Lifespan of new-age arenas

[SFGiants58]

16 minutes ago, DG_Now said:

Contraction seems a better idea, TBH. The world doesn't need any more baseball stadiums.

 

I do wonder which Big Four league will be the first to contract teams in the modern period (the Barons-North Stars merger doesn’t count). Who would be willing to endure the PR nightmare that such action would produce?

[kroywen]

3 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

I do wonder which Big Four league will be the first to contract teams in the modern period (the Barons-North Stars merger doesn’t count). Who would be willing to endure the PR nightmare that such action would produce?

 

It makes the most sense in baseball and hockey. It's incredibly hard for a market to support a baseball team, having to sell seats for a 40,000 ballpark for 81+ dates a year and draw sufficient TV ratings for 162. There's already two failing markets in baseball - Miami and Tampa Bay - and it's tough to see any other markets than can support an ML team. Portland, Charlotte, and Vancouver all have potential, though I think the Carolinas are tapped out for their sports dollar between the Panthers, Hornets, Hurricanes, and the wealth of college basketball there. But would any of those be able to support an ML team right now? It's tough to envision.

 

The NHL has too many teams at this point - there are not 31 markets in North America that can support an NHL team. And it's made worse by the NHL's obstinance in regard to relocating failing teams to viable Canadian markets. But even of those, I'd argue only Quebec City and Hamilton are truly viable markets, and that's dependent on a Hamilton team building a fanbase in what's solid Leafs country (we saw how long that took for the Devils to do in Rangers country).

 

Still, I can't see it actually happening in either case. The PR blowback would be immeasurable, and you need two markets that are beyond hope to do it. Baseball could've gotten away with it in 2002 if Miami were more clearly failing at that point - the attempt to contract the Twins was always unreasonable. But MLB contraction nowadays would probably mean contracting both Florida teams at once, which isn't realistic at all.

[crashcarson15]

9 minutes ago, kroywen said:

The NHL has too many teams at this point - there are not 31 markets in North America that can support an NHL team. And it's made worse by the NHL's obstinance in regard to relocating failing teams to viable Canadian markets. But even of those, I'd argue only Quebec City and Hamilton are truly viable markets, and that's dependent on a Hamilton team building a fanbase in what's solid Leafs country (we saw how long that took for the Devils to do in Rangers country).

Eh, I think there are 31 viable NHL markets, the league’s just only in 28 — I’d say Arizona, Carolina and Florida are the only markets that aren’t necessarily viable, while Quebec and Seattle definitely are, and Hamilton is probably viable.

[Corvus]

On 3/11/2018 at 3:39 PM, the admiral said:

Have they put any money into perking up the facade? Last I saw, it was a big grey box between big grey viaducts.

 

The viaducts are going to come down, probably because the city is the pocket of developers*, and it will free up a bunch of super valuable land for development. Given our insane housing market making your average crack-shack multi million dollar properties, I can't imagine another site downtown where you could build an arena in Vancouver. 

 

*also, they are artifacts of a downtown highway system that was begun in the 60's, but literally nothing else of it ever was. 

 

 

[Gothamite]

1 hour ago, kroywen said:

 

The Dolans have no desire to relocate MSG, so they'd be forced to move unwillingly by the city if/when that ever occurs. I haven't heard anything about the city trying to relocate MSG in years, though I wouldn't be surprised if it comes up again when MSG's current operating permit is up in 2023 (I believe).

 

There was definitely a movement to get them out when the lease was up.  Sadly it seems to have been dropped.

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, kroywen said:

Still, I can't see it actually happening in either case. The PR blowback would be immeasurable, and you need two markets that are beyond hope to do it. Baseball could've gotten away with it in 2002 if Miami were more clearly failing at that point - the attempt to contract the Twins was always unreasonable. But MLB contraction nowadays would probably mean contracting both Florida teams at once, which isn't realistic at all.

 

Players unions would be the biggest reason it never happens.  Even the MLB contraction process that was started a while back would never have actually resulted in teams going away once it got to the legal battles.  

[Sport]

On 3/17/2018 at 10:04 PM, chcarlson23 said:

The St. Paul Civic Center had clear dasher boards till somewhere in the 90s... The reason they were replaced is the same reason why that clear forcefield idea won't fly... There's no space for advertisements... 

No the boards and the ads would remain, but instead of glass you have a 100% transparent, science-fiction forcefield that extends to the ceiling. All it needs is someone to invent the technology.

