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  1. 11 likes
    No, it wasn't. That's a story which was created decades later. But I bet you knew that.
  2. 9 likes
    Redskins and N***** grew out of different climates. If there were as few African Americans as there are American Indians, to the point where they're almost treated like they're extinct or unicorns or mythological, and if we'd spent the past 100 years normalizing the use of the N word for a sports team's name then there'd probably be a sports team called the N******. The only example I can think of is Africentric High School in Columbus, Ohio is called the Nubians and they used to have a large Africa decal on their football helmets. That's cool because they're celebrating their own heritage. If my high school in mayonnaise-white Dublin, Ohio were called the Nubians? Not cool at all.
  3. 9 likes
    I'd argue that goes back to who is choosing the name and whether it's appropriation discussion. If the high school of Native American Indian people is fine with using Redskins for themselves then I guess I can't argue, though there's been evidence posted in this thread that those names do some actual harm so one example of an anecdote traded with another backed up with some research into the issue. Now, the Washington Redskins are not a high school of Native Americans. The name was chosen by a famous racist and they appropriated the name for a team that was famously all-white. Also there are a lot of Native Americans who do want the NFL team to change regardless of that one high school. I don't see the high school and the NFL team as being in the same situation when they were both named with very different intentions by different people.
  4. 7 likes
    This thread has veered off-course. We've gone well beyond discussing the Cleveland Indians' decision to drop their Chief Wahoo logo and ventured into other territory. Therefore I'm locking this up. A reminder about an item from the boards' official guidelines:
  5. 7 likes
    Irish Catholics design "Fighting Irish" logo = self-deprecating. Whites design "red faced caricature" of a marginalized race = keeping foot on throat
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  7. 7 likes
    ...for anybody wondering where Soundofthrowingpennies went after he got booted off here...
  8. 7 likes
    You know what? I am all in on this now.
  9. 6 likes
    The Battle of Seattle "I love the smell of potential expansion in the morning". The rumour of Expansion is great for the creative juices. It offers up a new entity; a clean slate; a blank canvas. I'm gonna putter around with 9 different concepts. I'll explore the logos, uniforms, mascots, promotions and merchandise for each one. Some of the stuff, you'll have seen before in previous threads, but there'll be a ton of new material. It'll be a long one, so get comfortable, and let the "Battle of Seattle" begin... First up...The Seattle Metropolitans...
  10. 6 likes
    the comparisons of Wahoo to either the Notre Dame or Vikings logo are so purposefully ignorant and have been dealt with and dismissed so many times before, I don't know why you keep dignifying them when they get regurgitated YET AGAIN with any kind of response?
  11. 6 likes
    The Seattle Metropolitans The "Metropolitans" were Seattle's team in the old Pacific Coast Hockey Association (1915-1924). They were the first American team to win the Stanley Cup, when they defeated the Montreal Canadiens of the National Hockey Association in 1917. As the "Mets", they could just re-work their funky old 1917 unis... ...which would be cool, but let's try something different. I found a font by Josep Kelava of Australia called "Metropolis". It's a 1920-ish, Art Deco style that suggests skyscrapers... I reworked the "M" to make it a bit more Seattle-specific, and for the secondary, I designed a different version of the old "S" with the cascading S-E-A-T-T-L-E letters. As for colours...I'm a sucker for crisp and clean, one-colour-plus-white palettes. In the NHL we have red and white (Detroit), and blue and white (Toronto, Tampa), so why not a green and white entry. The "two-line" logo is reflected in the striping on the uniforms...
  12. 6 likes
    Frankly, it boggles my mind that the use of the "Chief Wahoo" logo has lasted as long as it has. Can anyone imagine Cleveland's Major League Baseball team being dubbed the Chinamen, with the franchise's primary logo being a caricature that depicted the namesake mascot with bright yellow skin, slanted slits for eyes, a pair of enormous buck teeth, his hair pulled back in a long queue, and wearing a conical bamboo hat? How about the Cleveland Jews, with a caricature logo featuring a mascot with a large hooked nose, a swarthy complexion, and traditional Hasidic sidelocks (payot)? Of course, such team identities would be roundly criticized. So, with that being the case, why has "Chief Wahoo" been granted a pass for so long?
