tigerslionspistonshabs

Alternate SPORTS! History Thread

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3 hours ago, DnBronc said:

 

I don't know. However, without Finley as owner and with Bill Torrey as GM, their odds probably would have been a lot better.

Maybe the Seals are good enough that there is no need for expansion in 1991 to San Jose due to the Seals own the market. Maybe if Bill Torrey stays with the Seals, the New York Islanders are just another team stuck with constant losing seasons, never get successful and win 4 straight cup. Just a theory though.

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On 1/8/2018 at 7:58 PM, B-Rich said:

And San Antonio Dragons, San Francisco Spiders, Atlanta Knights, Las Vegas Thunder, & Indianapolis Ice.

 

The actual point here is, "Assume the IHL survived its poorly-thought-through attempt to compete with the NHL in the mid-90s,"

 

(One of the things this does is retcon the NHL's Sun Belt expansion, which was intended to kill the IHL, out of existence.)

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Here's one to ponder if it hasn't already been bounced around on these 27+ pages thus far...

 

On July 29, 1986, in Room 318 of the United States District Courthouse in New York City, Patricia McCabe, foreman of the jury in USFL v. NFL, reads a verdict in which the NFL is not only guilty of one count of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, but that instead of awarding $1 in punitive damages to the USFL, the jury awards the league the full $440 million it had been seeking - trebeled under federal law to $ 1.32 billion.

 

Discuss...

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4 hours ago, Mac the Knife said:

Here's one to ponder if it hasn't already been bounced around on these 27+ pages thus far...

 

On July 29, 1986, in Room 318 of the United States District Courthouse in New York City, Patricia McCabe, foreman of the jury in USFL v. NFL, reads a verdict in which the NFL is not only guilty of one count of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, but that instead of awarding $1 in punitive damages to the USFL, the jury awards the league the full $440 million it had been seeking - trebeled under federal law to $ 1.32 billion.

 

Discuss...

Trump would have been a team owner in the NFL (maybe both leagues merge so the NFL doesn't have to pay damages) 

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18 hours ago, goalieboy82 said:

Trump would have been a team owner in the NFL (maybe both leagues merge so the NFL doesn't have to pay damages) 

 

I also wonder if that would have led to a merger. At the time, there were only eight teams left (Arizona Outlaws, Baltimore Stars, Birmingham Stallions, Jacksonville Bulls, Memphis Showboats, New Jersey Generals, Orlando Renegades, Tampa Bay Bandits). They probably only would have taken two of those teams (Baltimore Stars and either the Arizona Outlaws or the Jacksonville Bulls).

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5 hours ago, DnBronc said:

 

I also wonder if that would have led to a merger. At the time, there were only eight teams left (Arizona Outlaws, Baltimore Stars, Birmingham Stallions, Jacksonville Bulls, Memphis Showboats, New Jersey Generals, Orlando Renegades, Tampa Bay Bandits). They probably only would have taken two of those teams (Baltimore Stars and either the Arizona Outlaws or the Jacksonville Bulls).

maybe the NFL merges a few of the teams together (and take 4 teams total).  

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18 hours ago, DnBronc said:

 

I also wonder if that would have led to a merger. At the time, there were only eight teams left (Arizona Outlaws, Baltimore Stars, Birmingham Stallions, Jacksonville Bulls, Memphis Showboats, New Jersey Generals, Orlando Renegades, Tampa Bay Bandits). They probably only would have taken two of those teams (Baltimore Stars and either the Arizona Outlaws or the Jacksonville Bulls).

 

The USFL would've pushed to get the more successful franchises into the NFL. So the Baltimore, Houston (merged with New Jersey), Oakland, Memphis and Arizona.

 

The Houston-NJ franchise would've probably had to move; the USFL Oakland franchise would've meant that Al Davis doesn't move the team from LA in '95 (and they probably find a way to make it work in LA and are there to this day).

