dfwabel

Football and CTE

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6 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

Last time I checked, we didn't live in the old Soviet Union, where people didn't have the freedom to excel in the sport of their choice.

Funny that you mention them

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5 hours ago, Red Wolf said:

"Other sports can teach valuable life lessons as well," being met with comparisons to a communist dictatorship is such a massive leap in logic I'm worried that the CTE got to you. 

 

I can assure you my brain is functioning quite well. But the notion football players should try and switch to another sport is moronic. Other team sports just don't have the same level of training, or under the same conditions. There's a world of difference between training and playing in an air conditioned arena, and baseball players don't have wear the same equipment.

 

There's no good reason why any healthy player should be diverted from football, it's a non-starter. And another inconvenient fact is the recent study showing girls high school soccer has a higher concussion rate than high school football.    

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8 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

 

And this dumb assumption anybody who plays football will suffer brain damage took another hit recently, facts are inconvenient hit recently. The University of Buffalo conducted a study of former Bills and Sabres players, and discovered their brains were just as healthy as athletes from non-contact sports.  

They didn't find early onset dementia, which is being used as a leading indicator for CTE. They weren't directly testing for CTE. It doesn't mean CTE was all made up, but it might mean football and hockey don't automatically fry your brain. I'm not going to play the odds with my kids.

 

Also, it's the University AT Buffalo!

 

Edit: You can read about it here: http://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2018/08/006.html

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3 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

 

I can assure you my brain is functioning quite well. But the notion football players should try and switch to another sport is moronic. Other team sports just don't have the same level of training, or under the same conditions. There's a world of difference between training and playing in an air conditioned arena, and baseball players don't have wear the same equipment.

 

There's no good reason why any healthy player should be diverted from football, it's a non-starter. And another inconvenient fact is the recent study showing girls high school soccer has a higher concussion rate than high school football.    

Good to know. Now remember Cosmic's comment on the university name.

 

Oh and while UB had their press release this week, the L.A. Times reports this:

Quote

In the 18 months since the settlement went into effect, 113 Parkinson’s and 42 ALS claims were filed by former players or their representatives. Of those, 81 Parkinson’s and 30 ALS claims worth a combined $146.5 million either have been paid or approved.

Those figures dwarf projections made in a report commissioned by the players’ lawyers, which estimated that 14 Parkinson’s and 18 ALS claims worth a combined $52.6 million would be paid over the 65-year duration of the settlement. A report commissioned by the NFL predicted 31 paid ALS claims over the settlement’s lifespan; it did not provide specific numbers for Parkinson’s.

 

In 2012, epidemiologists from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention examined death certificates from a group of 3,439 NFL retirees who played at least five seasons in the league from 1959 to 1988. The study found that while former players were three times more likely to die from brain diseases such as Alzheimer’s than similar men in the U.S. population, their risk of dying from Parkinson’s was “elevated but did not reach statistical significance.”

 

  http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-medical-payouts-20180808-story.html

 

If football builds so much "character", are these guys and their families lying to get cash?

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1 hour ago, dfwabel said:

Good to know. Now remember Cosmic's comment on the university name.

 

Oh and while UB had their press release this week, the L.A. Times reports this:

  http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-medical-payouts-20180808-story.html

 

If football builds so much "character", are these guys and their families lying to get cash?

Sometimes people do lie to get in on a lawsuit or blame CTE for everything which goes wrong in there lives. In terms of the pros three times likely to die of Alzheimer's than the normal population, that sounds reasonable, considering the hundreds of thousands of collisions these players have voluntarily taken over the years. And many of those deceased pros and more recent retirees enjoyed a tremendous life, at least partially due to football. And the 3,439 pros are a drop in the bucket compared to the guys who never played in the NFL, but built a successful life thanks in part to college football. And we should also remember it's often easier to make payouts instead of proceeding with more litigation.

 

And this just in, other vocations have a physical price which has to be paid later in life. From construction workers to police officers, and folks who spend too much time sitting down, health issues come up later in life. These players were old enough to make the decision to join the military, and players from the 2000s on are equipped with more information than ever before on the potential risks. It's a voluntarily decision to potentially make enough income in a few years to last a lifetime.

 

So the reality is this, tackle football is still a positive force in society, despite what the NY Times says, and 25 year old bloggers outside this website living in their parent's basement. And the player safety issue can easily be addressed without losing the physical essence of football. This nonsense about eliminating kickoffs is as dumb as telling MLB pitchers not to throw certain pitches because of the stress on the shoulder. Logic and reason will triumph over hysteria and the effort to minimize football in our society.      

