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Anyway, back to uniform aesthetics...

 

With all the blue colored teams in the playoffs this year (and almost every year), we may end up having a blue-on-blue World Series again. I don't really think any of those teams should change their colors, but I really wish we could have a World Series that wasn't saturated with an excessive amount of blue. I almost want either the Giants or Nationals to make it to the World Series just because of it. Almost.

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As someone with a significant amount of Native American heritage on one side of my family, I must say that neither I nor anyone I know is insulted by the Cleveland Indians' or Washington Redskins' name or logos. And quite frankly, I've come to learn that the biggest opposition of both the name and logo comes from people who aren't even Native American. But, you know, let's get rid of everything because there's a chance it might offend one person or a small group of people.

 

Aside from your personal feelings, the Indians look best with Chief Wahoo on their caps. It's a much better logo than a standard block C, though baseball more than any sport lends itself to single letter logos without any further design.

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2 hours ago, AndrewMLind said:

As someone with a significant amount of Native American heritage on one side of my family, I must say that neither I nor anyone I know is insulted by the Cleveland Indians' or Washington Redskins' name or logos. And quite frankly, I've come to learn that the biggest opposition of both the name and logo comes from people who aren't even Native American. But, you know, let's get rid of everything because there's a chance it might offend one person or a small group of people.

 

Aside from your personal feelings, the Indians look best with Chief Wahoo on their caps. It's a much better logo than a standard block C, though baseball more than any sport lends itself to single letter logos without any further design.

Speaking of Indian logos in sports, have anyone else noticed that in the TV show "Vice Principals", the school logo is the old Illinois Fighting Illini logo, just in light blue ?

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12 hours ago, DiePerske said:

From what my memory gives me, Orioles wear the jersey that corresponds to the original my scheduled day of the jersey. So if the canceled game was on a Friday or Saturday, they wear black or orange respectively.

 

I also went to a makeup game on 12 September 2014(a Friday), where the Orioles wore their home whites because the game being made up was a Thursday(11 September 2014). They then wore black in the nightcap. 

 

This sounds right to me.

 

Also, the Indians' Block C looks much, much better with a white outline.  Without the outline, it is practically invisible, whether as blue-on-red or red-on blue.

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I think the Indians are fine as they are. They de-emphasized wahoo enough and now it's not the primary anymore or on the road cap but still on their home uniforms. They can take it off the road sleeve if they must but don't touch the homes.

 

The block C is still awful though. They need to bring back one or both of these logos:

 

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9 hours ago, AndrewMLind said:

As someone with a significant amount of Native American heritage on one side of my family, I must say that neither I nor anyone I know is insulted by the Cleveland Indians' or Washington Redskins' name or logos. And quite frankly, I've come to learn that the biggest opposition of both the name and logo comes from people who aren't even Native American. But, you know, let's get rid of everything because there's a chance it might offend one person or a small group of people.

 

Aside from your personal feelings, the Indians look best with Chief Wahoo on their caps. It's a much better logo than a standard block C, though baseball more than any sport lends itself to single letter logos without any further design.

 

Small group, eh?

 

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ClevelandProtester_sh3dnl.jpg

 

773db52d-acd7-4eca-9280-86d9a0e447c8-680 

 

cleveland-indians.jpg?w=640

 

02cindian-51a0e5e4c40dc255.jpg

 

Agency in representation isn't much to ask. 

 

You want Wahoo to stick around? Show recent, empirical, and verifiable evidence that Native Americans groups are OK with it. Until then, Wahoo and the Washington Football Team's name need to go away for good.

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The part of the "Wahoo: Stay or go?" debate that frustrates me is that it always, always, always comes down to an argument of whether it's racist. 

 

Take the racial component away for a second here. Maybe it's just not a great logo? Maybe, after 60-plus years, it would be OK to come up with something new? Professional sports teams refresh their brand identity every year and no one thinks twice. It's entirely possible that the Indians could do the same without it being a referendum on political correctness.

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I said to my family during the Indians-Red Sox game "Watch the spotlight be on the logo and not the game because the Indians are in the playoffs." and boom, this page blows up about "Chief Wahoo" in less than 24 hours. 

XM4KeeA.png

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10 minutes ago, CitizenTino said:

Maybe it's just not a great logo? Maybe, after 60-plus years, it would be OK to come up with something new? Professional sports teams refresh their brand identity every year and no one thinks twice. It's entirely possible that the Indians could do the same without it being a referendum on political correctness.

