Do you consider the MLS a major sports league in North America?

[IceCap]

All Orlando has when it comes to pro hockey are the Solar Bears. Does that make the ECHL a major league? The CFL is HUGE in western Canada. Does the fact that the Roughriders are a big deal in Regina put the CFL on the NFL's level?

I mean "major league" is kind of a fluid term. We're used to the idea of the "big four," and if that's your criteria? MLS isn't a major league because even the NHL is far and away ahead of them. If we decide that the idea that there are only four major leagues in North America is outdated? Then MLS can qualify, but there's still a discussion to be had. It's not a matter of MLS not being the top level of competition in the world. To really be a lock for "major league" status it needs to, at the very least, be competitive in acquiring talent. MLS' current single entity structure, lack of any real free agency, and low pay scale means it'll never be able to attract top talent in large enough numbers to compete with the major leagues in Europe. When MLS reforms itself and adopts the franchise model? It'll be a lot closer to a "major league." Again, it's not about having the best players in the world. It's being able to compete with other leagues to secure the best players in the world. Which it really cannot do in its current form.

MLS has the pieces needed to be considered a major league, it's just not there yet. If/when they drop the single entity structure? It'll be more clear cut.

[rams80]

That's a good point - ask Orlando if they think it's a major league. Heck, Portland chose MLS over minor league baseball (and a shot at the bigs).

The fact that Portland lost AAA baseball once before indicates baseball may not have been the big priority for the city some thought.

[Gothamite]

All Orlando has when it comes to pro hockey are the Solar Bears. Does that make the ECHL a major league?

Did the Solar Bears ever sell 60,000 tickets to anything?

Not that anybody expects them to maintain that level for any period of time, but its still ing inpressive.

[IceCap]

All Orlando has when it comes to pro hockey are the Solar Bears. Does that make the ECHL a major league?

Did the Solar Bears ever sell 60,000 tickets to anything?

No, but the "local relevance makes it a major league!" argument is still lacking. Does the CFL qualify as a major league because it draws well in Western Canada where it's the only game in town when it comes to pro football? We had people in this very thread saying the CFL sat at the "kiddie table" yet some of the pro MLS arguments being used to justify that league's "major league" status means the CFL must also be considered.

I mean let's look at two common markets. Let's start with Montreal. The CFL's Alouettes drew 20,278 on average in 2014. MLS' Impact? 17,421. What about Vancouver? The CFL's Lions drew 24,786 fan on average per game in 2014. MLS' Whitecaps drew 20,408. If we're holding local relevance up to determine if a league is a "major league" then the CFL just overtook MLS in two common markets and is thus up for consideration.

My argument? Neither is, for a variety of reasons. Having hotspots where the league in question is insanely successful doesn't mean the league in general is suddenly right up there with the "big four." Which MLS certainly is not. If we're going to toss the "big four" qualification out the window in deciding what qualifies as "major league" then ok, but I still see people invoking it. And like it or not Goth, MLS just isn't at that level. Not even when it comes to the NHL, and that league's run buy morons who seem to be trying to fail.

Not that anybody expects them to maintain that level for any period of time, but its still ing inpressive.

It is. I'm not disputing that. My argument has three main components.

The first point? That local relevance is a flawed argument. If accepted then we need to accept that the CFL is part of the "major league" discussion right along with MLS.

Secondly? That, on the whole, MLS is far behind the least successful of the "big four," and that's going to hurt its overall perception.

Finally? MLS' single entity model, lack of real free agency, and low pay scale means it'll never be able to truly compete with the premier leagues of Europe. If it cannot compete for top tier talent then it'll never be accepted as a major league in North America. Note that I said compete for top tier talent. MLS doesn't have to become the highest level of competition in the world. It just needs to be seen as a valid alternative to the European premier leagues, and not a half-step down. Which is where they currently are.

[Gothamite]

My argument? Neither is, for a variety of reasons. Having hotspots where the league in question is insanely successful doesn't mean the league in general is suddenly right up there with the "big four." Which MLS certainly is not. If we're going to toss the "big four" qualification out the window in deciding what qualifies as "major league" then ok, but I still see people invoking it. And like it or not Goth, MLS just isn't at that level. Not even when it comes to the NHL, and that league's run buy morons who seem to be trying to fail.

Wait, I don't think I ever said MLS was "big four". It's not. I think I compared it to AAA baseball, if anything.

I do expect them to take a run at the NHL in a decade or so (and they might even win, because "run by morons"). but it's certainly not there yet.

[IceCap]

The problem is that the NHL, despite it's lacklustre leadership, has been growing since the the end of the 2004-2005 lockout. MLS might make huge strides in ten years, but the NHL's on track to do the same. And they had the better starting position.

Factor in the NHL's insane popularity in Canada (the Canadian tv rights went for $5 billion)? I don't see how MLS can dislodge the NHL in the North American hierarchy.

[Gothamite]

That depends. Are you counting Mexico in "North America"?

