Toronto Rogers Centre/BMO Field discussion

[The_Admiral]

Have we kicked this irony-free zone around yet?

Alan Thicke and Andrea Martin -- yeah, the Andrea Martin from SCTV! -- singing "Welcome to SkyDome, the world's largest retractable-ceiling multi-purpose thirty-story-high Dome!" This is a Simpsons bit in real life more than almost anything has been a Simpsons bit in real life. Andrea Martin!

I didn't have the sound on at the beginning so when the names were scrolling by, I thought "Emergency Task Force" was some punk or new wave band from Toronto that only got CanCon airplay hence my never having heard of them before. Nope, turns out it's actually the Toronto police department's emergency task force. Cut to ribbons by Occam's Razor once more, huh.

EDIT: "It will become an opera house for Verdi, Wagner, Mozart, and Strauss" it's possible that this thing created Simpsons writers like Athena being sprung from the head of Zeus.

[Breakwood]

But my point is that the Argos are a money loser. People always bring up TV ratings when it comes to the Argos but if 95% of the people watching Argos games on TV are from the opposing teams market is that really a positive for the Argos?

It's not as though teams receive money based on how many people from each city watch each game. TSN paid big bucks for the league's broadcasting rights, and that money is split evenly among the teams.

I totally understand. However it says something when TFC who gets barely any money from TV rights is on track to make 60 million dollars this year. Meanwhile the Argos with their rich TV contract are barely profitable.

I don't really see why people would show up to see the Argos at BMO Field just because it's a new stadium.

Because they're playing in a new stadium. I know several casual CFL fans who are planning on going to see the Argos once they move to BMO despite having never been to a game before (or having gone to the SkyDome once and hated the experience). Hell, I plan on going to a TFC game this year to check out the place despite having not a lick of interest in soccer. Obviously, the novelty would wear off soon, but don't underestimate the hype that can surround a new stadium.

And when the new stadium smell wears off will they keep coming back? I have doubts.

The SkyDome is a great location yet people still didn't show up. Why all of a sudden will they go to BMO?

Because the atmosphere sucks and it's a truly horrible place to watch football. More importantly, the Blue Jays and their 81 home dates get priority over the Argos, leading to some brutal dates (including everyone's favourite, Tuesday Night Football!). At BMO? While the TFC get scheduling priority, they have only 17 home games, which should vatly improve the Argos' schedule.

The reason the atmosphere sucks is because nobody goes to games, and the percentage of the people at the games that really care about the team is small. What makes TFC games so fun is that a large chunk of the crowd lives and dies with the team. They follow the team to away matches. They make blogs and podcasts during the midweek to keep everyone involved with the team. I'm sure there are people like that with the Argos, but not nearly as many as there are with TFC.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Argos or the CFL. The truth of the matter is that in the GTA Toronto FC is much more popular than the Argos are. I concede that in the rest of the country, nobody cares about TFC, and that's their choice. But as of right now in Toronto TFC is miles ahead of the Argos and the CFL in general.

[IceCap]

I just don't get the whining. I don't see how the Argos moving into BMO Field negatively impacts TFC. Not unless you're a TFC fan who, in fact, just hates the Argos.

What's the downside? Where's the injustice? It just seems like TFC supporters are pissy because they have to share. Despite the fact that their team will get priority when it comes to scheduling.

[Breakwood]

I just don't get the whining. I don't see how the Argos moving into BMO Field negatively impacts TFC. Not unless you're a TFC fan who, in fact, just hates the Argos.

What's the downside? Where's the injustice? It just seems like TFC supporters are pissy because they have to share. Despite the fact that their team will get priority when it comes to scheduling.

1. They're demolishing my seats and moving them further from the field.

2. We have doubts the field will be able to hold up the use of an added 9 football games every year.

3. The Argos almost screwed us out of a stadium in 2006, and 10 years later they act like they have the god-given right to use the stadium they jeopardized.

[IceCap]

I just don't get the whining. I don't see how the Argos moving into BMO Field negatively impacts TFC. Not unless you're a TFC fan who, in fact, just hates the Argos.

What's the downside? Where's the injustice? It just seems like TFC supporters are pissy because they have to share. Despite the fact that their team will get priority when it comes to scheduling.