 

Yes. Even if it wasn't racist, it would still needs some kind of an update, like what the Orioles did with their cartoon bird logo throughout the years:

 

tenacross1.png~original

 

Better line weights, sharper details, and cleaner renderings would all be fantastic. If the Orioles had resurrected one of the old renderings whole-cloth, even a fan of the cartoon bird like myself would complain about rough details and shoddy rendering. Heck, when Wahoo was digitized in the early-'90's, it would have been a fantastic time to update the rendering to something a little "cleaner." Maybe they would be slightly fewer objections to it.


Heck, maybe refocusing their brand on a dignified portrait of a Native American (like the Washington Football Team or the Blackhawks) would be a good strategy. Trading a cartoon logo for a realistic representation isn't without precedent. The Orioles did it. Although I'm glad the Orioles eventually went back to the cartoon bird, I get why they felt their brand needed a refresh in a new direction. A new direction wouldn't be bad for the Indians.

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Well, in that case, I guess I'm in the wrong. If Native Americans (or at least a few prominent ones, or ones who bother to answer polls) feel "honored" by Little Red Sambo and the Washington Football Team's name, then maybe they should stick around. I guess all of those protesters in the pictures are wrong, and these tribe leaders and polled people are right. I won't object when white people think it's OK to don red paint and headdresses, and I won't argue when people engage in cognitive dissonance of honoring people through the use of the "inferior other" caricature.

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The Indians have tweaked and changed Chief Wahoo multiple times. The current logo needs no more tweaking. The last two times they tried to tweak it, in 2002 when they added an alternate logo with a large grey outline and in 2003 when they changed the regular cap logo's outline to grey, they quickly realized those were mistakes. 

 

Just so you know, calling Chief Wahoo derogatory names is only hurting your argument. In the issue of racism, Chief Wahoo is absolutely insignificant and the more you call the logo racist the less meaning that term has. You're crying wolf. 

 

I agree that this isn't the Chief Wahoo thread. Clearly I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine, so we'll have to agree to disagree. 

 

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It seemed like every game I went to this year, I saw a few protesters. It's annoying but I get it. I just don't agree with the way they handle it. I saw one guy screaming at a family "Good job idiots, you raised your kid to be a racist." Is that right? At this point I'm just sick of people complaining about it.

 

People like the logo, and so do I. But the world is changing and probably time to find something new to use. Just let us keep the name.

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Wahoo's current form is synonymous with the Indians' lengthy World Series drought. It's not like the logo is associated with the franchise's best years or anything. He's never been worn by a World Champion Cleveland Indians team. 

 

So that's good enough reason to ditch Wahoo even if you discount the race element (and I don't believe you can discount the race element).

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I'm not really trying to take a side either way but on the Wahoo debate (I can totally see the reasons why people don't like it), but I had kind of an interesting observation on the logo once. 

 

I used to live in the Phoenix area and worked at just about every Lids store out there. Every store I worked at had an inordinate amount of Cleveland Indians Wahoo caps for sale. It was confusing to me for awhile, but after some time I figured out why. It was because there were quite a few large reservations around the area, and a lot of people who lived on the reservations or associated with the reservations would come in and buy Chief Wahoo gear. They liked it because it was something that they felt represented them and it helped them show the pride they had in their culture. 

 

As a white guy, I don't really have a lot of room to comment on minority racial issues or judge if someone else or other groups should or shouldn't feel offended by certain types of symbolism. But it was interesting to me that there were quite a few people out there who were closely tied with Native American culture who took a certain level of pride in having a sports team represent that culture with a logo. 

 

Again, not trying to take a side, just making an observation. 

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1 hour ago, Ark said:

^That's not really true. Chief Wahoo has been around since 1947 and the red version of him (facing a different direction) has been around since 1948.

This is the uniform set the Indians wore during their first of two World Series championships.

 

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Hey, look at that! A block "C"!

 

Here's the uniform set they wore during their second and most recent World Series Championship in 1948.

 

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Now let's look at that uniform. Wahoo in his current form doesn't appear anywhere on it. The cap uses a red wishbone "C" outlined in white on a navy background. The sleeve logo is a version of Wahoo, but it's the previous version.

 

So I stand by my initial claim that Chief Wahoo as we currently know him has never been worn by a Cleveland Indians World Championship team. Now if you want to argue that the previous version of Wahoo has some Championship cache, go for it. It's even more of a racist, exaggerated cartoon than the current version though, so that may not be in your best interest.

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