94 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by talking about ghosts. In a direct answer, is having a stadium in a mostly white area a bad thing?

 

If you are explicitly moving there because it is mostly white, it's not a good look.

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57 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

In a direct answer, is having a stadium in a mostly white area a bad thing?

 

Translation: "Will someone please take the bait? I have a really great (insert false equivalency/reverse racism/etc. here) argument that I'm just dying to make." B)

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30 minutes ago, rams80 said:

 

If you are explicitly moving there because it is mostly white, it's not a good look.

I think you're using the word affluent and white interchangeably. From what I read, the county they moved to paid for about $400 million of the stadium.The move also solved the issue of traffic fans had been having with the downtown location. On top of that it allowed the Braves to build a large amount of infrastructure around the park to lease out to businesses (all of which they own). The only color the Braves really cared about was green. The area is also majority white (although not anywhere near totally white). My original point was, using the word "lilly-white" as a pejorative term to describe an area, while implying that moving to a majority white area is a negative in and of it self ,without giving a reason as to why, comes across as needlessly divisive. 

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12 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

 

Translation: "Will someone please take the bait? I have a really great (insert false equivalency/reverse racism/etc. here) argument that I'm just dying to make." B)

Did I live up to your imagined version of me? I believe what you did is called "building a straw man". I hate using popular nomenclature in a debate, it just feels lazy, but I feel it described your post pretty well.

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21 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

Did I live up to your imagined version of me? I believe what you did is called "building a straw man". I hate using popular nomenclature in a debate, it just feels lazy, but I feel it described your post pretty well.

I think you just described yourself, personally. 

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24 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

My original point was, using the word "lilly-white" as a pejorative term to describe an area, while implying that moving to a majority white area is a negative in and of it self ,without giving a reason as to why, comes across as needlessly divisive

And the point of others is that it looks bad for the team to move from an ethnically diverse neighbourhood to one that's mostly white. 

It comes across as the team not wanting to associate with non-white fans.

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18 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

I think you just described yourself, personally. 

I'm a straw man?

16 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

And the point of others is that it looks bad for the team to move from an ethnically diverse neighbourhood to one that's mostly white. 

It comes across as the team not wanting to associate with non-white fans.

To feel this way is to ignore all of the problems , not based on race, that came with staying in the metro area. The problems of the metro location have nothing to do with it being non white, and the solutions provided by the new location have nothing to do with the demographics being mostly white. This was a decision driven by money. Racism exists, blatant explicit racism. This isn't that.

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1 minute ago, O.C.D said:

I'm a straw man?

I feel like you're constructing your own straw men to fight against. You're ignoring the reasons why people are critical of the Braves' move and creating your own to be mad about. 

No one said having a stadium in a mostly white neighbourhood is bad. That's an argument no one's making that you insist on arguing against regardless. 

The issue people have isn't that the stadium is in a mostly white neighbourhood. The issue people have is that they moved from a diverse neighbourhood to a mostly white one, sending the message that non-white fans weren't welcome. 

 

I'm quite happy you chose to adresss that point eventually and offer an alternative interpretation. You were constructing straw men there for a while though. 

 

3 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

Racism exists, blatant explicit racism.

Racism can be blatant and explicit. It can also be subtle and under the radar. Neither should be acceptable. 

 

6 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

To feel this way is to ignore all of the problems that came with staying in the metro area.

Again, thanks for eventually addressing that people weren't criticizing the stadium being in a white neighbourhood, but rather the move from a diverse one to a less diverse one. I feel like had you made this point earlier instead of arguing against a position that no one was making we'd all be further along. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

I feel like you're constructing your own straw men to fight against. You're ignoring the reasons why people are critical of the Braves' move and creating your own to be mad about. 

No one said having a stadium in a mostly white neighbourhood is bad. That's an argument no one's making that you insist on arguing against regardless. 

The issue people have isn't that the stadium is in a mostly white neighbourhood. The issue people have is that they moved from a diverse neighbourhood to a mostly white one, sending the message that non-white fans weren't welcome. 

 

I'm quite happy you chose to adresss that point eventually and offer an alternative interpretation. You were constructing straw men there for a w

I initially responded to someone calling a suburb lilly white in a pejorative way. It wasn't the only reason he thought the move was bad (bad was an over simplified term, I should have said "an issue"), but the whiteness of the area was a reason. So while no one explicitly said "having a stadium in a mostly white neighborhood is bad", a problem they have is the fact that the stadium moved to a mostly white area, after being in a more racially diverse area. I asked the question "why is moving to a mostly white area a bad thing?" and the answer I got was (essentially) "the old stadium was in an area where more non white people lived, and we feel this move says non-whites aren't welcome anymore"

To say "The issue people have isn't that the stadium is in a mostly white neighborhood" is false. It's 50% of this particular issue (the other 50% being that it's moving from a higher non white population zone) if they had moved to an area that wasn't majority white I don't think it wouldn't be brought up as an issue people have with the move. It's not like the Braves left a better deal on the table in Atlanta just to get out of the city, if that were the case i'd be more inclined to see things your way.

