Minor League Hockey Shake-up...coming

[kiwi_canadian]

45 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

I would think they'd hit up Abbotsford, before doubling down in Vancouver proper. A Canucks farm team would probably be a bigger draw than the Heat were.

 

Victoria is, easily, the more attractive option, but history has shown us that Canadian markets tend to follow their Junior teams, over the AHL. I doubt the AHL could compete with the Royals.

 

They might have a better shot at Seattle, if they can find a suitible home, or just joining the California fray.

That's the entire reason the WHL is back in Victoria. Goes back to the Jets coming back to the NHL. The rumor was that the Canucks would set up their AHL team in Victoria but the WHL didn't want to lose Victoria as a market. RG Properties number one goal when they built SOFMC was that they wanted a WHL tenant. Once the Chilliwack Bruins became available RG jumped at them and applied to move them to Victoria right away. Once the WHL approved the move, they folded the Salmon Kings of the ECHL. If the WHL blocked the purchase or move of the Bruins, then Victoria would have the AHL. I think the best move was the WHL because of what was said before with Canadians more supportive of the CHL rather than an NHL affiliated team.

[bosrs1]

2 hours ago, kiwi_canadian said:

That's the entire reason the WHL is back in Victoria. Goes back to the Jets coming back to the NHL. The rumor was that the Canucks would set up their AHL team in Victoria but the WHL didn't want to lose Victoria as a market. RG Properties number one goal when they built SOFMC was that they wanted a WHL tenant. Once the Chilliwack Bruins became available RG jumped at them and applied to move them to Victoria right away. Once the WHL approved the move, they folded the Salmon Kings of the ECHL. If the WHL blocked the purchase or move of the Bruins, then Victoria would have the AHL. I think the best move was the WHL because of what was said before with Canadians more supportive of the CHL rather than an NHL affiliated team.

 

I agree, it would make more sense to "join the California fray" or perhaps look at Portland? I mean Seattle would make sense to look at too if not for the persistent rumors of them getting their own NHL team.

[Burmy]

6 minutes ago, bosrs1 said:

 

I agree, it would make more sense to "join the California fray" or perhaps look at Portland? I mean Seattle would make sense to look at too if not for the persistent rumors of them getting their own NHL team.

I wonder how good of a hockey venue the Golden 1 Center is?

[bosrs1]

3 hours ago, MBurmy said:

I wonder how good of a hockey venue the Golden 1 Center is?

Since it has no ice abilities I'd say it's a pretty poor one.

 

Moda Arena in Portland does however have an ice plant. Only issue there is the same as Victoria, WHL already has the Winterhawks in town.

 

Fresno has an ice capable arena, but it may be Vegas' choice for their AHL team.

 

Seattle has Key Arena of course which can host hockey and no competing WHL team in the building. Issue there is the a fore mentioned potential NHL team however. That and the WHL is again already in town out in Kent. And I get the feeling these towns prefer the WHL to the AHL for whatever reason based on Victoria and other's reaction to WHL over ECHL or AHL.

 

[BeerGuyJordan]

23 hours ago, bosrs1 said:

Since it has no ice abilities I'd say it's a pretty poor one.

 

Moda Arena in Portland does however have an ice plant. Only issue there is the same as Victoria, WHL already has the Winterhawks in town.

 

Fresno has an ice capable arena, but it may be Vegas' choice for their AHL team.

 

Seattle has Key Arena of course which can host hockey and no competing WHL team in the building. Issue there is the a fore mentioned potential NHL team however. That and the WHL is again already in town out in Kent. And I get the feeling these towns prefer the WHL to the AHL for whatever reason based on Victoria and other's reaction to WHL over ECHL or AHL.