 

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15 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

I can assure you my brain is functioning quite well. But the notion football players should try and switch to another sport is moronic. Other team sports just don't have the same level of training, or under the same conditions. There's a world of difference between training and playing in an air conditioned arena, and baseball players don't have wear the same equipment.

 

You're allowed to play football if you want. All I've ever asked for is the information to be presented so people can make an educated decision about whether they and/or their children should play football. It's not a conspiracy to kill football. The NFL for years hid that information and that's the problem. If a football player like Chris Borland reads all this information about the damages of football and decides to walk away I wouldn't call that "moronic" at all. But this idea that football is the ultimate teacher of life lessons compared to other sports is really really silly. Source: Me - played football and other team sports. It was all more or less all the same. 

 

 

Quote

 

There's no good reason why any healthy player should be diverted from football, it's a non-starter. And another inconvenient fact is the recent study showing girls high school soccer has a higher concussion rate than high school football.    

 

1. It's not about concussions. The problem with football is the mini-traumas that add up play after play after play, for thousands of plays over the lifetime of a football career. Those sub-concussive hits, the undetectable ones where the player doesn't even feel it are what causes CTE and other damaging brain conditions. I got a concussion in a high school hockey game, but that's less concerning to me than the 8 years I spent mashing my noggin against other noggins in football even though I never sustained a concussion playing football. I did stop getting headaches almost immediately after my high school football career was over sooooo. 

 

2. This is easily correctable for soccer, less so for football. Bonking heads on every play is not an inherent part of soccer, but it is for football. They go up for headers and heads clunk together, but that doesn't happen that often to one soccer player in a game, and there's a lot you can do to end that. At the youth level you can ban headers or mandate everyone wear a soft cushion helmet and the problem would be mostly solved. 

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19 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

So the reality is this, tackle football is still a positive force in society, despite what the NY Times says

 

Oh, my. 

 

When you’re reduced to using the Times as a boogeyman... 🤣🤣🤣

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19 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

So the reality is this, tackle football is still a positive force in society, despite what the NY Times says, and 25 year old bloggers outside this website living in their parent's basement. And the player safety issue can easily be addressed without losing the physical essence of football. This nonsense about eliminating kickoffs is as dumb as telling MLB pitchers not to throw certain pitches because of the stress on the shoulder. Logic and reason will triumph over hysteria and the effort to minimize football in our society.      

 

VrkMmIF.gif

 

Translation: the pussies, sissies, and wussies want to kill my football! Football is a manly sport for real men who make for a strong, un-f----ty society! Who cares what studies say that clearly have an agenda to kill football, this magical man-making experience?

 

You may try to couch your argument in your misinterpretation of a study or this "positive force" dogma, but you're not convincing anybody here.

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On 8/9/2018 at 9:59 AM, Gold Pinstripes said:

Madonna University in Michigan

 

You major in bothering David Letterman

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22 hours ago, McCarthy said:

 

You're allowed to play football if you want. All I've ever asked for is the information to be presented so people can make an educated decision about whether they and/or their children should play football. It's not a conspiracy to kill football. The NFL for years hid that information and that's the problem. If a football player like Chris Borland reads all this information about the damages of football and decides to walk away I wouldn't call that "moronic" at all. But this idea that football is the ultimate teacher of life lessons compared to other sports is really really silly. Source: Me - played football and other team sports. It was all more or less all the same. 

 

 

 

1. It's not about concussions. The problem with football is the mini-traumas that add up play after play after play, for thousands of plays over the lifetime of a football career. Those sub-concussive hits, the undetectable ones where the player doesn't even feel it are what causes CTE and other damaging brain conditions. I got a concussion in a high school hockey game, but that's less concerning to me than the 8 years I spent mashing my noggin against other noggins in football even though I never sustained a concussion playing football. I did stop getting headaches almost immediately after my high school football career was over sooooo. 

 

2. This is easily correctable for soccer, less so for football. Bonking heads on every play is not an inherent part of soccer, but it is for football. They go up for headers and heads clunk together, but that doesn't happen that often to one soccer player in a game, and there's a lot you can do to end that. At the youth level you can ban headers or mandate everyone wear a soft cushion helmet and the problem would be mostly solved. 

