What type of new pro football league could survive? Share your buisness model!

[garydavison]

None.

The truest statement made on the thread so far. Saying we need more football is akin to saying we need more cigartee companies.

One forgets how violent football is, especially during non-football season. From the number of players who've been placed on IR in weeks 1-3 (broken arms/legs, dislocated elbows/hips), and the general pain they walk around in to the point which they self-medicate thorough OTC and prescribed drugs, excessive use of alcohol and the use of marijuana. Then we get into the issues of concussions and CTE which can occur while they are playing. There is a messageboard vocal minority who want alt-football because there are former college players without jobs. That does not equate to people buying tickets.

I'm not sure that there's any business model that would sustain a new pro football league. Perhaps long ago, before so many markets were taken by the NFL, but not today.

People confuse love of the NFL with a general love of football. Truth is, Americans love their pro league and a handful of semi-professional collegiate conferences. We don't love the sport itself enough to want to support it at every possible level.

Baseball can thrive in leagues of any size, with a team in every town in the country. The bankruptcy courts are stocked with rich hopefuls who thought the same was true of football.

Exactly, it is easier to stay in business when a parent club pays the players and you have 60+ opportunities to earn your revenue, unlike a football season.

My second scenario would be to change the CFL. Keep the same 3 letters but modify it to Continental Football League. I would switch over to american rules and field. Keep the 9 Canadian teams and add 5 american teams in nothern markets to have 14 teams. Keep the current CFL salary structure. Keep the 18 game schedule and July start. More teams would make for more revenue, possibly a U.S T.V contract, more variety..

Well with the current CFL salary structure I read teams need 24 000 fans per game to break even. So these U.S markets should be able to attain this after a few years and add in a little extra cash from U.S T.V.

Not sure what you mean by templated jerseys but I would get rid of the advertising on CFL jerseys.

It is still very "off-brand" football and you are very unaware of the hidden costs of having a football franchise and business in general. 24K is hard to do for a large percentage of the NCAA when some schools have over a century of community ties, so why would you think that an expanded CFL would have that much success after "a few years"?

Well for one the Baltimore Stallions were the only CFL U.S team up North and they averaged over 35 000 fans one year and over 31 000 fans the next. The fact that it's pro football and good calibre would give it a chance I think.

So Gary has some points worth considering. An eight team league of some kind spread out in the North and Midwest would be a better bet. My thinking would also have it start up during the week before the Super Bowl and end sometime around mid-May, with games primarily on Saturday and Sunday, maybe a Monday night one as well. This way, you capitalize on sports fans who aren't crazy about basketball and/or hockey since both sports seem to lose a chunk of sports fans for one reason or another. A small salary cap would help out, paired with a TV deal on a cable network who has branched out to sports before, but maybe doesn't have a huge hand in it now. A channel like TBS, Spike or the CW comes to mind.

I like this idea.

[dfwabel]

The Baltimore Stallions was some 20 years ago...which is essentially before the internet was in US homes! In 1995, only 20% of public libraries were "wired". The world has changed vastly since the people of Baltimore welcomed that team.

As the digital revolution took place, the other entertainment options available, like XBox1/Netflix/Hulu and the public uses them at home as opposed to going out.

[garydavison]

The Baltimore Stallions was some 20 years ago...which is essentially before the internet was in US homes! In 1995, only 20% of public libraries were "wired". The world has changed vastly since the people of Baltimore welcomed that team.

As the digital revolution took place, the other entertainment options available, like XBox1/Netflix/Hulu and the public uses them at home as opposed to going out.

Isn't average attendance for sports in general higher today than it was in the 90's?

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Not sure that I'd want to watch it, but an 18-24 age range league would be interesting. If there was enough money to pay healthy guaranteed salaries ($200k at top end? Guaranteed $75k floor?), you might be able to make a go of it. Players won't get rich, but it would certainly make some players think twice about giving their labor away to State U when they can be earning a living wage doing what they'd be doing anyway.

For its faults, the NFL is pretty agnostic about the source of talent; if you have AFL or CFL experience and distinguish yourself in camp, you have a shot.

So while I don't think competing with the NFL is a good idea, making high schoolers think twice about risking their future livelihoods without compensation could be disruptive to the existing landscape.

[dfwabel]

New league's should compete against the NCAA first, then go after the big bad NFL.