  13. 6 likes
  14. 6 likes
    My dad is a lifelong Indians fans (and also a lifelong Reds fan. He's weird.) and he says "good riddance". He also thinks they should rename the team the "Mayflies" and is 100% serious. My stance has always been that it's better to air on the side of caution and listen to the offended parties because they feel the most when they see the logo. My opinion in the matter isn't important, though I happen to agree with them. Also :censored: like this http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/redfaceoff.jpg you really want to be on the same side with the dude in makeup? That's a weird hill to die on. I shall now address some talking points: "It's not a racist logo!" The people portrayed by the logo say it's racist. I'm going to take their word for it. "BUT MY FRIEND IS NATIVE AMERICAN AND HE LIKES THE LOGO!" slash "BUT I'M NATIVE AMERICAN AND I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE LOGO" I'm also not offended by everything that I probably should be as a person in my position, but I am capable of empathy and I can understand why some people might take umbrage with certain issues. If people also of Native American heritage don't like the logo then he/you should try to understand why. The pain for some of not seeing the logo on a major league team pales in comparison to the pain that some Native Americans feel when they do see the logo on a major league team. You really can't go wrong when you air on the side of decency. "It's just a logo. Get over it." You get over it. It's just a logo. Hmm. funny how that works both ways. "LOL THE FIGHTING IRISH LOGO OFFENDS ME I'M IRISH LMFAO mSMDH SJW CUCKS" Buddy, if you can't tell the difference between someone naming something after themselves versus someone appropriating another culture (WITH A RACIST CARTOON LOGO) then you're not equipped to participate in this discussion. The reason they should've just done this 20 years ago is because by now it wouldn't be an issue. People will move on and the team will figure out a way to carve out a brand that doesn't rely on a racist cartoon. They might lose a fan or two, but it likely won't move the needle at all and will end up being a net positive in the end.
  15. 6 likes
    Are you honestly suggesting that the world moves forward and evolves in ways that are subtle and nuanced and that all changers in our vernacular are not just the will of a PC agenda?
  16. 6 likes
    Long overdue. I think one reason logos like this have survived so long over other caricatures like Sambo, is that Native Americans are so marginalized in society that you can spend your whole life without seeing one or hearing from any of them. They have historically been brutalized and to this day are still pushed to the very edge of society and taken advantage of time and again by the US government, you can't claim to 'honor' them with sports teams while largely ignoring their very existence.
  17. 6 likes
    Again, if that’s that’s how they want to represent their own culture, I don’t think anyone has a problem with it. A line of rich white men (from George Preston Marshall to Dan Snyder) representing, owning a trademark for, and monetarily profiting from a culture or cultures that are not theirs is most definitely not the same situation. A name that is not a slur, like Indians or Braves, may or may not be tolerable depending on who you ask, but it’s still kind of silly to hang onto when there are other options that are perfectly appropriate. The party line is that these teams are honoring their namesakes. If you insist on using another human culture as the focal point of your brand, then you should be prepared to donate the profits from the use of that cultural imagery to better that culture; to actually honor them.
  18. 5 likes
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  20. 5 likes
    It's a separate matter whether or not Dan Snyder can be compelled to not use Redskins. Dropping that name is still the right thing to do. We've seen it time and again that fanbases eventually get over the name change. Marquette got over it, St. John's got over it, Miami (OH) got over it. The second that Washington Redtails make the Super Bowl all the belly aching goes out the window. As it stands right now, the Washington football club gets its public perception periodically dragged through the mud every fall when the rest of the country rolls its eyes at how dumb it is to still be using a slur for the team name. Change then name and all that goes away permanently and 5 years and one playoff birth later nobody will care.