 

With all that being said, to ignore all the financial (and practical) benefits of this move in order to frame this as a racial issue, is not only missing the bigger picture of why this move actually happened, it is also being needlessly divisive. These are my opinions, I understand other people have different opinions. I don't think i've portrayed anyone's position inaccurately, and so, I don't agree that i've been building and fighting straw men. 

 

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2 hours ago, O.C.D said:

Did I live up to your imagined version of me? I believe what you did is called "building a straw man". I hate using popular nomenclature in a debate, it just feels lazy, but I feel it described your post pretty well.

 

Pretty much.

 

With regard to your "straw man" bit, see Ice_Cap's replies to your posts. There's no need for me to repeat what he said. 

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8 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

if they had moved to an area that wasn't majority white I don't think it wouldn't be brought up as an issue people have with the move.

 

Yeah, I'm guessing that no one would have brought up the Braves moving to a "majority white" area if the Braves hadn't moved to a "majority white" area. Astute observation. Well done. 

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8 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

I don't think i've portrayed anyone's position inaccurately,

I disagree. No one ever said a stadium in a white neighbourhood was bad. That's a position you pulled out of thin air to argue against. IE a straw man. 

 

The argument was that the team was sending a message that non-white fans weren't welcome. 

In my opinion? You successfully provided a counter argument by emphasising the logistical and economic advantages to the move. Had you gone straight to that rather than going on about an argument no one was making we wouldn't be in this rut.

 

18 minutes ago, O.C.D said:

it is also being needlessly divisive. 

I don't think so. It was a legitimate concern. Your economic and logistical argument is a fine counter argument to it, and I truly wish that you had gone there instead of inventing the phantom argument of "why do people think it's bad to have a stadium in a white neighbourhood?" 

That was more divisive than anything.

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11 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

 

Pretty much.

 

With regard to your "straw man" bit, see Ice_Cap's replies to your posts. There's no need for me to repeat what he said. 

You built a straw man of me. Ice_cap said I was building a straw man. I responded to his statement. You didn't respond to mine. Repeating Ice_Caps response would have no relevance to what you said.

 

9 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

 

Yeah, I'm guessing that no one would have brought up the Braves moving to a "majority white" area if the Braves hadn't moved to a "majority white" area. Astute observation. Well done. 

Let me explain the idea behind the statement you're referring to. See, what I was trying to convey here was the idea that if all things remained the same in the equation of why the Braves moved, but it was to an area with a non-white majority, I think no one would say it was a move fueled by racism. Were the Braves being racist when they moved? You might think they were. If they moved into an area with the exact same benefits, but the majority race was non white, would you still consider the motives racist? I'd think probably not. If all things were the same, and all you changed was the majority race of both areas, but you'd think of one move as racist and the other as not, you're not seeing the financial reasons that made the move happen, and you're assuming you know the character and intent of the people who made this decision. I hope you better understand what I was trying to say.

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12 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

I disagree. No one ever said a stadium in a white neighbourhood was bad. That's a position you pulled out of thin air to argue against. IE a straw man. 

 

The argument was that the team was sending a message that non-white fans weren't welcome. 

In my opinion? You successfully provided a counter argument by emphasising the logistical and economic advantages to the move. Had you gone straight to that rather than going on about an argument no one was making we wouldn't be in this rut.

 

I don't think so. It was a legitimate concern. Your economic and logistical argument is a fine counter argument to it, and I truly wish that you had gone there instead of inventing the phantom argument of "why do people think it's bad to have a stadium in a white neighbourhood?" 

That was more divisive than anything.

I agree that no one said having a stadium in a white neighborhood was bad. I saw lilly white as a negative portrayal of the area they moved to simply because it was a white area. Maybe I read into a phrase an intent that wasn't meant, i'm willing to coincide that. I think we can both see that some people see the move from a more racially diverse area into a majority white area as a negative (not because the area they moved to is majority white, but that moving to a majority white area after being in a racially diverse area is seen as an attempt to get away from non white fans). That seems to have answered my initial question, but that wasn't the response I first got, so I asked again and we've gotten to this point. 

 

I can see why people would view this as an issue. It's seems like a difference of opinions between what motivated the move. I might be underestimating how many truly racist people exist, and how deeply their motivations are effected by it, or the other side might be seeing racism in a situation that was only really motivated by money, or maybe it's a mixture of both. I don't know. I'd rather not assume the worst of the people who made the move, and in general i'll try not to assume the worst of people on here either.

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