[BBTV]

It would be great if the forcefield had electicrical properties and the puck exploded on contact, so if it was flying toward your face you could just sit back and enjoy the fireworks. 

 

I’m not sure how to make the pucks explode without also having the players blow up too - someone will have to invent that too. 

 

 

 

[who do you think]

On 3/18/2018 at 6:45 PM, kroywen said:

Still, I can't see it actually happening in either case. The PR blowback would be immeasurable, and you need two markets that are beyond hope to do it. Baseball could've gotten away with it in 2002 if Miami were more clearly failing at that point - the attempt to contract the Twins was always unreasonable. But MLB contraction nowadays would probably mean contracting both Florida teams at once, which isn't realistic at all.

 

Marlins Park is only five years old and was built with public funds. If MLB contracts the Marlins they can kiss goodbye any possible public funding for their stadiums for a while.

[kroywen]

5 hours ago, who do you think said:

 

Marlins Park is only five years old and was built with public funds. If MLB contracts the Marlins they can kiss goodbye any possible public funding for their stadiums for a while.

 

Hence why it's not realistic right now. Though in 15-20 years, if the Marlins still aren't profitable, I'm sure you'll see renewed calls for relocation (likely not contraction). There's only so long the "wait and see how the new ballpark affects profitability" game will go on.

[MadmanLA]

On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 3:00 PM, kroywen said:

 

The Dolans have no desire to relocate MSG, so they'd be forced to move unwillingly by the city if/when that ever occurs. I haven't heard anything about the city trying to relocate MSG in years, though I wouldn't be surprised if it comes up again when MSG's current operating permit is up in 2023 (I believe).

 

I still, to this day, find it a bit laughable that James Dolan spent more than a billion dollars of his father's money to fund the MSG renovation, and the city still might boot them from the Penn Station site.  Just to build a new arena anywhere in Manhattan is going to be a minimum of $1 billion, and perhaps even more once we cross into the 2020s.

 

Anywho, if you been around Los Angeles lately, there's really been a building boom in and around downtown (just as an example, there's five highrises currently under construction on what were old parking lots for the Staples Center/LA Live/Convention Center complex, plus continuing Metro Rail construction), plus elsewhere around town.  Just head down Figueroa Street from Staples Center, the Los Angeles FC stadium is a month away from its grand opening (April 29th, coincidentally the 26th anniversary of the L.A. riots), and the Coliseum is still in the middle of its renovation (the Scholarship Tower, press box re-construction, south stands rebuilt).  The Kroenkedome in Inglewood is coming along nicely, and if Ballmer can get his arena built across the street, there and the downtown region (even if you include Dodger Stadium and Exposition Park) become the true epicenters for sports in Los Angeles. 

 

One thing about the sports venues here, they get much more longer use than in most other cities...the Rose Bowl and Coliseum both turn 100 in a few years, Dodger Stadium is 56 years old this year, Pauley Pavillion at UCLA is 52, Angel Stadium is at 51 years and counting, Stub Hub Center at Cal State Dominguez Hills (Carson) turns 15 this year, and USC's Galen Center is 12 years old, but outside of Stub Hub and Galen, all of them went through some sort of renovations in recent years.  Next season, it'll be the 20th season for the three main occupants of Staples Center...it doesn't seem that long ago seeing the Lakers at the Forum, and the Clippers at the Sports Arena, but Staples was not only just a "game-changer" for each franchise, but it absolutely helped transform Downtown Los Angeles into what is today.

[smzimbabwe]

On 3/18/2018 at 6:16 PM, BringBackTheVet said:

 

Players unions would be the biggest reason it never happens.  Even the MLB contraction process that was started a while back would never have actually resulted in teams going away once it got to the legal battles.  

I don't recall the specifics of the MLB contraction plans, but didn't the owners propose increasing roster size per team to make up for the teams lost?

[The_Admiral]

2 hours ago, MadmanLA said:

I still, to this day, find it a bit laughable that James Dolan spent more than a billion dollars of his father's money to fund the MSG renovation, and the city still might boot them from the Penn Station site.  Just to build a new arena anywhere in Manhattan is going to be a minimum of $1 billion, and perhaps even more once we cross into the 2020s.

 

I think the ship has sailed (or the train has left the station) on demolishing Madison Square Garden. With all the money that's gone into MSG and Penn Station renovations, the crappy status quo is probably here to stay.