Just like CTE, there's too much we don't know about these mini-hits you're talking about. What we do know, without a doubt, is the significant number of former college and pro players who sustained concussions, and thousands of smaller hits, yet are performing at high levels, decades after their careers ended.  

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13 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

Oh, my. 

 

When you’re reduced to using the Times as a boogeyman... 🤣🤣🤣

I'm not reduced at all, at times, the NY Times has an issue with objective reporting. And so do some internet writers.By the way, I've known and spoken to hundreds to former high school, college, and pro players. 

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12 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

VrkMmIF.gif

 

Translation: the pussies, sissies, and wussies want to kill my football! Football is a manly sport for real men who make for a strong, un-f----ty society! Who cares what studies say that clearly have an agenda to kill football, this magical man-making experience?

 

You may try to couch your argument in your misinterpretation of a study or this "positive force" dogma, but you're not convincing anybody here.

The weakness in your argument is the lack of information we still have about issue. Lots and lots of folks are jumping to conclusions, so the studies I brought up just how how confusing this issue is. When writers aren't bothering to do their research, or imply anyone who plays football is damaged, that's a problem.

 

Anybody who thinks tackle football hasn't been an overall positive force, must be living in a cave their entire lives. Assuming they just don't like the sport, I strongly suggest they begin talking with former players. Too many successful people credit football as part of the reason for their status in life. Along with the entertainment and financial impact, it's a decisive win for tackle football. For every Ohio State scandal, there are untold examples of coaches helping athletes, many of whom grew up without fathers in the household. 

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2 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

I'm not reduced at all, at times, the NY Times has an issue with objective reporting. And so do some internet writers.By the way, I've known and spoken to hundreds to former high school, college, and pro players. 

 

 

Oh well, then.  I guess that Trumps actual scientific research. 

 

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2 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

Anybody who thinks tackle football hasn't been an overall positive force, must be living in a cave their entire lives. Assuming they just don't like the sport, I strongly suggest they begin talking with former players. Too many successful people credit football as part of the reason for their status in life. Along with the entertainment and financial impact, it's a decisive win for tackle football. For every Ohio State scandal, there are untold examples of coaches helping athletes, many of whom grew up without fathers in the household. 

 

Look... I like football.  I played high-level high-school football.  But let's not get crazy here.  America's business and entertainment community would be just fine if football never existed.  The coaches that help athletes and take them in if their home situation is too volatile (this occurred at my HS) had more to do with the players' talents than some altruistic gesture of good will.  Sure, it can teach teamwork and help build camaraderie, but so can plenty of other activities.  I've also seen where football teams act like gangs and commit violent crimes because they can get away with anything (is that teaching a good lesson?) and where kids that were failing out of high school and not even attending college were able to have favors done, grades rigged, eligibility magically restored, etc.

 

The principles of football, like with all team sports and group activities, are great.  Our society, is not, and in 2018, football is teaching a lot of the wrong lessons, and while maybe not an overall negative force, is certainly no positive one.

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On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 10:50 PM, Gold Pinstripes said:

Sometimes people do lie to get in on a lawsuit or blame CTE for everything which goes wrong in there lives. In terms of the pros three times likely to die of Alzheimer's than the normal population, that sounds reasonable, considering the hundreds of thousands of collisions these players have voluntarily taken over the years. And many of those deceased pros and more recent retirees enjoyed a tremendous life, at least partially due to football. And the 3,439 pros are a drop in the bucket compared to the guys who never played in the NFL, but built a successful life thanks in part to college football. And we should also remember it's often easier to make payouts instead of proceeding with more litigation.

 

And this just in, other vocations have a physical price which has to be paid later in life. From construction workers to police officers, and folks who spend too much time sitting down, health issues come up later in life. These players were old enough to make the decision to join the military, and players from the 2000s on are equipped with more information than ever before on the potential risks. It's a voluntarily decision to potentially make enough income in a few years to last a lifetime.

 

So the reality is this, tackle football is still a positive force in society, despite what the NY Times says, and 25 year old bloggers outside this website living in their parent's basement. And the player safety issue can easily be addressed without losing the physical essence of football. This nonsense about eliminating kickoffs is as dumb as telling MLB pitchers not to throw certain pitches because of the stress on the shoulder. Logic and reason will triumph over hysteria and the effort to minimize football in our society.      

 

First off:  guys?  Stopping mocking Danny for his opinions.  He makes some legitimate points in this thread that can't simply be waved away in the same fashion that we can with everything that comes out of the mouth of a Sarah Sanders or Donald Trump as bull**** based solely on the source.

