FAKING IT: TSN documentary on counterfeiting

[BBallSuperFan]

I feel that a conterfiet is never a good thing to own, but I get why people buy them.

I have a old jays jersey i wear to games from my dad. It's big on me still, but I wear it proud.

I don't wear Leafs gear to games. Instead, I wear Blue. Easy way to honour your team.... just wear there colours.

are you just too cheap to buy your own stuff, so you use your dad or just wear a $5 t-shirt? What if the Leafs are playing the Rangers, Islanders, Blue Jackets, Canucks, Sabres, Oilers, Blues, Lightning, or Jets? All of those teams main color is blue. Wouldn't that confuse people abour your loyalty?

Fist off, My dad is DEAD. The jersey is authentic and signed. I keep it safe when I don't wear it. I own my own sports gear, mainly caps. I do own a bunch of NHL jersey from when I was younger though. None of them fit me, so I keep them on a wall in my bedroom.

As for teams who have similar colours, wear secondary colours as well. Example would be wearing Green to Cannuck games as well as Blue.

Food for thought people.

[coggs]

I feel that a conterfiet is never a good thing to own, but I get why people buy them.

I have a old jays jersey i wear to games from my dad. It's big on me still, but I wear it proud.

I don't wear Leafs gear to games. Instead, I wear Blue. Easy way to honour your team.... just wear there colours.

are you just too cheap to buy your own stuff, so you use your dad or just wear a $5 t-shirt? What if the Leafs are playing the Rangers, Islanders, Blue Jackets, Canucks, Sabres, Oilers, Blues, Lightning, or Jets? All of those teams main color is blue. Wouldn't that confuse people abour your loyalty?

Fist off, My dad is DEAD. The jersey is authentic and signed. I keep it safe when I don't wear it. I own my own sports gear, mainly caps. I do own a bunch of NHL jersey from when I was younger though. None of them fit me, so I keep them on a wall in my bedroom.

As for teams who have similar colours, wear secondary colours as well. Example would be wearing Green to Cannuck games as well as Blue.

Food for thought people.

Sorry to hear that. I get what you are saying, I am just busting horns.

[coggs]

I understand most people on this site hate knock-off jerseys. Considering this is a site to discuss jerseys and logos, etc., I can understand. However, when people have the attitude of, "I hate knock-off jerseys, so nobody should wear them..", then come out by saying they are against intellectual property theft and then accuse people of supporting organized crime I have to laugh. This piece by CTV was a joke. CTV is owned by Bell and Bell/Rogers owns the Leafs. They are acting like this is some kind of PSA designed to help people. Instead it is, "Hey, don't buy that $40 knock-off, buy our $300 real thing and put more money in OUR pockets."

Reminds me of a great billboard ad I used to see as I was crossing the Brooklyn Bridge into Manhattan, "If you don't like Gay Marriage, then don't get Gay Married!"

[oldschoolvikings]

Sorry to hear that. I get what you are saying, I am just busting horns.

Umm...

What?

[oldschoolvikings]

[youcan'tseeme]

Why is it that so many people are fine spending $40 on a knock-off because it's cheaper, (and allegedly looks perfect) yet not one of those people would buy a knock-off say iPhone for $100 when an authentic one will cost you $700? They'd likely call someone out on having a fake phone yet, the jersey is fine. Most phones are designed to break after 2 years and become obsolete within a year. I just don't get why clothing seems to be fine to bootleg, yet other things that are priced far worse are okay to spend money on?

First off, I had no idea you could get knock-off cell phones. Secondly, most people are not paying full retail for a phone. I got my first phone in 1997, and have never paid more than $100 for a phone. Wait for your upgrade, and you get a ridiculous discount. I also did not buy a smart phone until November 2013. Upgrade was due, and Best Buy had a promotion for a free Galaxy s4 if you extend your service contract 2 years. Third, most people are constantly using their cell phones, while they are only wearing their knock-off jersey a few times a year when they go to a game. People do not want to spend $200-300 for something that is going to be hanging in a closet most of the time, when they can get something for $40. They are not worried that the fonts aren't perfect or the colors are exact. They just want something to show they are a Rangers fan or a Giants fan or a Red Sox fan or whatever.

You pay full retail for your phone it's factored into your plan. No different then buying a jersey on your credit card and putting $15 bucks a weeks towards it. Secondly buying a counterfeit is in no way supporting your team, it's supporting bootleggers. If the money doesn't go to the team then what support is being given?