 

Also, speaking of MSG, I'm not so sure Ballmer will get his Inglewood arena. Why would they put all that money into renovating the Forum only to lose events to an arena next door? (Not to mention, isn't the Hollywood Park/NFL West campus supposed to have a concert hall or something included?) It seems gratuitous to me. They don't need their own arena.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

2 hours ago, MadmanLA said:

 

One thing about the sports venues here, they get much more longer use than in most other cities...the Rose Bowl and Coliseum both turn 100 in a few years, Dodger Stadium is 56 years old this year, Pauley Pavillion at UCLA is 52, Angel Stadium is at 51 years and counting, Stub Hub Center at Cal State Dominguez Hills (Carson) turns 15 this year, and USC's Galen Center is 12 years old, but outside of Stub Hub and Galen, all of them went through some sort of renovations in recent years.  Next season, it'll be the 20th season for the three main occupants of Staples Center...it doesn't seem that long ago seeing the Lakers at the Forum, and the Clippers at the Sports Arena, but Staples was not only just a "game-changer" for each franchise, but it absolutely helped transform Downtown Los Angeles into what is today.

 

As someone who recently visited LA for the first time last year and stayed downtown....I'd hate to have seen what it was before.

 

LA is awesome, but its downtown has a ways to go.

 

31 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Also, speaking of MSG, I'm not so sure Ballmer will get his Inglewood arena. Why would they put all that money into renovating the Forum only to lose events to an arena next door? (Not to mention, isn't the Hollywood Park/NFL West campus supposed to have a concert hall or something included?) It seems gratuitous to me. They don't need their own arena.

 

PNW-based conspiracy theorists say he's sinking money into Inglewood so it doesn't look as bad when he moves the Clips to Seattle.

[BBTV]

57 minutes ago, smzimbabwe said:

I don't recall the specifics of the MLB contraction plans, but didn't the owners propose increasing roster size per team to make up for the teams lost?

 

Wouldn't matter.  2 fewer teams means two fewer starters at each position, which means fewer players earning starters dollars.

 

Expanding the rosters doesn't help the main problem at all, since it's about more than just total number of players.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

10 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

Wouldn't matter.  2 fewer teams means two fewer starters at each position, which means fewer players earning starters dollars.

 

Expanding the rosters doesn't help the main problem at all, since it's about more than just total number of players.

 

But given that MLB owners are colluding to control costs, does it even matter anyways?

[ElwoodCuse]

On 3/18/2018 at 6:32 PM, SFGiants58 said:

 

I do wonder which Big Four league will be the first to contract teams in the modern period (the Barons-North Stars merger doesn’t count). Who would be willing to endure the PR nightmare that such action would produce?

 

A big four team is never going to be contracted unless there is a completely ruinous economic downturn in the US. Like, probably past the great depression because 2008 didn't matter

[MadmanLA]

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 6:36 PM, DG_Now said:

 

As someone who recently visited LA for the first time last year and stayed downtown....I'd hate to have seen what it was before.

 

LA is awesome, but its downtown has a ways to go.

 

Downtown L.A. was one of those places where you just came to work and/or conduct business, and then you get the hell out.  Beyond the Music Center complex (which includes the Disney Concert Hall), there wasn't really much there as far as cultural/fun activities to do in the downtown core before Staples opened.  Just in the last decade alone, more and more people have not only made Downtown a destination place, but are moving in as well...young out-of-towners, USC students (thanks to the Expo Line), and single working people.  Even Skid Row, the homeless epicenter of L.A, on DTLA's east side, has been experiencing gentrification to the point where these folks are setting up in other parts of the city. 

[Discrim]

On 3/12/2018 at 10:27 AM, DiePerske said:

I sat behind the bench once at an AHL game, and the fun part was seeing all of the players up close. 

 

Game view was lacking, but was fun to do once. 

Sat behind the bench at a high school basketball game once...and hightailed it to the student section within 10 minutes.  Guess being up close to the players is more fun if you don't know most of them?.   That and the view stunk.

[MJWalker45]

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Astrodome-Conservancy-Harris-County-announces-12766757.php

The Astrodome will continue to live on, though no longer as a sports arena. It really hasn't been that for quite a while since Nrg Stadium opened. Strangely enough the original national landmark designation only applied to the dome and outer walls of the stadium, not the innards of it.