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NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

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It's not like LA was sitting around for 20 years waiting for some form of entertainment to show up.

 

The Rams (and the Chargers), besides each other, have to compete with the following for fans' disposable income in the market:

 

Dodgers

Angels

Lakers

Clippers

Kings

Ducks

LA Galaxy

LAFC

UCLA football

USC football

Non-football sports for 10 NCAA D-I universities

Sparks

 

And, mind you that housing prices in this city are so astronomically high that a dollar doesn't go as far around here.

 

Of course, this doesn't factor in that it's been so long since there has been a team here that many people hitched their wagons to other teams and that transplants brought their fandom with them when they came out here.

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4 hours ago, DG_Now said:

 

San Antonio would have an NFL team.

 

Most likely.  Luckily the Saints don't have to go through that. 

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10 hours ago, LMU said:

It's not like LA was sitting around for 20 years waiting for some form of entertainment to show up.

 

The Rams (and the Chargers), besides each other, have to compete with the following for fans' disposable income in the market:

 

Dodgers

Angels

Lakers

Clippers

Kings

Ducks

LA Galaxy

LAFC

UCLA football

USC football

Non-football sports for 10 NCAA D-I universities

Sparks

 

And, mind you that housing prices in this city are so astronomically high that a dollar doesn't go as far around here.

 

Of course, this doesn't factor in that it's been so long since there has been a team here that many people hitched their wagons to other teams and that transplants brought their fandom with them when they came out here.

 

That’s a mistake often made when talking about larger markets.  People look at population figures and presume that those teams must always sell out because numbers.

 

That, of course, fails to take into account the staggering competition for entertainment dollars in a major market.  Not only does a dollar not go as far, but those dollars could go so many more places.

 

To your list I’d also add the non-sport options competing for those dollars.  Los Angeles has museums that stand among the best in the world.  The Philharmonic.  A half-dozen amusement parks that are famous world-wide.  And make no mistake, all of that is their real competition.

 

Good thing there’s no theater scene in LA, or the Rams would be really screwed. ;) 

 

Seriously, it’s hard to look at that attendance and walk away with the conclusion “people in LA don’t care about the Rams”.

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Maybe if everything is too expensive and there’s dozens of other options and traffic then it’s just not a great place to have an NFL team. We will see when the stadium opens if people are still apparently choosing the ballet over the Rams. As for market size not mattering, it’s more than 13 million. That’s an awful lot, no matter what other events are going on. Again, we will see when the stadium opens. I’m not saying it’s a bad situation, just not a great one. 

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16 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Maybe if everything is too expensive and there’s dozens of other options and traffic then it’s just not a great place to have an NFL team.

 

You are talking about a team that’s drawing over 70,000 people to each game.

 

Which is right around the capacity of both the Coliseum and their new stadium. 

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2 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

That’s a mistake often made when talking about larger markets.  People look at population figures and presume that those teams must always sell out because numbers.

 

That, of course, fails to take into account the staggering competition for entertainment dollars in a major market.  Not only does a dollar not go as far, but those dollars could go so many more places.

 

To your list I’d also add the non-sport options competing for those dollars.  Los Angeles has museums that stand among the best in the world.  The Philharmonic.  A half-dozen amusement parks that are famous world-wide.  And make no mistake, all of that is their real competition.

 

Good thing there’s no theater scene in LA, or the Rams would be really screwed. ;) 

 

Seriously, it’s hard to look at that attendance and walk away with the conclusion “people in LA don’t care about the Rams”.

Yeah, I didn't want to go that far into the weeds but since you bring it up, we have all these major concert/stage venues in competition:

 

*Walt Disney Concert Hall

*Pantages Theatre

*Microsoft Theater

*Hollywood Bowl

*Dolby Theatre

*Forum

*FivePoint Ampitheatre

*Greek Theatre

*Segerstrom Center for the Arts/Concert Hall

*Dorothy Chandler Pavilion

*Ahmanson Theatre

*Mark Taper Forum

*Orpheum Theatre

*Saban Theatre

*Hollywood Palladium

*Wiltern Theatre

*Numerous clubs, community theaters, college theaters, etc.