 

 

 

 

 

With Portland and Seattle, I get the impression that they support WHL because it's there, and that's all they have, from those I've talked to. It sounds like it might be a better chance of breaking in. Seattle is right in the Canucks' backyard, so I say the chance is worth it, for the ease of call-ups. An NHL team happening still gives you a minimum of 2 years, in the area, and it isn't like the odds are an empty net. Just go with brandingnthat can move, if you have to. If they don't do Abbotsford or Seattle, I say join the California fray. At least that way you are spending less on the team's travel. Portland gives you neither benefit, so I don't think it's a good call.

 

Fresno isn't ice capable, anymore. The city has also stated they're content to not get back into the minor league hockey merry-go-round.

[The_Admiral]

Canadians preferring major-junior to the AHL is a fairly recent development. I suspect TSN spurred the change in the late '90s when they got really heavy into the World Juniors in lieu of the NHL. The AHL and OHL co-existed in Ontario, and the AHL had a big presence in the Maritimes until about the end of the millennium. There was never any history of triple-A hockey in Western Canada other than the Manitoba Moose, so of course they've preferred the Dub.

[Sodboy13]

So if the Blues put a franchise in Kansas City, that means The Vegas Whatevers will have to affiliate with the Wolves, right? Hey, it worked out great for the Thrashers! 

[dfwabel]

6 hours ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

 

Fresno isn't ice capable, anymore. The city has also stated they're content to not get back into the minor league hockey merry-go-round.

SaveMart Center still has a chiller, but weekend dates are impossible to get with Fresno State basketball since when the men's team is away, typically the women are home and vice versa. Parking is difficult too.

 

OTOH, the university's auxiliary corporation may be looking for revenue to still pay off the arena bonds' principal. Heck, their Campus Pointe project broke ground six years late.

[bosrs1]

One thing to consider is how are the California teams really doing off ice for their NHL owners? I mean by all accounts San Diego and Ontario are doing great attendance wise and presumably financially. Besides that of course to some extent the NHL teams subsidize the AHL teams they own in the direct ownership model that all the California teams use even if they don't break even on their own. But how are the other 3 really doing in Stockton, Bakersfield and particularly San Jose?

 

I mean I'd not attended any San Diego Gulls away games until this past weekend in San Jose and I was shocked at how empty the SAP Center was for the game. The Sunday game in particular the Barracuda are claiming 4322 were in attendance. But unless about 3900 of them were in the bathroom at the very same time for all 3 periods that number has got to be tickets distributed (ie: given away). Which means they're not making any money off of them. Now San Jose is in a unique situation in that they're really in the same building for convenience and their own fans are likely not that important to them, and if that's the case and they're willing to eat any losses associated with them so be it. But it just seems such a damn shame. I mean they have the upper deck curtained off and almost the entire home goal line area tarped off. And even then the crowd such as it was was very very sparse. In fact you can count it in some of the photos I took such as this one mid way through the first.

 

 

But what of Stockton and Bakersfield? How are they actually doing as going concerns?

[The_Admiral]

What a dick move it was for the Sharks to take their farm team out of a perfectly good AHL town like Woostah and have them play in an empty NHL arena. I think the endgame is to have them play in the same practice complex The NHL's Best Rec League will use.

[bosrs1]

46 minutes ago, the admiral said:

What a dick move it was for the Sharks to take their farm team out of a perfectly good AHL town like Woostah and have them play in an empty NHL arena. I think the endgame is to have them play in the same practice complex The NHL's Best Rec League will use.

 

I agree, Worcester got hosed for little return. I mean it was jarring for me as a Gulls season ticket holder. Gulls games have a feeling of being NHL lite. By that I mean the crowd is generally fairly large (we're averaging 8000 a game and I'd estimate that's not an exaggeration) but beyond that they're also really into it. We watched it happen over the first few month last season, fans who'd show up in other NHL jerseys eventually traded them in for Gulls gear (or in the case of the guy who sits behind me a Gulls kilt, war paint, and wig along with his jersey) regardless of their NHL loyalties. It's primarily an adult crowd who tend to take the game and its results relatively seriously (more so than Padres and Chargers fans do at any rate).