I 100% agree NHL prices are way to high, but that doesn't excuse it. If your favourite band charges $200 bucks for a front row ticket, then paying $40 dollars for front row at some bar doesn't equate to supporting them.

I get to that some just don't care as well but I just don't get why as I know 95% of them wouldn't buy none clothing counterfeits.

[IceCap]

I have two pieces of advice for you Coggs. I'm speaking as a mod. First off, we have a post edit feature. If you're replying to multiple people simply edit your posts to include your multiple replies. That's much better then clogging a topic with post after post. Secondly, we encourage healthy, mature debate here. Disagreements are fine, and being passionate about your position is fine. "Busting horns" though? No. Don't go out of your way to be combative.

Now as for the debate at hand...*takes off mod hat*

Again though, it's not an essential product. This isn't medicine or food that people are being priced out of. It's a piece of apparel supporting a sports team. Like it or not there is a moral factor at play here. So if you don't want to pay the price for this luxury item then the moral thing is to just not get a jersey. Seeing as it's not essential? Your life won't change for the worse.

On top of that? I find it laughable that people justify counterfeit jerseys with the attitude of "screw these corporate fatcats!" At the end of the day you're still spending money to show your allegiance to a pro sports team. A corporation run by the same 1% you feel like you're sticking it to.

What I find laughable is that you are so concerned about the morality of buying a knock-off. People will buy it to show they are a fan or maybe because they like how it looks. Unless you work for or own the team, why do you care how someone else spends their money?

I'm not a fan of intellectual property theft.

Oh, I see. Are you a fan of other types of theft?

No, I'm not a fan of other types of theft. I specified intellectual property theft because it's what's relevant to this discussion.

Or, is this just your way of being all self-righteous. Just admit, YOU do not like the knock-offs (Frankly, I don't either), so you whine about others wearing them?

Look. I don't have to "admit" to anything. You're in no position to declare what my true motivations and beliefs are. Fact is people buy crap I don't like all the time, and I don't "whine" about it. The distinction here is that it's illegal.

NFL is a $10Billion industry. The counterfeit jersey market is not going to hurt their business.

Sorry, but I can't feel bad for the NFL or NHL losing some jersey sales.

Look, here's how this "property" thing works. If a sports team builds a brand that you as a consumer wish to spend money on then they deserve that money because they both own the brand and worked to make it something you wish to support. If the prices are too high then you're free to not spend your money. By buying a counterfeit you're denying money that the organizations who own and built the brand you want to spend money on. It doesn't matter if the owners of that brand are a mom and pop business or a billion dollar a year industry. If they own the brand you like? They deserve your money.

[guest23]

I have two pieces of advice for you Coggs. I'm speaking as a mod. First off, we have a post edit feature. If you're replying to multiple people simply edit your posts to include your multiple replies. That's much better then clogging a topic with post after post. Secondly, we encourage healthy, mature debate here. Disagreements are fine, and being passionate about your position is fine. "Busting horns" though? No. Don't go out of your way to be combative.

Now as for the debate at hand...*takes off mod hat*

Again though, it's not an essential product. This isn't medicine or food that people are being priced out of. It's a piece of apparel supporting a sports team. Like it or not there is a moral factor at play here. So if you don't want to pay the price for this luxury item then the moral thing is to just not get a jersey. Seeing as it's not essential? Your life won't change for the worse.

On top of that? I find it laughable that people justify counterfeit jerseys with the attitude of "screw these corporate fatcats!" At the end of the day you're still spending money to show your allegiance to a pro sports team. A corporation run by the same 1% you feel like you're sticking it to.

What I find laughable is that you are so concerned about the morality of buying a knock-off. People will buy it to show they are a fan or maybe because they like how it looks. Unless you work for or own the team, why do you care how someone else spends their money?

I'm not a fan of intellectual property theft.

Oh, I see. Are you a fan of other types of theft?

No, I'm not a fan of other types of theft. I specified intellectual property theft because it's what's relevant to this discussion.

Or, is this just your way of being all self-righteous. Just admit, YOU do not like the knock-offs (Frankly, I don't either), so you whine about others wearing them?

Look. I don't have to "admit" to anything. You're in no position to declare what my true motivations and beliefs are. Fact is people buy crap I don't like all the time, and I don't "whine" about it. The distinction here is that it's illegal.

NFL is a $10Billion industry. The counterfeit jersey market is not going to hurt their business.

