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Ice_Cap

WWE Extreme Rules: 4 June 2017

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42 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

Fact is that their only competition for that #2 spot is ROH, and they lack a truly national outlet.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Sinclair bought Tribune recently. They would (at least) have markets in LA (KTLA) and Chicago (WGN) now to help them grow.

 

And for what it's worth, I'd probably put Lucha Underground as the #2 promotion (as long as they can secure a third season).

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1 hour ago, Ice_Cap said:

Just because you didn't care for them doesn't mean they weren't putting on great shows while in TNA. I dare say Roode's title run was "peak" TNA, when the company was at its best. Or AJ. Anyone who regularly watched TNA knew AJ was one of the best in the world long before he went to NJPW. 

 

I think you misunderstood me.  I'm acknowledging that they are stars, but didn't seem like stars when they were on TNA.  Obviously very talented, but just didn't make me care at all.  Maybe it's just that TNA couldn't "produce" them near the level that WWE can (i.e. music, entrance, etc.) or maybe it's the commentary, or maybe it's just the small-time feel of TNA.

 

That these guys are having success on grander stages makes you realize just what TNA truly had, and what they couldn't get over the top with.  They'd probably fail even with Cena, Jericho, and hell... the Rock.

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On 2017-05-18 at 5:37 PM, Atomic said:

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Sinclair bought Tribune recently. They would (at least) have markets in LA (KTLA) and Chicago (WGN) now to help them grow.

 

And for what it's worth, I'd probably put Lucha Underground as the #2 promotion (as long as they can secure a third season).

Lucha's amazing, but I'm still not sure what to make of it. It's more tv show than wrestling promotion.

 

And ROH getting on WGN and KTLA would be a boost, but it won't mean much if WWE buys them out.

 

On 2017-05-18 at 6:06 PM, BringBackTheVet said:

I think you misunderstood me.  I'm acknowledging that they are stars, but didn't seem like stars when they were on TNA.  Obviously very talented, but just didn't make me care at all.  Maybe it's just that TNA couldn't "produce" them near the level that WWE can (i.e. music, entrance, etc.) or maybe it's the commentary, or maybe it's just the small-time feel of TNA.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what qualifies as "small-time" by your standards. TNA/Impact out of Universal is certainly small-time, but you've also described WCW that way, and they sold out arenas and stadiums across the world at one point. Meanwhile you praise the memory of ECW. Which ran shows out of a bingo hall. So I don't know what metric we're using to gauge what is and isn't "small-time."

 

On 2017-05-18 at 6:06 PM, BringBackTheVet said:

That these guys are having success on grander stages makes you realize just what TNA truly had, and what they couldn't get over the top with.  They'd probably fail even with Cena, Jericho, and hell... the Rock.

TNA's problem with "making stars" has always been that they are destined to be a niche product.

WCW Monday Nitro, despite getting trounced in the ratings by Raw from 1999 onward, was still one of the highest rated shows on cable when it was cancelled in 2001. The WCW diehard fans numbered around 3-4 million if ratings are to be believed. These fans were fans of WCW because they preferred that overall style of pro wrestling to what Vince was doing. One thing becomes clear if you track Raw's ratings post-WCW buyout. Those fans didn't switch over. They just stopped watching wrestling.

TNA tried to market itself as the new WCW in terms of how it was produced and presented, but they didn't pick up those 3-4 million fans either. Those fans tuned out after the last Nitro and never came back.

So TNA, as a result, had to build a new fanbase up from scratch. That meant that the audience for that type of wrestling was now niche. Bobby Roode was one of the longest reigning TNA World Champions of all time during one of the company's hottest stretches (in terms of ratings and PPV buys), but there was always going to be a limit.

Even if TNA did everything right and lived up to their potential as "the alternative"? Well that's all they were going to be. The alternative.  Of course Bobby Roode is a bigger star in WWE's developmental territory. TNA, by the very nature of what they are, is a niche.

 

I'm hopeful that Impact can get back to where they were, and realise that they need to embrace the niche role. That's sort of a double-edged sword, because it means you can do stable business without aiming for the moon. It also means the stars you build up have to leave to get bigger or go underappreciated. At least Anthem can afford to pay talent though. That's nice.

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I was a primarily WCW guy who fell off before the bitter end came. I got into WWE around 2004 or 2005 which eventually led me to TNA after a while. I really liked TNA in part because of the X Division which reminded me of the good old days of the cruiserweights in WCW. Unfortunately, they also repeated a lot of the mistakes of WCW which could probably be attributed to them hiring Russo for some godforsaken reason. 

 

Heck, I remember Bobby Roode from his Team Canada days with a clean-shaven, bleach blonde Eric Young who's shtick was getting startled by his own pyro. 

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14 hours ago, Red Wolf said:

Heck, I remember Bobby Roode from his Team Canada days with a clean-shaven, bleach blonde Eric Young who's shtick was getting startled by his own pyro. 

 

Team Canada was awesome. Don't forget Petey Williams, either. The only reason I ever watched TNA in its early days was the Canadian Destroyer finisher he had. I'd never seen anything like it...still haven't. It was a shame they turned Petey into a Scott Steiner clone/henchman. To me, it killed his character cred.

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1 hour ago, agentrygraphics said:

 

Team Canada was awesome. Don't forget Petey Williams, either. The only reason I ever watched TNA in its early days was the Canadian Destroyer finisher he had. I'd never seen anything like it...still haven't. It was a shame they turned Petey into a Scott Steiner clone/henchman. To me, it killed his character cred.