Interesting view. New pro teams could possibly work in NCAA markets but I think they have a better chance in the spring.

You must be too young to ever hear of the AAFL (All American Football League).

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2008/03/Issue-117/Sports-Media/Blog-Hound-AAFL-To-Fold-Before-It-Starts.aspx?hl=News%20Opinions&sc=0

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gators/content/florida-wont-seek-legal-action-if-aafl-folds/2017306

[DelayedPenalty]

The only professional football model that I can see working alongside the NCAA and NFL would be a true development league with NFL backing. Take the "practice squad" idea and expand it to a full roster of potential callups. It would poach talent from the CFL and AFL, but I don't see the NFL caring about that too much.

[garydavison]

New league's should compete against the NCAA first, then go after the big bad NFL.

Interesting view. New pro teams could possibly work in NCAA markets but I think they have a better chance in the spring.

You must be too young to ever hear of the AAFL (All American Football League).

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2008/03/Issue-117/Sports-Media/Blog-Hound-AAFL-To-Fold-Before-It-Starts.aspx?hl=News%20Opinions&sc=0

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gators/content/florida-wont-seek-legal-action-if-aafl-folds/2017306

I've heard of it. I usually follow startup leagues. I would like to see one survive.

[kewp80]

The only professional football model that I can see working alongside the NCAA and NFL would be a true development league with NFL backing. Take the "practice squad" idea and expand it to a full roster of potential callups. It would poach talent from the CFL and AFL, but I don't see the NFL caring about that too much.

Agreed. This is really the only way I can see another football league being successful in the states. Still then, you could argue that major college football is basically the NFL's minor league, and if the NFL did make a developmental league in the states wouldn't it have to play in the fall and have to compete with the NFL, NCAA, and High School football directly? That's why I think NFL Europe was great. It attempted to take the sport to new markets, while being developmental as well.

[B-Rich]

Another thing to look at I terms of the "success" of the USFL is not only its spring/summer season, but its two (2) levels of competition back in the 1980s when it existed .

1. First of all, you had USFL locations that were not served by the NFL in the fall, and as such were prime spots for alt pro football league teams. At various times for the three-year life of the USFL you had:

- Memphis

- Jacksonville

- Birmingham

- Oklahoma

- Orlando

- Arizona

- Oakland

- Baltimore

- San Antonio

- Portland

2. But in addition, you had the following markets which DID have NFL football, but did not have MLB baseball teams; thus lessening the competition for the entertainment dollar in the springtime:

- Denver

- Washington

- Tampa Bay

- New Orleans

Compare that to today. 3 of the 4 "baseball" cities above have baseball teams now, and of the 10 non-NFL cities, 4 now have NFL teams (5 if you stretch and consider Memphis part of "Tennessee" for the Titans). As such, I don't think a spring USFL-type league would work today.

[kewp80]

Last I knew Memphis was a part of Tennessee Plus didn't they play some of they're games there when they were still building their stadium?

Anyways, you brought up a good point with the major cities now having baseball. Plus most major cities that don't have MLB teams at least have AAA or AA teams that you would have to compete with.

[garydavison]

Another thing to look at I terms of the "success" of the USFL is not only its spring/summer season, but its two (2) levels of competition back in the 1980s when it existed .

1. First of all, you had USFL locations that were not served by the NFL in the fall, and as such were prime spots for alt pro football league teams. At various times for the three-year life of the USFL you had:

- Memphis

- Jacksonville

- Birmingham

- Oklahoma

- Orlando

- Arizona

- Oakland

- Baltimore

- San Antonio

- Portland

2. But in addition, you had the following markets which DID have NFL football, but did not have MLB baseball teams; thus lessening the competition for the entertainment dollar in the springtime:

- Denver

- Washington

- Tampa Bay

- New Orleans

Compare that to today. 3 of the 4 "baseball" cities above have baseball teams now, and of the 10 non-NFL cities, 4 now have NFL teams (5 if you stretch and consider Memphis part of "Tennessee" for the Titans). As such, I don't think a spring USFL-type league would work today.

Good post. I agree to a certain extent but the door for a spring league in Birmingham, Memphis, Oklahoma, Orlando, San Antonio and Portland is still open. LA has zero pro football teams. New York or New Jersey could support a spring team as well. Add to this markets like Hartford with a very recent 40 000 seat stadium...