Sorry, but I can't feel bad for the NFL or NHL losing some jersey sales.

Look, here's how this "property" thing works. If a sports team builds a brand that you as a consumer wish to spend money on then they deserve that money because they both own the brand and worked to make it something you wish to support. If the prices are too high then you're free to not spend your money. By buying a counterfeit you're denying money that the organizations who own and built the brand you want to spend money on. It doesn't matter if the owners of that brand are a mom and pop business or a billion dollar a year industry. If they own the brand you like? They deserve your money.

It's unfortunate the world doesn't operate that way as some of the laws on the books simply are either too difficult to enforce or society rejects compliance. As a business owner you have to budget for theft & loss as there will always somebody looking to steal your product or IP. It's simply a fact of capitalism and to think otherwise is naive.

My question that nobody seems to have an answer for is how to minimize piracy/bootlegging. Obviously the morality/shaming the consumer will never work. Maybe we are currently in a normal market where the IP owners, bootleggers, and law enforcement are all comfortable with the current situation (i.e. gouge legitimate consumers via expanding margins and minimal law enforcement to deter)?

[IceCap]

Sorry to not responding to this earlier...

I've never bought a fake nor will I because I believe in purchasing quality product which also means I'd only buy authentic (yes they're not true on field) and completely bypass replicas. Unfortunately there's hundreds of thousands of consumers that are either ignorant or indifferent and opt for the cheap bootleg. Why do you think so many consumers disregard the moral aspect to buying fake? Do you have any ideas that would change the current message that you disapprove of? Just curious here for the sake of discussion.

To the first question. It's a sense of entitlement. Simple as that. So many people now assume that if they want something they deserve something. If that thing is more money then they can or are willing to pay they will seek it out through illegal means. Now if this were medicine or food or something else essential that would be one thing, where the legal side runs into a moral grey zone. It's not though. It's a piece of apparel for a sports team. That makes the morality of it all the clearer to me. This product isn't essential to your survival, or even general state of happiness. So there's no reason to go outside the law on it. Yet so many do because of that sense of entitlement.

As for my ideas? Yeah, it's easy. Teams and leagues need to lower their prices. I still remember buying a Leafs replica for $60 and change at my rink's pro shop back before the EDGE system was a thing. In many ways it's like illegally downloading music. Piracy went down once artists and record labels embraced legal digital distribution that made the music easy to get and affordable. Or like how Netflix has severely damaged the movie piracy business.

Honestly? I think most people are willing to pay for a legally obtained product if prices are reasonable. In that regard? Yes, the teams and leagues are to blame by steadily raising the prices of the products. I can't put all, or even most, of the blame on them though because legally they're allowed to charge whatever they want for their product because it's a luxury item. Sure, the prices are high and turning a lot of people away. The solution, on the consumer's end, is to just not buy a jersey. If enough people do that the leagues and teams will have to adjust their prices. Going into the realm of supporting intellectual property theft? Not what I would call the ideal solution, or even an acceptable one.

[Sport]

Over the holiday break I purchased a Blue Jackets authentic home jersey from the team store. It was $285, three hundo with tax.

If I want to support my team (which is not essential to my being) I have five options: I can buy a Replica jersey, Authentic jersey, counterfeit jersey, some other type of apparel, or not buying anything at all.

I can eliminate replica and counterfeit right away. I don't want a replica because the sh***y plastic shoulder patches are unacceptable as a discerning jersey loving hockey fan, the materials don't come close to feeling legit, the hem slits are weird, and the jock tag requires me to do surgery with a threadripper. Counterfeit jerseys don't come close to matching the quality of the real deal. NOT EVEN CLOSE. I can spot one from a mile away and people in them (usually Penguins and Blackhawks fans) always look like idiots. Plus, I refuse to support IP theft and that shady industry. Did I mention the counterfeits always look like s***?

So that leaves me with three choices: buy the authentic, buy another type of apparel, don't buy anything at all. It sucks the league and their jersey supplier puts me in a position where I must pay $300 if I want a jersey of acceptable quality, but that’s the reality, which is why for 7 years I chose not buy an NHL jersey (my exGF gave me a replica CBJ third jersey, which I’m fine with wearing because it doesn’t have shoulder patches). I couldn’t justify the expense and chose to buy other apparel like jackets and shirseys. Now that I have a job that pays better than any job I’ve ever had before I was able to make that decision and purchase an authentic jersey.