 

The "crowd" such as it was in San Jose seemed to consist primarily of families and Sharks fans looking for a cheap ticket (for example I got my seats for $6 off Stubhub and the team had $10 tickets available for purchase directly at the door for the comparable sections to my Gulls season tickets which face value at $27 each). And no one seemed particularly invested in what was going on ice. No one really got overly excited until the Barracuda had scored a goal or the shirt toss started. My NHL loyalties have been with the Sharks since their founding when I was in middle school so it pains me that they've done this to their AHL team.

[BeerGuyJordan]

Bakersfield and Stockton are doing well enough, as I understand it. I've talked to a few people who've been, as traveling away fans, and they generally described attendance as follows: 

 

San Jose: Sad

Stockton and Bakersfield: Decent

Ontario: Good

San Diego: Nuts, one guy said it's on par with Hershey.

 

It's still early, though. The Reign and Gulls have the advantage of being a pipeline to a "local" team. The novelty of hockey may wear off, in a few seasons, for the Condors and Heat.

 

San Jose really is just for convenience sake. In such a large MSA, I think it'd be crazy for the Sharks to not move their team somewhere else, in the Golden Gate area, eventually. That way, you keep the convenience, but can still sell some tickets. 

 

The Moose are actually an instance of the "in house feeder team" being a good call. With only 15,000 able to go to Jets games, there's still a big demand for Moose tix.

 

As far as Worcester goes, it's the ECHL's gain.

[bosrs1]

9 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

Bakersfield and Stockton are doing well enough, as I understand it. I've talked to a few people who've been, as traveling away fans, and they generally described attendance as follows: 

 

San Jose: Sad

Stockton and Bakersfield: Decent

Ontario: Good

San Diego: Nuts, one guy said it's on par with Hershey.

 

It's still early, though. The Reign and Gulls have the advantage of being a pipeline to a "local" team. The novelty of hockey may wear off, in a few seasons, for the Condors and Heat.

 

San Jose really is just for convenience sake. In such a large MSA, I think it'd be crazy for the Sharks to not move their team somewhere else, in the Golden Gate area, eventually. That way, you keep the convenience, but can still sell some tickets. 

 

The Moose are actually an instance of the "in house feeder team" being a good call. With only 15,000 able to go to Jets games, there's still a big demand for Moose tix.

 

As far as Worcester goes, it's the ECHL's gain.

 

How has it been down in Tucson in this inaugural year? The Roadrunners I'd presume have the similar leg up the Gulls and Reign do being relatively close to their parent club without stepping on its toes like the Barracuda apparently do.

 

And I agree, the Moose are an example of where the doubling up can work in large part because the Jets arena is the smallest in the NHL in a fairly enthusiastic market who could likely support a bigger NHL arena's capacity. But at the same time, the Sharks are running at 100% capacity too, and their ticket prices would make most people gag (I really wanted to go Saturday but I couldn't justify paying $70 for nosebleed seats), so you'd think they'd similarly get overflow. But apparently that's not the case as you friend's description of their attendance being sad is pretty accurate. I hope in coming years they explore other options in either the Bay Area or NorCal. Maybe work something out with Calgary to take over Stockton and move the Heat somewhere closer to Calgary. Particularly if Vancouver moves their AHL team west.

 

Also agree that ECHL was smart to pounce on Worcester. I think the California move by AHL was the right one, but at the same time most of the AHL markets that lost teams didn't deserve to be sans any team like Worcester was initially.

[BeerGuyJordan]

2 hours ago, bosrs1 said:

 

How has it been down in Tucson in this inaugural year? The Roadrunners I'd presume have the similar leg up the Gulls and Reign do being relatively close to their parent club without stepping on its toes like the Barracuda apparently do.