 

Then for museums we have, but not limited to:

 

*Hammer Museum of Art

*Gene Autry Museum of the American West

*USS Iowa

*The Broad

*California Science Center

*Getty Center

*Getty Villa

*Grammy Museum

*Griffith Park Observatory

*LA County Museum of Art

*Museum of Contemporary Art

*Missions San Juan Capistrano, San Gabriel, San Fernando, and San Buenaventura (not going as far as Santa Barbara for this purpose)

*Museum of Tolerance

*LA County Natural History Museum

*Page Museum/La Brea Tar Pits

*Petersen Automotive Museum

*Skirball Cultural Museum

*Under construction Academy Museum of Motion Pictures

 

And, of course, amusement parks include:

 

*Disneyland

*Disney's California Adventure

*Knott's Berry Farm

*Knott's Soak City USA

*Six Flags Magic Mountain

*Six Flags Hurricane Harbor

*Universal Studios Hollywood

*Legoland (on the way to San Diego but close enough for this purpose)

*Pacific Park (Santa Monica Pier)

*Raging Waters

*Wild Rivers (closed a few years ago, being relocated)

 

Even with all this competition when the population of the metro area per the Census Bureau is over 13 million, not including visiting fans and people making a longer drive, getting 70,000 fans a game isn't a sign of a mistake.

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Just for fun, I did a search for points of interest in Jacksonville. From a mommy blog:https://temeculablogs.com/jacksonville-florida-points-of-interest/

 

Quote

St. Johns Town Center – I was ready for some shopping when I arrived in Jacksonville and this was a great outdoor shopping center that had all the most popular upscale shops like Tiffany & Co. as well as shops like Old Navy and Justice too! It was one of my favorite Jacksonville Florida points of interest I have to say.

 

That was number 1!

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16 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

I don't know what's going on in GB.  According to ESPN they're at 96%.  I thought they were sold out before the seasons ever started.  

 

The capacity at Lambeau includes a decent number of handicap accessible seats, which come with 1 or 2 accompany-seats (someone who accampanies the handicapped person). These seats are not sold far in advance, and as a result are generally not going to be filled.

 

Oh well.

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9 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Maybe if everything is too expensive and there’s dozens of other options and traffic then it’s just not a great place to have an NFL team.

 

It's not a great place, it's just good enough. It's better than St. Louis, which has less to do and was still a worse destination for football.

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Well looking like San Diego wasn’t the problem. The plan to build San Diego State a new 35,000 seat stadium (expandable to 55,000+), appears headed to victory on election night. This could have been the Chargers had Spanos truly wanted a stadium in San Diego, rather than that half assed self sabotaging mess downtown the Dolts put on the ballot in 2014.

 

SDSU-Stadium-NFL-rendering-2.jpg

 

Hell if they ever decide to correct their mistake in moving to LA, this could still be theirs.

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55k is still small for NFL, but even day 1 at 35k are they going to build it with NFL locker rooms and other stuff that would be needed if the nfl eventually came back?

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2 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

55k is still small for NFL, but even day 1 at 35k are they going to build it with NFL locker rooms and other stuff that would be needed if the nfl eventually came back?

55k is small for the NFL, but the way things are with broadcast rights and home viewing i feel like you might see slightly smaller NFL stadiums in the next era of construction.

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2 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

55k is still small for NFL, but even day 1 at 35k are they going to build it with NFL locker rooms and other stuff that would be needed if the nfl eventually came back?

 

55k is the perfect size for San Diego and about what the Murph was for decades before the ill advised 90’s expansion. As for locker rooms, the nitty gritty hasn’t been ironed out yet, but I don’t imagine they’re going to skimp after SDSU having to endure decades of SDCCU Stadium’s visitor locker room. 

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This doesn't fall under the relocation category, but it's a paraphrasing of a fun story told in the latest episode of my favorite podcast, "Good Seats Still Available..."

 

As is well known by football fans, when Lamar Hunt's efforts to buy either the Chicago Cardinals or an expansion franchise for the Dallas market was rebuffed by the NFL, he gathered together a group of other would-be team owners and formed the American Football League. The NFL, meanwhile, suddenly got interested in Dallas itself, with most owners wanting to put a team in the market to try and bury Hunt.

 

One owner who didn't want a team in Dallas? George Preston Marshall, who as Washington's owner operated the most southern team in the NFL and thus essentially had the entire southern United States as "his" market. A Dallas franchise would threaten his stranglehold as he saw it, and consequently he opposed it.

 

Failing to convince Hunt to abandon his plans and award him a Dallas franchise in the NFL, the league instead picked a friend of Lamar's, Clint Murchison, as a prospective Dallas franchise owner. Back in those days an expansion of the league had to be by unanimous vote however, and as such Marshall said he'd veto any Dallas expansion.