[dfwabel]

Another thing to look at I terms of the "success" of the USFL is not only its spring/summer season, but its two (2) levels of competition back in the 1980s when it existed .

1. First of all, you had USFL locations that were not served by the NFL in the fall, and as such were prime spots for alt pro football league teams. At various times for the three-year life of the USFL you had:

- Memphis

- Jacksonville

- Birmingham

- Oklahoma

- Orlando

- Arizona

- Oakland

- Baltimore

- San Antonio

- Portland

2. But in addition, you had the following markets which DID have NFL football, but did not have MLB baseball teams; thus lessening the competition for the entertainment dollar in the springtime:

- Denver

- Washington

- Tampa Bay

- New Orleans

Compare that to today. 3 of the 4 "baseball" cities above have baseball teams now, and of the 10 non-NFL cities, 4 now have NFL teams (5 if you stretch and consider Memphis part of "Tennessee" for the Titans). As such, I don't think a spring USFL-type league would work today.

Good post. I agree to a certain extent but the door for a spring league in Birmingham, Memphis, Oklahoma, Orlando, San Antonio and Portland is still open. LA has zero pro football teams. New York or New Jersey could support a spring team as well. Add to this markets like Hartford with a very recent 40 000 seat stadium...

Every new league which lands in Birmingham ends up in a more decrepit venue than the former team and had even poorer attendance. San Antonio now has FBS football, Orlando now has an additional NFL team within driving distance (JAX), a FBS football team too (which they did not have at the time of the Renegades). OKC has a semi-suburb in Norman, which takes care of their need and even the AFL did not work there.

[garydavison]

Another thing to look at I terms of the "success" of the USFL is not only its spring/summer season, but its two (2) levels of competition back in the 1980s when it existed .

1. First of all, you had USFL locations that were not served by the NFL in the fall, and as such were prime spots for alt pro football league teams. At various times for the three-year life of the USFL you had:

- Memphis

- Jacksonville

- Birmingham

- Oklahoma

- Orlando

- Arizona

- Oakland

- Baltimore

- San Antonio

- Portland

2. But in addition, you had the following markets which DID have NFL football, but did not have MLB baseball teams; thus lessening the competition for the entertainment dollar in the springtime:

- Denver

- Washington

- Tampa Bay

- New Orleans

Compare that to today. 3 of the 4 "baseball" cities above have baseball teams now, and of the 10 non-NFL cities, 4 now have NFL teams (5 if you stretch and consider Memphis part of "Tennessee" for the Titans). As such, I don't think a spring USFL-type league would work today.

Good post. I agree to a certain extent but the door for a spring league in Birmingham, Memphis, Oklahoma, Orlando, San Antonio and Portland is still open. LA has zero pro football teams. New York or New Jersey could support a spring team as well. Add to this markets like Hartford with a very recent 40 000 seat stadium...

Every new league which lands in Birmingham ends up in a more decrepit venue than the former team and had even poorer attendance. San Antonio now has FBS football, Orlando now has an additional NFL team within driving distance (JAX), a FBS football team too (which they did not have at the time of the Renegades). OKC has a semi-suburb in Norman, which takes care of their need and even the AFL did not work there.

I disagree. Legion Field is perfectly available for spring football. I don't think FBS football hurts spring football's chance. Quite the contrary. It shows love for the game of football. Once the NCAA season ends, what do these fans have? AAA baseball? Quite a few football fans don;t like baseball. And many others like it but not nearly as much as they like football. Birmingham and Memphis were two USFL markets that thrived with plenty of NCAA football around them. Even Birmingham and Memphis CFL teams got decent attendance untill the NCAA season started. I think there is definitely a market for football in the spring in NCAA markets.

Jacksonville is a 2 hour drive from Orlando. Not exactly close by. Both Orlando and Jacksonville do not have MLB teams. The Jaguars also suck. The USFL had teams in Orlando and Jacksonville at the same time.

Markets like Hartford, Las Vegas and Omaha showed interest in a badly marketed UFL that played in the fall. Imagine what these markets could do in the spring.

CFL is never going to go back to American teams. And it's also never going to allow itself to change it's entire business model and history so that in can compete with the NFL. The CFL has carved out a pretty comfortable football niche.

Well I don't think my CFL plan will ever happen but it is a buisness and if they judge it would make more money I think they would go for it. Did the CFL care about it's history when it expanded to Memphis and company?