1. They're demolishing my seats and moving them further from the field.

2. We have doubts the field will be able to hold up the use of an added 9 football games every year.

3. The Argos almost screwed us out of a stadium in 2006, and 10 years later they act like they have the god-given right to use the stadium they jeopardized.

3. Different ownership. Hell, they were owned by a guy who owned a different team in the same league. If they had been under the MLSE umbrella back then BMO would have been built for two from the get-go.

As for their "G-d-given right"? Well I wouldn't say "G-d-given," but I do think it's better that one of the oldest pro football teams in the world has both stable ownership and a nice place to play.

If anyone seems entitled it's TFC fans, who seem like they're above having to share a facility with the "lowly" CFL. Now I like TFC, and MLS. Still? It seems like TFC fans need to remember that their team is not the end-all-be-all of the GTA sporting world.

2. I'm under the impression they're installing a hybrid grass/turf field that should be able to stand up to the increased use. Besides, BMO Field won't be the first field to host both association and gridiron football. It'll be fine.

1. That does suck, but you're not the first fan to have his seat negatively affected by a stadium renovation, and you won't be the last.

[Breakwood]

I just don't get the whining. I don't see how the Argos moving into BMO Field negatively impacts TFC. Not unless you're a TFC fan who, in fact, just hates the Argos.

What's the downside? Where's the injustice? It just seems like TFC supporters are pissy because they have to share. Despite the fact that their team will get priority when it comes to scheduling.

1. They're demolishing my seats and moving them further from the field.

2. We have doubts the field will be able to hold up the use of an added 9 football games every year.

3. The Argos almost screwed us out of a stadium in 2006, and 10 years later they act like they have the god-given right to use the stadium they jeopardized.

3. Different ownership. Hell, they were owned by a guy who owned a different team in the same league. If they had been under the MLSE umbrella back then BMO would have been built for two from the get-go.

As for their "G-d-given right"? Well I wouldn't say "G-d-given," but I do think it's better that one of the oldest pro football teams in the world has both stable ownership and a nice place to play.

If anyone seems entitled it's TFC fans, who seem like they're above having to share a facility with the "lowly" CFL. Now I like TFC, and MLS. Still? It seems like TFC fans need to remember that their team is not the end-all-be-all of the GTA sporting world.

I don't believe TFC is the be all the end all. I understand that the Leafs, Jays and Raptors are all more popular and important than TFC. The Jays openly have said they don't want the Argos at Rogers Centre anymore yet nobody says anything about them. When TFC fans say, they don't want the Argos at their stadium, they get labelled entitled.

2. I'm under the impression they're installing a hybrid grass/turf field that should be able to stand up to the increased use. Besides, BMO Field won't be the first field to host both association and gridiron football. It'll be fine.

The same field that is used at Wembley. This is how it looks after a football game.

1. That does suck, but you're not the first fan to have his seat negatively affected by a stadium renovation, and you won't be the last.

I'm still going to be upset about it.

[IceCap]

No one said anything about about the Jays kicking the Argos out because the shared baseball-football stadium has been universally recognized as a bad idea for decades now.

BMO Field though? Well a football field is a rectangle. A soccer field is a rectangle. The Argos and TFC doubling up makes more sense then the Argos and Jays. Not to mention the fact that BMO Field seems like a better place to watch a CFL game then a cavernous, dim dome.

And it's the TFC fanbase's attitude of "our special team is too good to share a venue" that is getting them the entitled label.

That field looks less then pristine, but far from terrible.

It's your right to be upset. I would be too. I'm just saying its not a travesty being foisted upon the TFC faithful. It's just something that, unfortunately, happens to season ticket holders from time to time.

I want to see the Argos be stable and profitable, despite my Ti-Cats fandom. They're a legacy when it comes to Ontario professional sports. All of this is for the best. I'd understand if TFC was actually being pushed out of their own venue, but that's so not happening.

I like TFC, I really do. The idea that they're too good to share with the Argos though? Not buying it.

[2001mark]

I really have to disagree with the anti CFL sentiment some have espoused here.

I wasn't trying to pour cold water on things, just what sports & biz ppl have been suggesting for the past 10-20yrs as all.