[2001mark]

That depends. Are you counting Mexico in "North America"?

How many Mexicans pay any attention to MLS whatsoever?

I'd bet my left arm that most Canadians & Americans haven't a clue about Liga MX.

[IceCap]

From a cultural standpoint? Nah

[raysox]

I remember an Awful Announcing(maybe SB nation) article about 5 ways to improve the league and one was to fix the times of games so you know exactly when games are(like NFL or EPL). Then pick a prime time slot and make it out I be the greatest thing. Think Monday Night Football, but Friday Night Footy.

Until the league fixes the schedule, and TV times I think it'll be 5th. But the upside is so huge because the league is gaining respect globally. The UK and Germany are airing games this year.

[patsox]

I remember an Awful Announcing(maybe SB nation) article about 5 ways to improve the league and one was to fix the times of games so you know exactly when games are(like NFL or EPL). Then pick a prime time slot and make it out I be the greatest thing. Think Monday Night Football, but Friday Night Footy.

Until the league fixes the schedule, and TV times I think it'll be 5th. But the upside is so huge because the league is gaining respect globally. The UK and Germany are airing games this year.

Yeah, something like a weekly double header with a game on ESPN 2 at 5 and FS1 at 7. They could call it Soccer Sunday. Hell, they could even throw the Spanish speaking fans a bone and give Unimas a weekly Friday game; call it Futbol Friday, or Viernes de Futbol or something.

[Norva]

Well they have 5 PM games on ESPN2 now every Sunday at 5pm followed by a FS1 game or two. And I believe all the Friday Unimas games are at 7. They seem to have a decent regular lineup this season for national games.

[raysox]

I thought they were at different times this week than last week? If not then congrats MLS, you're in the big 4.

[patsox]

I thought they were at different times this week than last week? If not then congrats MLS, you're in the big 4.

That was only for the opening week. They added an extra late game on FS1 (Sounders-Revs). The Unimas games do seem to start at different times (I think mostly due to differing time zones), but they're always on Friday nights at some time between 7 and 10.

[Robertsports]

Absolutely. I think that it is already a major sports league and it sets a new standard for other sports leagues and for other soccer league. In its first two decades as a league, it has been for successful than the other sports league were in their first years. So far, there have only been two unsuccessful markets, Miami and Tampa Bay. Coincidentally, those are also the two markets that are having trouble keeping a Major League Baseball team. THe league also didn't make the same mistake that the North American Soccer League made in the 1980s. It started small and grew. I believe that same for Major League Lacrosse as a sixth Major Sport.

[rams80]

Absolutely. I think that it is already a major sports league and it sets a new standard for other sports leagues and for other soccer league. In its first two decades as a league, it has been for successful than the other sports league were in their first years. So far, there have only been two unsuccessful markets, Miami and Tampa Bay. Coincidentally, those are also the two markets that are having trouble keeping a Major League Baseball team. THe league also didn't make the same mistake that the North American Soccer League made in the 1980s. It started small and grew. I believe that same for Major League Lacrosse as a sixth Major Sport. As far a attendance, it have even outplayed Major League Baseball.

Are you human?

[bosrs1]

Absolutely. I think that it is already a major sports league and it sets a new standard for other sports leagues and for other soccer league. In its first two decades as a league, it has been for successful than the other sports league were in their first years. So far, there have only been two unsuccessful markets, Miami and Tampa Bay. Coincidentally, those are also the two markets that are having trouble keeping a Major League Baseball team. THe league also didn't make the same mistake that the North American Soccer League made in the 1980s. It started small and grew. I believe that same for Major League Lacrosse as a sixth Major Sport. As far a attendance, it have even outplayed Major League Baseball.

Nope... please play again.

Also as for failed markets you forgot Los Angeles.

[Robertsports]

Absolutely. I think that it is already a major sports league and it sets a new standard for other sports leagues and for other soccer league. In its first two decades as a league, it has been for successful than the other sports league were in their first years. So far, there have only been two unsuccessful markets, Miami and Tampa Bay. Coincidentally, those are also the two markets that are having trouble keeping a Major League Baseball team. THe league also didn't make the same mistake that the North American Soccer League made in the 1980s. It started small and grew. I believe that same for Major League Lacrosse as a sixth Major Sport. As far a attendance, it have even outplayed Major League Baseball.

Nope... please play again.

Also as for failed markets you forgot Los Angeles.

You are right and Los Angeles is getting a new team in 2017.

[waltere]

I don't really think it's fair to describe L.A. as a 'failed market' in MLS terms, the Galaxy seem to have a solid thing going. Admittedly the whole Chivas USA experiment failed but that was such a goddamn dumpster fire of a cluster:censored: that its unfair to put the blame on anyone from outside the organisation itself

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I didn't realize Chivas USA was in LA until about two years into my Sounders fandom.

The whole idea of Chivas USA was incredibly weird to me. I get what they were going for now, but they launched with essentially zero success of reaching casual soccer fans.