[garydavison]

If a new league is going to survive, it needs to start regionally to build up rivalry/interest. The problem is that all of the open markets worth putting a team in (Vegas, LA, Portland, Omaha, Birmingham, Hartford, Orlando, Norfolk) are all scattered around the map. The markets are there for a league to take, but it's the putting it all together part that sank the UFL and would be the biggest obstacle to forming a successful product

Very interesting point you bring up. Rivalries is very important for any league! Rivalries often take years to build up so you can't just create one unless you have two teams close enough geographically. I imagine LA-Vegas could be a regional rivalry.....besides that if you put a team in New Jersey or New York it could be a rival with Hartford? But for the most part these markets would be scathered and lack rivalry untill they build one up...

[monkeypower]

CFL is never going to go back to American teams. And it's also never going to allow itself to change it's entire business model and history so that in can compete with the NFL. The CFL has carved out a pretty comfortable football niche.

Well I don't think my CFL plan will ever happen but it is a buisness and if they judge it would make more money I think they would go for it. Did the CFL care about it's history when it expanded to Memphis and company?

They did actually. They were in danger of going under financially and the expansion to the US gave the CFL the expansion fees from each teams. The Americans teams actually helped save the CFL because it was around a million dollars (IIRC) for each team. If the CFL wanted more business, they'd expand to more places in Canada.

There's very little chance of a combined American-Canadian football league that will start. There's even less of a chance that the CFL is going to be the one to spearhead the effort and disband the CFL.

[garydavison]

CFL is never going to go back to American teams. And it's also never going to allow itself to change it's entire business model and history so that in can compete with the NFL. The CFL has carved out a pretty comfortable football niche.

Well I don't think my CFL plan will ever happen but it is a buisness and if they judge it would make more money I think they would go for it. Did the CFL care about it's history when it expanded to Memphis and company?

They did actually. They were in danger of going under financially and the expansion to the US gave the CFL the expansion fees from each teams. The Americans teams actually helped save the CFL because it was around a million dollars (IIRC) for each team. If the CFL wanted more business, they'd expand to more places in Canada.

There's very little chance of a combined American-Canadian football league that will start. There's even less of a chance that the CFL is going to be the one to spearhead the effort and disband the CFL.

I agree. Hardly a chance that this would ever happen but it's something I'd like to see happen. Ever since NFL loan the CFL seems in better shape.

I'd like to see them get to 12 teams one day. I can only think of 2 Canadian markets to add teams, Quebec City and Halifax. But both don't have suitable stadiums at the moment. Adding another team in Southern Ontario is a bad idea as both the Argos and TieCats struggle to get 20 000 fans per game. And you could make an argument for moncton but I think Atlantic Canada would be better off with just one team.

[monkeypower]

I don't think the NFL ever loaned the CFL money.

[garydavison]

I don't think the NFL ever loaned the CFL money.

''The initial agreement was reached in 1997, when the CFL was at one of its lowest financial ebbs and was kept afloat by a US$3-million loan from its wealthy southern neighbour.''

http://www.nationalpost.com/ends+working+agreement+with/563856/story.html

3 mil loan in 97 with working agreement.

[monkeypower]

I don't think the NFL ever loaned the CFL money.

''The initial agreement was reached in 1997, when the CFL was at one of its lowest financial ebbs and was kept afloat by a US$3-million loan from its wealthy southern neighbour.''

http://www.nationalpost.com/ends+working+agreement+with/563856/story.html

3 mil loan in 97 with working agreement.

Hm, I didn't know that.

[jaha32]

In my mind, an ideal model would be one where the teams are regionally located, as others stated above, to limit travel costs. Have a 4-6 team division in the densely populated northeast. Then have another 4-6 team division in the south, just spanning a few states. These two divisions never play each other until the championship, so teams never travel more than a 6-10 hour bus ride during the season. If it goes well after a few seasons, possibly add a Midwest division, but again, teams never travel outside their regional division. The west is just too sparsely populated to get a division early on.The regular season would be about 10-12 games in smaller venues holding just 5,000-15,000 seats. Salaries have to be extremely low, maybe even semi-pro at its infancy, which means you won't draw big name coaches, but you have to start somewhere, and just hope it gains momentum.

But even as I say this I realize that if planning a sustainable model was really that easy, it would probably have already happened.