I love the CFL & for the unique reason alone - that it starts its season in the summer & ends in the 'winter' (Canadian November same thing lols). Double headers on a summer night is fun tv.

Alas, I just think the Argos, & maybe it's their recent piss poor ownership, seem to be not much more than wallpaper on the city's sports scene.

I don't check the Argos tv listings, I check the CFL's.

I was hoping they could find a new home in/near Downsview Park, which to itself is also yet to find a flourished breakthrough. I drove by weeks ago & it still looks pretty beat up.

[2001mark]

The reason the atmosphere sucks is because nobody goes to games, and the percentage of the people at the games that really care about the team is small. What makes TFC games so fun is that a large chunk of the crowd lives and dies with the team. They follow the team to away matches. They make blogs and podcasts during the midweek to keep everyone involved with the team. I'm sure there are people like that with the Argos, but not nearly as many as there are with TFC.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Argos or the CFL. The truth of the matter is that in the GTA Toronto FC is much more popular than the Argos are. I concede that in the rest of the country, nobody cares about TFC, and that's their choice. But as of right now in Toronto TFC is miles ahead of the Argos and the CFL in general.

Attending TFC games to me feels like where the Blue Jays were in the 1980's - ppl just want to be there & have a great time, win lose or draw.

Not to say we don't get pissed off at losing, but the actual live experience for TFC is so attractive.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Have we kicked this irony-free zone around yet?

Boy, they really went for it didn't they? Complete with the "Gimme an S!"

I think Simpsons killed off the variety show for good, and it's a shame. I grew up in the 80s, so I missed peak variety show time, but it still seemed like good, clean, hokey fun. After Simpsons skewered the genre -- so many times -- I can't blame networks for not bringing it back. We kind of got it with The X Factor and whatnot, but those were more semi-professional Gong Shows.

Basically, I want more overly earnest ballads, lip synching, and Charles Nelson Reilly homages.

[Cosmic]

I don't think the Simpsons making fun of variety shows had anything to do with them going off the air. Everyone under the sun makes fun of reality shows, and they're still cranking them out like crazy.

Edit: I do love how they put the stars in alphabetical order so nobody would get their feelings hurt. Very Canadian.

[Lee.]

Edit: I do love how they put the stars in alphabetical order so nobody would get their feelings hurt. Very Canadian.

The best is how Glass Tiger comes after David Clayton Thomas and not before Andrea Martin.

[BigBubba]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. Check out the TV ratings graph again. The Argos averaged about 600K viewers a game, compared to about 130K for the TFC. Now, it's true that we don't know how many of those viewers came from Toronto/the GTA, but even if literally every single one of those MLS viewers was a TFC fan, and only 25% of those CFL viewers were Argos fans, the Argos would still be more popular. It's safe to say that the Argos have the larger fanbase of the two.

2. A lot of TFC fans seem to think their team has the divine right to be the sole tenant at BMO, despite the fact that's a city-owned venue.

3. That city-owned venue, by the way, was agreed to by City Council under the assumption that it would accommodate both soccer and football. Now, I can't figure out why it was built the way it was (I believe that MLSE got a little crafty and ensured that it was built with dimensions suitable for football -- American football, that is), but, in any event, no Argos may havemeant no BMO at all.

4. The atmosphere in the SkyDome does not suck just because there are so few people in attendance. Even if you have 25 000 people -- a solid crowd by CFL standards -- the place still sounds dead. Unless you manage to pack 50 000 people in there, you're not going to have an enjoyable fan experience.

5. Tying in with #1 and #4, the Argos were drawing around 30K a night less than ten years ago. This isn't like the Phoenix Coyotes howling for one more chance after 20 years of crappy support. This is a team that has a long history of good crowds that was drawing well less than a decade ago that just needs to find its way again.

6. Breakwood: I know that the endzone seats are gonna be torn-down and re-built, but will they not be retractable so that, when the TFC play, they'll slide back into their current position?

[lopernv]

That pitch pictured is pretty terrible, especially if it will be an every game occurrence, not a one-off. Keep in mind, that camera angle is very forgiving for pitch conditions. I doubt Giovinco, Bradley, Altidore, etc, are too thrilled they have to share the stadium with a football team. Don't think any potential targets TFC may want to sign would be happy about it either.