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4 hours ago, Dalcowboyfan92 said:

 

The USFL would've pushed to get the more successful franchises into the NFL. So the Baltimore, Houston (merged with New Jersey), Oakland, Memphis and Arizona.

 

The Houston-NJ franchise would've probably had to move; the USFL Oakland franchise would've meant that Al Davis doesn't move the team from LA in '95 (and they probably find a way to make it work in LA and are there to this day).

 

Oakland didn't have a team in the USFL anymore at the time of the merger. And, I'm not so sure that the NFL would allow four teams to join. Baltimore and Arizona seem the likeliest.

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18 hours ago, DnBronc said:

 

Oakland didn't have a team in the USFL anymore at the time of the merger. And, I'm not so sure that the NFL would allow four teams to join. Baltimore and Arizona seem the likeliest.

 

Ah, I see. I did not know that Oakland did not exist as a franchise at that point in time. Baltimore would've gotten in; without a shadow of a doubt.

 

(And to go on a tangent; that means there would be no Baltimore Stallions franchise in the failed CFL USA venture in the mid 1990s.)

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Guys, I think you're all over-estimating the NFL's position in the situation I posited.  They'd have been on the hook to the tune of $1.32 billion.  While today that's pocket change for the NFL and might get you a 40% interest in the Cincinnati Bengals, at the time that figure would've represented more than half the total value of the entire league at the prices franchises were selling for at the time.

 

Just adding some grist for the discussion mill, but I think you're "I think they'd allow 2 teams, maybe 4" mindset?  Is selling the situation a little short - had it been a $1.32 billion judgment, the USFL would've had the NFL by the short and curlies.  Imagine someone today hitting them with a $100 billion judgment by comparison and you'd have roughly the same situation.  With that context provided?  Please... continue.

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Re: USFL and the anti-trust suit...

 

I swear that a year or so ago we discussed this in a thread, but try as I  might despite my searches I cannot seem to find it.  Are threads or posts ever taken off?

I had some back-of-envelope calculations about relative NFL franchise value back then, infringement costs for New York and Chicago franchises, and good discussion with other posters about Einhorn (Chicago)  or Trump being "allowed in".  Then we talked about how it affected future expansion, etc.

 

Mac, I think my scenario was that what was awarded was not the FULL amount they were seeking, but a VERY considerable amount.

 

Since I can't find it, here is the gist as I remember it:

 

USFL wins suit and monetary damages; instead of payment, NFL works out deal with USFL to admit/merge some teams based upon "going" franchise value (Saints had just sold for $60 million in 1985).  In doing so, they follow the recommendations of a Stanford Research Institute study done before their 70s expansion, that said with population base and suburban growth, they'd do better to give a 3rd franchise to New York and a 2nd to Chicago and L.A. (1):

  • Arizona Outlaws admitted as NFL franchise
  • Baltimore Stars admitted as NFL franchise
  • Memphis Showboats admitted as NFL franchise
  • Jacksonville Bulls admitted as NFL franchise
  • New Jersey Generals admitted as franchise after NFL swallows hard on Trump, but makes him pay infringement penalties to the Jets and Giants.
  • Chicago ____ (they were planning on changing their changing name from the Blitz) admitted as franchise with Einhorn as owner, but he has to pay infringement fee to Bears.
  • Birmingham Stallions, Orlando Renegades, and Tampa Bay Bandits each paid by NFL to dissolve. Tampa Bay clearly couldn't support 2 teams, B'Ham would be too small a market for the NFL, and league would be spread too thin in Florida with franchises in Miami, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville AND Orlando.

Each of the six teams are placed in an existing NFL division: Baltimore Stars in the AFC East, Chicago in the AFC central, Memphis in the AFC West, Arizona in the NFC West, Jacksonville in the NFC Central, and New Jersey in the NFC East.