 

And I agree, the Moose are an example of where the doubling up can work in large part because the Jets arena is the smallest in the NHL in a fairly enthusiastic market who could likely support a bigger NHL arena's capacity. But at the same time, the Sharks are running at 100% capacity too, and their ticket prices would make most people gag (I really wanted to go Saturday but I couldn't justify paying $70 for nosebleed seats), so you'd think they'd similarly get overflow. But apparently that's not the case as you friend's description of their attendance being sad is pretty accurate. I hope in coming years they explore other options in either the Bay Area or NorCal. Maybe work something out with Calgary to take over Stockton and move the Heat somewhere closer to Calgary. Particularly if Vancouver moves their AHL team west.

 

Also agree that ECHL was smart to pounce on Worcester. I think the California move by AHL was the right one, but at the same time most of the AHL markets that lost teams didn't deserve to be sans any team like Worcester was initially.

Tucson seems to be benefitting from the proximity, but the Coyotes don't have the following the Kings or Ducks do, in their territory. The attendance is actually picking up steam, as time progresses. It's horrible, but Cunningham's medical emergency, and the news story it became, may be the most crucial piece of PR the team has had, all season. I'm a season ticket holder, and doing everything I can to create more fans, but hockey in the desert is, truly, an uphill battle.

 

There are a few stark differences between SJ and Winnipeg. The Sharks are averaging 17,486. In a stadium with a max capacity of 17,562, that's a good figure, especially in a non-traditional market. But every game isn't a sell-out, most of the people who want to go to a Sharks game can, assuming they have the time and money. Nearly all of those regularly attending Barracuda games are doing so for the price tag, not because they love hockey, or are fans of the team. Putting your farm team in the same arena, under those circumstances, is basically setting it up to be a cashflow sinkhole.

 

Winnipeg, on the other hand has a sold out game. Every. Single. Game. They have a waiting list for season tickets. On top of driving up ticket costs, that means there are a lot of people out there who aren't able to go. The Moose benefit from being a local feeder team, overflow from the wait list, and the cost. That is a formula to make money. If, in 5-10 years, the Moose numbers start dwindling, they can always pack up the team and move them to Fargo, Duluth or Thunder Bay. All near enough for easy call ups.

 

Grabbing Stockton seems like it would be a better call, for San Jose, but I think Calgary would need a tempting alternative.

[The_Admiral]

Is Fort Collins still in the ECHL? That could work for Calgary, as could Salt Lake City. Maybe one and then the other considering the Flames and their AHL PATH OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION

[bosrs1]

12 hours ago, the admiral said:

Is Fort Collins still in the ECHL? That could work for Calgary, as could Salt Lake City. Maybe one and then the other considering the Flames and their AHL PATH OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION

 

Well hopefully something is worked out long term. Because San Jose is not sustainable where they are currently I'm sorry to say. I mean to illustrate the difference between a healthy Pacific market and a not healthy one, here is that weekend shot from San Jose compared with last night's (Tuesday) Gulls game in San Diego. And for reference the San Diego shot is from the busier press/penalty side of the arena looking toward the less full bench side (the upper red seat area just to the left edge of the shot an off camera is nearly full). San Jose by comparison is from the emptier bench side looking toward the busier press/penalty side.

 

San Jose (weekend game) - Announced attendance 4322

 

San Diego (Tuesday night game) - Announced attendance 6112

[mcj882000]

14 hours ago, the admiral said:

Is Fort Collins still in the ECHL? That could work for Calgary, as could Salt Lake City. Maybe one and then the other considering the Flames and their AHL PATH OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION

 

Then they'd be going full-circle, since for 10 years before the Saint John Flames came around, Calgary's minor-league affiliate was this old team.

[The_Admiral]

Huh, a team that dropped a word from its city name and used "Golden." At least it was an IHL team.

[bosrs1]

San Diego continues to prove it was a good idea. 

 

 

A sellout of 12,920 tonight vs San Jose

[dfwabel]

15 minutes ago, bosrs1 said:

San Diego continues to prove it was a good idea. 

 

 

A sellout of 12,920 tonight vs San Jose

Granted, I've not been at the SD Sports Arena since 2005, but what happens if/when they ask for facility improvements?