  21. 5 likes
    The difference, as I see it, between the use of Native American-themed team identities and that of the Fighting Irish is quite simple. By and large, in this country, the people who have historically made the decisions to brand various professional, college, and high school athletic teams with Native American names and iconography have not been Native Americans themselves. Rather, they've been Caucasians who have misappropriated names and symbols tied to Native American culture and elected to use said cultural property - often, deeply meaningful to the tribal nations it belongs to - to market what amounts to a fairly frivolous pursuit... the staging of athletic competition. Worse still, is when non-Native Americans have passed off bastardized and caricatured takes - i.e. Chief Wahoo - on purported Native American culture in order to brand athletic teams and programs. The Notre Dame Fighting Irish? Historically, a significant percentage of the people calling the shots about adopting, embracing and maintaining said identity have been of Irish American extraction themselves. So, it isn't as if Irish culture has been misappropriated and twisted by members of some other culture altogether. Rather, at most, it can be argued that a not insignificant number of Irish Americans have been complicit in bastardizing their own culture by championing the Fighting Irish brand. Also, utilizing a mythical creature - the leprechaun - as a mascot is a bit different than using depictions of actual Native Americans.
  22. 5 likes
    The poll's sampling was flawed: The Washington Post asked people who identified as Native American, not enrolled members of nations/tribes. The vast majority of respondents believed their great-grandmother was a Cherokee princess <sarcasm>
  23. 5 likes
    No disrespect, but I couldn’t care less about the teams history. I care about the history of those marginalized people more. They are the only group of people that has their imagery/likeness used like this and it’s because they didn’t have the numbers to stop it. Outside of the few Native started uses or uses where the Natives are collaborators (those schools you mentioned), the imagery is being used or created by entities with no ties to those people. We don’t need this anymore and if it does exist it should do so when the Native people do it. Also, those polls sound suspect. 90% of how many total?
  24. 5 likes
    As always, @BestFansStLouis reminds America that giant chunks of Missouri and Illinois are chock-full of braindead lumps:
  25. 5 likes
    It’s a numbers game. African-Americans, for as bad as they’ve had it, weren’t pushed to the brink of extinction via state-sponsored genocide like Natives were. The result is that, following emancipation, the black community had the numbers and visible leaders to pressure society towards meaningful change. Natives lacked those numbers and visible leaders. They’re just now able to raise awareness because social media has helped amplify the voices of people who would otherwise still be marginalised. If you had a pro sports team named the “N**gers”? You can bet the Civil Rights movement would have rightfully swept that away. Natives lacked the ability to make that impact. At least until recently. Now? “Redskins” is only normalised as a result of the team having its moniker blared into living rooms annually. Which it was only able to do for so long because Natives lacked the numbers to push for meaningful change.
  26. 5 likes
  27. 5 likes
    Again, I think that's largely due to the First Nations having been removed from our society. Few of us interact with them on a regular basis, so the slurs don't seem as "real" to us. I for one have been wondering if I should be typing the word. I'm certainly not comfortable with it.
  28. 5 likes
    Here's another one: "But the studies show that Native Americans aren't offended by it, in fact they like it!" Show them this American Psychological Association study, which says that they negatively impact the mental health of marginalized peoples. Here's a basic summary from the article. That's kind of damning, I'd say.
  29. 5 likes
    Yeah, this. If derogatory names and racist caricatures don't seem to sting, that's because the government was so successful at removing the First Nations from places where most of us would interact with them on a daily basis. Wasn't all that long ago when gay slurs were considered relatively harmless, since so many gay people were closeted. People didn't have any idea that so many of their friends, colleagues and family members were affected by the slurs. The more who came out, and consequently the more the average person knew that s/he knew, the less okay those names became.
  30. 5 likes
    If they give up the TM then anyone can make wahoo gear and people will buy it either as a protest or just because they like it. Keeping the TM may not be about making lots of $ off of throwback gear, it may just be about keeping it away from others.
  31. 5 likes
    Yes, they could, for instance, complain that all their favorite racist logos are being taken away. Damn complainers.
  32. 5 likes
    I doubt it, as Chief Black Hawk is portrayed in a dignified manner, not as a caraciture.
  33. 4 likes
    Quick little concept here, with the NBA All Star Game approaching soon. The jerseys that were unveiled (or leaked, not really sure where we stand on that) were plain awful. I decided to whip up a quick concept using gold and silver as the main colors, and here's what I came up with. On the back collar is the NBA logo with "L" and "A" on either side, and on the chest is a star with the number of ASG the player has been selected to. I had originally tried to put the number of stars somewhere on the jersey, but with guys who have a lot of games under their belt (LeBron and his 14) it's hard to fit that many stars on a jersey in a good looking way. Anyways, here it is.