And you know what? I’ll likely have this thing longer than any counterfeit or replica would last. It’s made with heavy materials, sewn on logos, and I refuse to put a number on it. It will be the only CBJ jersey I’ll ever need (provided they don’t change their uniforms). When you look at it that way $300 for one jersey over the lifetime of that uniform isn’t so bad of a financial commitment.

I guess I said all that to say that buying a counterfeit jersey should not be a viable option.

Hockey knock-offs for the most part are terrible. However, most people do not care. They would rather pay $50 and keep the $250 in their pocket. They save money and still show that they are a fan of that team.

They show they're a fan of the team by stealing from that team, which is odd. They don't care for a few reasons: Either they're cheap, quality is not important to them, the details are not important to them or they can't tell the difference. Or a combination of all of that. Either way the person in the counterfeit jersey has never looked good.

[BigBubba]

The "don't like it, don't do it" argument has to be one of the most illogical, fallacious, and flat-out dumb group of words ever strung together in the English language. Don't like theft? Don't steal! Don't like vandalism? Don't vandalize! Don't like selling alcohol to minors? Don't sell alcohol to minors!

[oldschoolvikings]

The whole argument about how it's OK to rip off the NFL or NHL because they're just big evil mega-corporations is the same one people use to justify downloading pirated music or movies... basically saying actors, directors, producers, and rock stars are all billionaires anyway, so who cares? And even if that were the only people IP theft was hurting, I'd still think it was a weak argument. But that isn't the only one getting hurt. Next time you go to a movie, stick around for the end credits and try to count the names as they scroll by... there are literally thousands of people employed in the making of even a modest budget movie, and the vast majority of them are just regular people, trying to make a decent living. Same thing with music, and the same thing with Sports product. Venders, packagers, handlers, shippers, truck drivers, on and on and on. And that's just with the physical product. Stop and think about the designers... the people who actually created the logos, fonts, who's creative sweat and inspiration you are now wearing on your body while completely bypassing the financial chain that keeps them employed.

Yeah, I don't care about the NFL's profits either... but don't try to pretend that's why your doing it.

[Kevin W.]

And besides, it's a classic example of two wrongs not making a right. Are major league jerseys overpriced? Hell yes they are. Does that make buying illegally copied versions of them OK? Absolutely not.

[guest23]

The whole argument about how it's OK to rip off the NFL or NHL because they're just big evil mega-corporations is the same one people use to justify downloading pirated music or movies... basically saying actors, directors, producers, and rock stars are all billionaires anyway, so who cares? And even if that were the only people IP theft was hurting, I'd still think it was a weak argument. But that isn't the only one getting hurt. Next time you go to a movie, stick around for the end credits and try to count the names as they scroll by... there are literally thousands of people employed in the making of even a modest budget movie, and the vast majority of them are just regular people, trying to make a decent living. Same thing with music, and the same thing with Sports product. Venders, packagers, handlers, shippers, truck drivers, on and on and on. And that's just with the physical product. Stop and think about the designers... the people who actually created the logos, fonts, who's creative sweat and inspiration you are now wearing on your body while completely bypassing the financial chain that keeps them employed.

Yeah, I don't care about the NFL's profits either... but don't try to pretend that's why your doing it.

Your argument is a tad simplistic as the staff that actually makes many industries the successes that they are compensated for their efforts up front based on actual production of goods and services. The very few individuals that are compensated on the back end of the transaction bear the risk of piracy & bootlegging as it will ultimately affect their revenues & profits. Also as I stated in an earlier post the cost of piracy/bootlegging is built into the cost of production and business model much like a produce vendor bakes the cost of spoilage into the retail price of an apple.

Now if those executives shared back end profits slightly more equitably with their staff and labor that ultimately does all of the work you'd have a solid argument. In reality the losses do only hurt the wealthy. There is an economic damage case that can be made but any content or goods producer could reprice their product appropriately or secure & control their IP much better to effectively fight piracy and bootlegging. This is a centuries old practice that's not going away based on introducing morality into the argument.

Edit: Yes I'm being a tad redundant.