 

Long term effects are Arizona, Jacksonville, Baltimore (and conceivably with Memphis, TN in NFL, also Nashville) prevented as relocation sites.  With less spots for relocation, maybe less stadium replacement in the '90s and more stability.  If Cardinals do move, maybe it's to... Charlotte, which then opens up St.Louis for the Rams, and leaving LA to the Raiders, who then move back to Oakland as they did in this world, leaving LA without a team for many years.

 

And, in the last couple of years, LA moves back to LA but the RAIDERS return as well as the new stadium's 2nd team and the Chargers stays put in San Diego.

 

(1) The League: The Rise and Decline of the NFL, p. 150-152

 

 

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12 hours ago, Dalcowboyfan92 said:

Ah, I see. I did not know that Oakland did not exist as a franchise at that point in time. Baltimore would've gotten in; without a shadow of a doubt.

 

(And to go on a tangent; that means there would be no Baltimore Stallions franchise in the failed CFL USA venture in the mid 1990s.)

 

That's OK. However, after doing a search, it seems that the Oakland team only suspended operations for 1986 (before the settlement):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Invaders

 

If the USFL would have been awarded the damages that Mac The Knife referred to a few posts ago (1.32 billion), maybe the Invaders come back (either they merge with another team, or they are included in a NFL-USFL merger).

 

 

 

 

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While we're on the topic of relocation, which other cities were in the running for the original Winnipeg Jets before settling on Phoenix?

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13 minutes ago, neo_prankster said:

While we're on the topic of relocation, which other cities were in the running for the original Winnipeg Jets before settling on Phoenix?

 

Minnesota:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/minnesota-expansion.776293/

 

https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4304448.html

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Now suppose the WPG Jets moved to Minnesota....

 

Minnesota Fighting Saints? (After the WHA team)

Minnesota Northern Lights?

Minnesota Voyageurs?

Minnesota Moose?

Minnesota Polar Bears?

Minnesota Loons?

Minnesota Lumberjacks?

Minnesota Princes?

 

Whatever they would've called themselves, I'm sure the Target Center had a big enough floor space for a 200x85 ft rink, right?

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5 minutes ago, neo_prankster said:

Now suppose the WPG Jets moved to Minnesota....

 

Minnesota Fighting Saints? (After the WHA team)

Minnesota Northern Lights?

Minnesota Voyageurs?

Minnesota Moose?

Minnesota Polar Bears?

Minnesota Loons?

Minnesota Lumberjacks?

Minnesota Princes?

 

Whatever they would've called themselves, I'm sure the Target Center had a big enough floor space for a 200x85 ft rink, right?

 

I think it had an adequate enough rink, because the Jets were trying to move there according to one of the links.

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Moose is definitely out given the circumstances driving the NHL's insistence on setting up shop in Minnesota.

 

That said, not sure if the Target Center was the planned location-the IHL team played at the old St. Paul Civic Center, former home of the Fighting/Folding Saints I and II and future site of the Wild's home ice.

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On ‎28‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:01 PM, neo_prankster said:

Now suppose the WPG Jets moved to Minnesota....

 

Minnesota Fighting Saints? (After the WHA team)

Minnesota Northern Lights?

Minnesota Voyageurs?

Minnesota Moose?

Minnesota Polar Bears?

Minnesota Loons?

Minnesota Lumberjacks?

Minnesota Princes?

 

Whatever they would've called themselves, I'm sure the Target Center had a big enough floor space for a 200x85 ft rink, right?

 

Would they have had a claim for their old moniker ala Hornets?

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13 hours ago, tigers said:

 

Would they have had a claim for their old moniker ala Hornets?

 

They could if Norm Greed had took the time to come up with a new name when he moved the North Stars to Dallas.

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8 hours ago, neo_prankster said:

 

They could if Norm Greed had took the time to come up with a new name when he moved the North Stars to Dallas.

 

But aren't they just Stars now?

 

How about Polaris?

or North Crux?

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