  34. 4 likes
    I've really warmed up to the Knicks City uniforms, I was expecting a trainwreck when it turned out they were going to be navy but they look great
  35. 4 likes
    Blake wearing 23 in Detroit since 32 is hanging in the rafters
  36. 4 likes
    That’s even more incredibly stupid.
  37. 4 likes
    First Take, that American cornerstone of sports journalism without sensationalism. Max Kellerman needs to go back to boxing where nobody needs to hear what he has to say, even by accident.
  38. 4 likes
    I think it's a fine name.
  39. 4 likes
    The remaining assets of the Spiders were sold after the 1899 disaster and merged with a team in the minor American/Western league until it became a major league, with the club being called the Lake Shores, the Blues, and ultimately, the Indians. It’s not tidy, but there is lineage there.
  40. 4 likes
    Just within the past month, there's been a fracas at U of I all over again because another white boy showed up at a basketball game dressed up as Chief Illiniwek. Acting like a 1940s cartoon To Own The Libs. Maybe he can find a friend on Reddit to re-enact the talking crows from Dumbo next.
  41. 4 likes
    Right? The NFL team existing for all these years has normalized the use of something that shouldn't have been normalized. If they'd been called the Washington Savages way back when instead we'd probably have a bunch of high schools past and still present called the Savages. The DC football team's had a very real influence on what we've grown up accepting. If they'd chosen to name themselves the Washington Warriors maybe this could've been avoided. That leads to the point Admiral is making that the meaning of "Washington Redskins" has evolved to mean a football player from Washington and I see his point, but just the fact that it's still being debated about as a racist term kind of disproves that it's fully shifted meaning and still holds some bad connotations. Am I wrong there?
  42. 4 likes
    Very true. Nobody in their right mind would touch the N-word for a team. I’m black and I don’t type it because I know the censor would catch it anyhow. I guess that’s the problem. They are on a different playing field, but I do have to question why a little. Is it because the number of Natives to argue against it are so small that a narrative created by a racist white owner could stand the test of time thus far? A team called the N-words wouldn’t stand because black people wouldn’t have it, we have voices in high places, and have the numbers. I don’t know that can be said for Natives. You aren’t wrong, and going back to my last post, maybe it has evolved so far it doesn’t sting for that high school or others. Just like there are some black people that don’t mind their white friend using the word because he is “down.” I’m not one those along with countless others. It seems like for that link you posted there are a few in the other direction. That’s all I’m getting at. This is healthy though.
  43. 4 likes
    If you're going to post stuff from Instagram, please post it so that it automatically embeds. From your IG home page, click on the post you want to share, then open the menu in the bottom right corner of the box that pops up and click on Go To Post. Copy that URL into the reply box here on the boards and it should automatically embed. (Basically the URL you posted minus the ? and everything after.) Also, I'm curious as to why you're posting photos of your computer screen. I understand you might not want your designs stolen, but it's hard to see the details and be able to give good feedback with this medium. Personally, I like some context with concepts, too. Rather than just post an image (or a link to an image), post it and tell us a little bit about why you made some of the choices you made. Do you have a particular affinity for the Washington Bullets identity? Are you trying to stay true to their previous logos or adding your own twists? Why go with the colours you went with? Why go with the fonts you went with? Things like this will help you get more and better feedback.
  44. 4 likes
    Would you say that the n-word is pretty tame if some African-Americans use it?
  45. 4 likes
    I was gonna say... One reason I’m so opposed to Wahoo as a logo is because I did the “how would I like it if....?” experiment. I can’t claim to speak for Natives and what they may deem offensive or not, but I can certainly imagine what it would be like if there were a team named “the Jews” with a Jewish version of Wahoo as the logo. I wouldn’t like that at all.
  46. 4 likes
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    The Seahawks change from royal blue/silver to that ungodly shade of monochrome blue was pretty drastic.
  48. 4 likes
    The Bucs going from creamsicle to pewter is the only example I can think of.
  49. 4 likes
    If Cleveland ever re-adopts the Spiders nickname...
  50. 4 likes
    That's because Lucky the Leprechaun is a Leprechaun. Leprechauns are not real, unlike Native Americans. So the comparison breaks down pretty quickly.
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