 

So how did Murchison's proposed team, now known as the Dallas Cowboys, come to be? Murchison bought the publishing rights to "Hail To The Redskins," the theme song which had for decades been used by (but not owned by) Marshall and his team. Murchison simply told Marshall, "You can veto my franchise, but when you do? I'll terminate the licensing agreement you had with the previous owner for the song and you won't be able to use it anymore."

 

POOF! The Dallas Cowboys were born

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George Preston Marshall deserves to be in the "Worst Owners" thread...not only he was a racist piece of :censored:, but his team was only forced to integrate (the last NFL team to do so) because they wouldn't have been allowed to play at then-DC Stadium if he didn't conform.

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Oh the long timed business tradition of blackmail. 

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2 hours ago, Wings said:

Oh the long timed business tradition of blackmail. 

 

That’s not really the right word.  

 

It’s not blackmail for a propriety owner to put conditions for use on a lease.

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48 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

That’s not really the right word.  

 

It’s not blackmail for a propriety owner to put conditions for use on a lease.

 

My bad. I'm sorry, I should've been more specific in my post. I was referring to Mac's post about the Washington & Dallas. Also I should've posted it as a time honored business tradition of blackmail. 

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7 hours ago, Wings said:

My bad. I'm sorry, I should've been more specific in my post. I was referring to Mac's post about the Washington & Dallas. Also I should've posted it as a time honored business tradition of blackmail. 

 

See, I wouldn't term that as 'blackmail.'  I'd term that as a combination of (i) being extremely intelligent, coupled with (ii) applying leverage.  "Blackmail" is a more sinister term than I think applies here; Murchison, truth be told, wasn't hell-bent on getting the Cowboys up and running.  The NFL approached him, he wasn't their first choice, and he was a good friend of a guy he'd be competing head-to-head with in the market in Lamar Hunt.  But it became known he had been the one approached, and he wasn't about to let things fall through and cause him embarrassment - particularly at the hands of one man.  So he gained an advantage over that man, and leveraged it, persuading him to vote for approval.  If anything, it gives me a new level of respect for Clint Murchison.

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23 hours ago, Mac the Knife said:

This doesn't fall under the relocation category, but it's a paraphrasing of a fun story told in the latest episode of my favorite podcast, "Good Seats Still Available..."

 

As is well known by football fans, when Lamar Hunt's efforts to buy either the Chicago Cardinals or an expansion franchise for the Dallas market was rebuffed by the NFL, he gathered together a group of other would-be team owners and formed the American Football League. The NFL, meanwhile, suddenly got interested in Dallas itself, (2) with most owners wanting to put a team in the market to try and bury Hunt.

 

One owner who didn't want a team in Dallas? George Preston Marshall, who as Washington's owner operated the most southern team in the NFL and thus essentially had the entire southern United States as "his" market. A Dallas franchise would threaten his stranglehold as he saw it, and consequently he opposed it.

 

(1) Failing to convince Hunt to abandon his plans and award him a Dallas franchise in the NFL, the league instead picked a friend of Lamar's, Clint Murchison, as a prospective Dallas franchise owner. Back in those days an expansion of the league had to be by unanimous vote however, and as such Marshall said he'd veto any Dallas expansion.

 

So how did Murchison's proposed team, now known as the Dallas Cowboys, come to be? Murchison bought the publishing rights to "Hail To The Redskins," the theme song which had for decades been used by (but not owned by) Marshall and his team. Murchison simply told Marshall, "You can veto my franchise, but when you do? I'll terminate the licensing agreement you had with the previous owner for the song and you won't be able to use it anymore."

 

POOF! The Dallas Cowboys were born

 

Correct and true, but a little out of order, chronologically.  

 

The NFL first decided to expand to Dallas, and offered the franchise to Hunt, who, to his credit, didn't leave the other AFL owners in the lurch (as Max WInter did when he took the NFL's offer to switch his Minnesota franchise from the AFL to the NFL).  After that, the NFL decided to go head to head in Dallas and awarded the Dallas franchise to Murchison.

 

The NFL had also announced it was expanding into Dallas to slug it out with Hunt himself. Before doing so, they had offered Lamar the opportunity to defect. Had he, Ralph Wilson noted, the AFL 'would have been stillborn'... When Hunt refused, the NFL awarded the Dallas Cowboys to Clint Murchison and the war was on.

-- The League: The Rise and Decline of the NFL by David Harris, p. 104. 

 

Mac, if you don't have a copy of this, you should get one. I know you would enjoy it.?

 

 

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