The Canadian Destroyer was mind blowing when I first saw it. I always wanted to see him try it on somebody like Hogan just because there's no way they could have made that work. And let us not forget that Scott Steiner is an absolute treasure.

 

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On 05/18/2017 at 4:54 PM, Ice_Cap said:

Lucha's amazing, but I'm still not sure what to make of it. It's more tv show than wrestling promotion.

 

And ROH getting on WGN and KTLA would be a boost, but it won't mean much if WWE buys them out.

 

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what qualifies as "small-time" by your standards. TNA/Impact out of Universal is certainly small-time, but you've also described WCW that way, and they sold out arenas and stadiums across the world at one point. Meanwhile you praise the memory of ECW. Which ran shows out of a bingo hall. So I don't know what metric we're using to gauge what is and isn't "small-time."

 

TNA's problem with "making stars" has always been that they are destined to be a niche product.

WCW Monday Nitro, despite getting trounced in the ratings by Raw from 1999 onward, was still one of the highest rated shows on cable when it was cancelled in 2001. The WCW diehard fans numbered around 3-4 million if ratings are to be believed. These fans were fans of WCW because they preferred that overall style of pro wrestling to what Vince was doing. One thing becomes clear if you track Raw's ratings post-WCW buyout. Those fans didn't switch over. They just stopped watching wrestling.

TNA tried to market itself as the new WCW in terms of how it was produced and presented, but they didn't pick up those 3-4 million fans either. Those fans tuned after the last Nitro and never came back.

So TNA, as a result, had to build a new fanbase up from scratch. That meant that the audience for that type of wrestling was now niche. Bobby Roode was one of the longest reigning TNA World Champions of all time during one of the company's hottest stretches (in terms of ratings and PPV buys), but there was always going to be a limit.

Even if TNA did everything right and lived up to their potential as "the alternative"? Well that's all they were going to be. The alternative.  Of course Bobby Roode is a bigger star in WWE's developmental territory. TNA, by the very nature of what they are, is a niche.

 

I'm hopeful that Impact can get back to where they were, and realise that they need to embrace the niche role. That's sort of a double-edged sword, because it means you can do stable business without aiming for the moon. It also means the stars you build up have to leave to get bigger or go underappreciated. At least Anthem can afford to pay talent though. That's nice.

Not to get political, but Sinclair still may be forced to sell some 50-100 market stations which they have due to FCC rules and diminish the post-HDNet/AXStv and current ROH audience. There's a national broadcast ownership cap of TV stations.

 

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/business/20170508/sinclair-buying-tribune-media-co-raises-anti-trust-freedom-of-speech-concerns-experts-say

 

https://www.freepress.net/press-release/108051/sinclairs-takeover-tribune-stations-brought-you-trumps-fcc-chairman

 

Sinclair is mostly concerned with easy revenue from cable/satellite subscriptions to erase their new debt. If Sinclair wanted to make more of ROH, they would've converted Tennis Channel into an all-sports channel to rival NBCSN in carriage fees, but still be tennis focused plus their ASN college sports, and ROH on Fridays or Saturdays.

 

Back to rasslin', I thought this was way before 2011, but this was Roode's "moment" and it was fantastic.

 

 

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^ Wonderful.

 

If you want to see the greatest introduction in wrestling history, watch Joel "the quintessential studmuffin" Gertner's intro of the Dudley Boys on ECW Guilty as Charged 1999 on WWEN.  It's beyond fantastic.  Way beyond.  Keep in mind that the Gangsta's music was really Natural Born Killers by Dre and Cube.

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Order of importance for WWE Championships

 

Universal Championship

RAW Women's Championship

RAW Tag Championship

IC Championship

US Championship

Cruiserweight Championship

WWE WHC

SD Women's Championship

SD Tag Championship

 

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21 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

Jindermania's runnin' wild!

Well, in that case, I'd like to amend Vet's list here

 

1 hour ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Order of importance for WWE Championships

 

Universal Championship

RAW Women's Championship

RAW Tag Championship

IC Championship

US Championship

Cruiserweight Championship

NXT Championship

SD Women's Championship

SD Tag Championship

NXT Women's Championship

NXT Tag Team Championship

WWE WHC

I think that'll do it. 

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3 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

^ Wonderful.

 

If you want to see the greatest introduction in wrestling history, watch Joel "the quintessential studmuffin" Gertner's intro of the Dudley Boys on ECW Guilty as Charged 1999 on WWEN.  It's beyond fantastic.  Way beyond.  Keep in mind that the Gangsta's music was really Natural Born Killers by Dre and Cube.

 

Is that the PPV which opened with a ":censored: YOU D-VON" chant? Or am I thinking of Barely Legal?

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16 minutes ago, dont care said:

I. Don't know who this British guy is that's commenting with JR but they really need to shut up and let JR work

It's Nigel McGuinness, for what it's worth. He's a solid commentator, but, yeah, having two play-by-play guys is taking away from having JR there.

 

Side note: Nigel and Cole were great together at the UK Tournament.

 

Other side note, speaking of Cole: I really hope that other guy named Cole is there tonight.

 

Edit: Good lord. That UK title match was incredible.

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They should keep that title on Dunne for at least until next Wrestlemania, if not longer.

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