[oldschoolvikings]

The whole argument about how it's OK to rip off the NFL or NHL because they're just big evil mega-corporations is the same one people use to justify downloading pirated music or movies... basically saying actors, directors, producers, and rock stars are all billionaires anyway, so who cares? And even if that were the only people IP theft was hurting, I'd still think it was a weak argument. But that isn't the only one getting hurt. Next time you go to a movie, stick around for the end credits and try to count the names as they scroll by... there are literally thousands of people employed in the making of even a modest budget movie, and the vast majority of them are just regular people, trying to make a decent living. Same thing with music, and the same thing with Sports product. Venders, packagers, handlers, shippers, truck drivers, on and on and on. And that's just with the physical product. Stop and think about the designers... the people who actually created the logos, fonts, who's creative sweat and inspiration you are now wearing on your body while completely bypassing the financial chain that keeps them employed.

Yeah, I don't care about the NFL's profits either... but don't try to pretend that's why your doing it.

Your argument is a tad simplistic as the staff that actually makes many industries the successes that they are compensated for their efforts up front based on actual production of goods and services. The very few individuals that are compensated on the back end of the transaction bear the risk of piracy & bootlegging as it will ultimately affect their revenues & profits. Also as I stated in an earlier post the cost of piracy/bootlegging is built into the cost of production and business model much like a produce vendor bakes the cost of spoilage into the retail price of an apple.

Now if those executives shared back end profits slightly more equitably with their staff and labor that ultimately does all of the work you'd have a solid argument. In reality the losses do only hurt the wealthy. There is an economic damage case that can be made but any content or goods producer could reprice their product appropriately or secure & control their IP much better to effectively fight piracy and bootlegging. This is a centuries old practice that's not going away based on introducing morality into the argument.

Edit: Yes I'm being a tad redundant.

True, the caterers and drivers and lighting techs on any given movie have long since been paid and moved on by the time the pirated version hits the streets, but economies, even mini-economies, aren't that simple and don't just exist in one at a time vacuums. You'd have to admit that anything that's cutting into the profits in the industry in which you make your living will eventually, if unchecked, find it's way to you, right?

Also, when you say that the cost of piracy/bootlegging is built into the cost of production... well, as you mentioned, where does that money comes from? We know that "cost" is built into the price tag for you and me, or the paychecks of the workers down the line. Every retail store I ever worked for covered for the loss of shoplifting by raising the prices for the paying customers. In other words, because some low-life got it for free, some honest person paid more.

Which sucks.

[sportstar1212]

The pirated movie/music argument doesn't really work in the case of counterfeit jerseys. It's not like you're getting a recording of me playing the song, you're getting the exact same thing. It's not exactly right, but it makes sense why people do it.

Jerseys on the other hand, you're getting a sloppily made version of the actual product. There's really no excuse for buying a knockoff jersey. Yes even replicas are expensive, but if you can't afford a jersey, either save up for one, or buy a team t-shirt, hoodie, hat, etc.

Now that I think about it, unless you attend games regularly, such item would probably be a better investment than a jersey. I find that wearing a jersey around outside of games is a bit goofy, meanwhile you can get way more use out of a t-shirt or hoodie since they're okay to wear around casually.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

The idea of "don't buy it and the NHL will release cheaper jerseys" is exactly what's happened, except a middleman has filled the need for less expensive jerseys instead of the NHL. Counterfeit jerseys, based on volume, are an efficient market -- they match buyers and sellers at a price each are willing to accept. If the NHL is producing PSA's against counterfeiting, they've already lost.

The sad truth is that although the NHL values its jerseys at $300, a big chunk of its market does not. The NHL can either try to better reach that market, or watch it be gobbled up by second-hand vendors. Relying on appeals to morality has never worked in economics.

It's like the old Napster/iTunes situation. Napster was doing very well (was it even a business?) because there wasn't a cheap, economical way to buy mp3 audio. iTunes made it accessible, and mp3 sales became a really big deal. Piracy hasn't gone away, of course, but iTunes is doing good business, as are rivals like Spotify.

The NHL needs to find its iTunes.

[IceCap]

So what I said. Ok. Cool.

As for the counterfeiters filling the need? The problem is the illegality of it. It's disingenuous to suggest that's the same thing as the NHL/the teams recognizing they need to lower their own prices.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

So what I said. Ok. Cool.

As for the counterfeiters filling the need? The problem is the illegality of it. It's disingenuous to suggest that's the same thing as the NHL/the teams recognizing they need to lower their own prices.

So I now see. I read the thread all at once and kind of skimmed. Word economy is not your forte

I think a solution will be prompted by the illegality of it all, the way iTunes filled a need previously filled by Napster. The NHL (and NFL) has to hurt before we're going to see any changes in their pricing.

[IceCap]

It never has been