 

But any profession that makes you three times as susceptible to Alzheimer's than the normal population is not a profession that in any other industry wouldn't be under some intense federal scrutiny.  A parallel to this could be made to the coal industry, where those in the mines (among them at one point or another, my father, both my grandfathers, several uncles, and countless family friends) were susceptible to various respiratory issues, including cancer, 'black lung,' etc., which ultimately took their lives.  They knew the risks they took going into that mine every day, but they also saw it as the only means of adequately providing for their families, and saw themselves as having no other skills that could translate into a job that paid a similar wage.  Kind of like an NFL player having the option of making $25,000 a year in an office vs. $2,500,000 playing football.  It's a decision in theory - but it's not really a decision.

 

Once the problem was seen for what it was, the federal government stepped in and mandated working conditions.  They didn't let the coal companies decide to conduct their own research.  They didn't allow them to arbitrarily fix shift lengths or whether employees could continue to hand-shovel coal into transport cars that went to the surface (as my grandfather had done).  They stepped in and said "this is the way this is going to operate from this point forward, period."  In the interest of worker safety, they took the decision-making authority out of the hands of the mining industry's equivalent of pro football - team owners - and implemented their own regulations.  It didn't solve every problem, but it put mechanisms in place that saved countless lives since - and forced an automation of the coal industry to a point where the number of miners that have to risk their lives every day is nominal compared to what was needed a century ago.

 

Perhaps football needs similar outside regulation.  Perhaps for the sake of the safety of its participants overall, those people who purport to know best about the sport need to be removed from the decision-making equation, in favor of people who specialize in safety to the exclusion of all else, and have no concern for preserving the game's traditions.  Bring in people with completely fresh perspectives.  People with no axes to grind.  People unafraid to say, "This is how it must be done going forward," and empowered to enforce it by administering massive fines, or even shutting down teams or entire leagues that don't adhere to those safety standards.

 

17 hours ago, the admiral said:

You major in bothering David Letterman

 

Imagine some of the courses... "Bullet-Bras 101."  "Introduction to Whoredom."

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She's a performance artist, step off!

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8 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

The weakness in your argument is the lack of information we still have about issue. Lots and lots of folks are jumping to conclusions, so the studies I brought up just how how confusing this issue is. When writers aren't bothering to do their research, or imply anyone who plays football is damaged, that's a problem.

 

Anybody who thinks tackle football hasn't been an overall positive force, must be living in a cave their entire lives. Assuming they just don't like the sport, I strongly suggest they begin talking with former players. Too many successful people credit football as part of the reason for their status in life. Along with the entertainment and financial impact, it's a decisive win for tackle football. For every Ohio State scandal, there are untold examples of coaches helping athletes, many of whom grew up without fathers in the household. 

Danny, the NFL is the least toxic of all football. And I like the NFL more than most here.

 

Youth and HS football is the most toxic environment from deaths due to excessive heat, to poor leadership "in the name of manhood", to guys being just being a-holes and allowing rape like in Steubenville Ohio, Danny.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Mac the Knife said:

First off:  guys?  Stopping mocking Danny for his opinions.  He makes some legitimate points in this thread that can't simply be waved away in the same fashion that we can with everything that comes out of the mouth of a Sarah Sanders or Donald Trump as bull**** based solely on the source

 

Yeah, those opinions really do deserve to be roundly mocked.

 

And funny you should raise those other two - they also appeal to emotions, ignore science, elevate shadowy anecdote over hard data, reply to policy criticism with personal attacks, and claim the New York Times is fake news. ;) 

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11 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Yeah, those opinions really do deserve to be roundly mocked.

 

And funny you should raise those other two - they also appeal to emotions, ignore science, elevate shadowy anecdote over hard data, reply to policy criticism with personal attacks, and claim the New York Times is fake news. ;) 

Yeah?  Well, you're a dooty-head.  :D

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3 hours ago, dfwabel said:

Danny, the NFL is the least toxic of all football. And I like the NFL more than most here.

 

Youth and HS football is the most toxic environment from deaths due to excessive heat, to poor leadership "in the name of manhood", to guys being just being a-holes and allowing rape like in Steubenville Ohio, Danny.

 

 

Basketball has plenty of bad actors as well. Youth football and high school football has too many positive stories to ignore. Many young people from single parent households were headed towards incarceration(or worse), but coaches got them pointed in the right direction. The media won't report this, because it's not sensational.

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