It's not the fact that the Argos will ruin the stadium atmosphere, or BMO is their home, instead it will effect both the quality of play and the quality of players they can attract.

I realize nothing else could be done but it's a real shame the Argos don't have anywhere else to play. I don't mind so much because the renovations likely wouldn't have happened without the possibility of the Argos moving in, and it seems as though TFC has first, second, and third priority. But the larger question here is: why couldn't the Argos get a FSS built in Toronto? That should say enough about how the city views the team.

Going to respond to another topic raised in this thread as well:

Citing TV ratings as important on whether the city truly cares about the team or not does not work so well for these two teams because the demographic and nature of viewing are wildly different. The young, urban TFC fanbase would rather go down to the stadium to watch the game rather than on television or find alternative sources of viewing (MLSsoccer.com, streaming, etc). As well, soccer lends itself to being a game that doesn't show as well on TV than it does live which could impact the ratings.

[2001mark]

But the larger question here is: why couldn't the Argos get a FSS built in Toronto? That should say enough about how the city views the team.

Going to respond to another topic raised in this thread as well:

Citing TV ratings as important on whether the city truly cares about the team or not does not work so well for these two teams because the demographic and nature of viewing are wildly different. The young, urban TFC fanbase would rather go down to the stadium to watch the game rather than on television or find alternative sources of viewing (MLSsoccer.com, streaming, etc). As well, soccer lends itself to being a game that doesn't show as well on TV than it does live which could impact the ratings.

Couldn't agree more to your Argos stadium to be built- even as they were on the clock with a deadline.

TFC have 178k Twitter followers.

Toronto Argonauts 69.4k Twitter followers.

05/23/15

TFC have 204k likes on FB.

Toronto Argonauts have 37k likes on FB.

05/23/15

[The_Admiral]

The best is how Glass Tiger comes after David Clayton Thomas and not before Andrea Martin.

Tiger, comma, Glass

Also great was "Dave Thomas" and "David Clayton-Thomas." It's so funny because both people are pretty big deals (or were in 1989), but of course Canada would book two guys named Dave...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEGCdVADLWY

[Jer15]

One thing seems to be over-looked in this discussion and is the thing that worries/bugs me more than anything as a soccer fan

Forget the turf, time will tell on that.

Forget the scheduling, TFC is the primary tenant. They will get the dates they want.

Forget even the stands. The south end will be converted into retractable stands that will be in the same spot the currently are for TFC games (Again, we will wait and see on that.).

All these promises have been made and, although MLSE has a history of letting TFC fans down with their promises, all we can do is wait and see.

What bugs me is that this stadium was built to be the home for soccer in Canada, or at least that is what we were told. Adding the Argos (and the recovery time for the grass that will be needed after a CFL game is played) the CSA will be loosing out on dates. That's what bug me the most. Speaking from a TFC standpoint (my fave team in the city followed closely by the Rock and then the Argos) I'm willing to wait and see. As a Canadian soccer fan who wants to see the sport grow, I am upset to see another setback for the sport.

[2001mark]

What bugs me is that this stadium was built to be the home for soccer in Canada

That, is an entirely new can of worms to smash open... let's not, yet.

Wasn't TFC sold as a way to help the CMNT improve? lols

The best stretch idea I heard on that, was if TFC kept scuking, why not just fill the entire roster with Canadians? If they're going to scuk anyways, why not at least put a Canadian 'team' together for chemistry & coaching.

Frankly, I'd like to think CMNT is BMO's #1 primary tennant. Not sure that's reality.

[Jer15]

Sorry man, I'm not following you here.

The roster of TFC has nothing to do with why the stadium was built....I'm not seeing the connection you are trying to make here.

Also...what about the women's team? The u21 sides? This isn't just about the top flight men's side.

[2001mark]

Sorry man, I'm not following you here.

The roster of TFC has nothing to do with why the stadium was built....I'm not seeing the connection you are trying to make here.

Also...what about the women's team? The u21 sides? This isn't just about the top flight men's side.

Wasn't a reason BMO was greenlit with public funding was so that Canadian soccer could be lifted up with the new 'national' stadium?

That just seems so secondary right now as all. Unfortunately, because anything short of being top 50 in the world (men's) is practically a disgrace.