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13 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

He's had the option to go to a Western team. Hmmm, why do you think he hasn't? Could it be that he's smart enough to realize he wouldn't have nearly the stranglehold on The West as he does in the East? 

 

Does Lebron see the same kind of success if he played his career out West? Does he still make 8 straight Finals or anything close to that? 

That's been my whole point from the beginning. As amazing as he is, his achievements like  "8-straight Finals" and dragging this shiity team to The Finals is more a product of how bad The East has been over the years. That doesn't happen out West and you know it.     

So because he's smart enough to play in the East instead of running a seemingly endless gauntlet in the West that's a mark against him? Especially when the Cleveland team that he went back to won 30 games the year before? I think that team making the playoffs, let alone the Finals was a bigger ask than beating a Golden State team that was still unknown when he went back to Cleveland. And why do you keep using the word troll? He's not calling other players or teams out, he's just winning games. And if he goes to the West this offseason like everyone wants to happen to avoid a LeBron vs Warrior V, what happens if he joins the Warriors? Not likely, just asking.

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25 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

And I keep noticing my main question keeps being dodged,

Does Lebron see the same kind of success if he played his career out West? Does he still make 8 straight Finals or anything close to that? 

That's been my whole point from the beginning. As amazing as he is, his achievements like  "8-straight Finals" and dragging this shiity team to The Finals is more a product of how bad The East has been over the years. That doesn't happen out West and you know it.     

 

For one, nobody's dodging your question. It's been answered countless times. You just didn't like the answer. The answer is "maybe not, but..." Maybe he loses a conference finals or two in the West, but if he starts his career in the west then the last 15 years of league history unfold completely different. Free agents choose the East over the west, team records are different so lotteries go to other teams, and so on and so forth. Who knows what his supporting cast would look like if he was on a team in the West? If he's in the West the league doesn't look the same as it does now. His influence shapes the roster of every other team. That's a concept you keep dodging. 

 

And two, that doesn't mean that making 8 straight finals in the East isn't also a remarkable achievement on its own. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse. 

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1 hour ago, ozzyman314 said:

You think he gets away with trolling the league bringing this garbage team to The Finals out West? Yes or No. 

 

Considering he played in the West, it wouldn't be the same garbage Eastern squad, would it, but a superior Western team around him, right? Or does the premise of him playing in the West oblige him to be surrounded by the same roster only?

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Just now, truepg said:

 

Considering he played in the West, it wouldn't be the same garbage Eastern squad, would it, but a superior Western team around him, right? Or does the premise of him playing in the West oblige him to be surrounded by the same roster only?

This. If he goes West he's picking a team that can win right now or has the parts in place to trade for who he wants on the team. And guess what? That's probably Houston, San Antonio or the Lakers. If you add LeBron to Houston do you think it even gets to Game 7? 

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Just now, MJWalker45 said:

This. If he goes West he's picking a team that can win right now or has the parts in place to trade for who he wants on the team. And guess what? That's probably Houston, San Antonio or the Lakers. If you add LeBron to Houston do you think it even gets to Game 7? 

 

Or, what I was implying, was that he would automatically have a superior roster around him in the West, since it would be a Western team. Right?

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8 minutes ago, truepg said:

 

Or, what I was implying, was that he would automatically have a superior roster around him in the West, since it would be a Western team. Right?

Most likely yes since I can't see him not playing for a Top 4 team regardless of the money on offer. 

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It's the Butterfly Effect. DG already brought up the alternate history if Memphis wins the lottery for him. That's an almost impossible 'What If?' discussion to have because it changes everything so much we have no way of knowing how the league unfolds after that. The Sonics might still exist and the Cavs could be in Oklahoma City. We don't know. The only certain thing in that scenario is if he goes West then both conferences look remarkably different today than they do right now.

 

Imagine the alternate universe where he's taking the Lakers to their 8th straight final, Sabresrule is bitching about how boring that is and how the Lakers always get the good players just because it's LA, and Ozzyman is on here going "yeah but it's not an accomplishment because he did it in the super crappy West. I'd like to see him do it in the East".

 

It's a chucklehead argument.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

So because he's smart enough to play in the East instead of running a seemingly endless gauntlet in the West that's a mark against him? Especially when the Cleveland team that he went back to won 30 games the year before? I think that team making the playoffs, let alone the Finals was a bigger ask than beating a Golden State team that was still unknown when he went back to Cleveland. And why do you keep using the word troll? He's not calling other players or teams out, he's just winning games. And if he goes to the West this offseason like everyone wants to happen to avoid a LeBron vs Warrior V, what happens if he joins the Warriors? Not likely, just asking.

Considering The West has had much stronger teams over The Years in comparison to the East, it certainly diminishes the accomplishment. And at this point him making it to The Finals with such a bad team is kind of a troll to all the other teams in The East. 

 

44 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

For one, nobody's dodging your question. It's been answered countless times. You just didn't like the answer. The answer is "maybe not, but..." Maybe he loses a conference finals or two in the West, but if he starts his career in the west then the last 15 years of league history unfold completely different. Free agents choose the East over the west, team records are different so lotteries go to other teams, and so on and so forth. If he's in the West the league doesn't look the same as it does now. His influence shapes the roster of every other team. That's a concept you keep dodging. 

 

And two, that doesn't mean that making 8 straight finals in the East isn't also a remarkable achievement on its own. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse.

It's not exactly a hard question to answer and you're making it needlessly more complicated than it has to be just to defend him. 

Give him the same calibre of teams he's had over the years, but in The West. Where he has to go through Kawhi's Spurs, Kobe's Lakers, Grizzlies, Curry's Warriors, The Rockets, etc over the years, does he replicate the dominance he has in The East? You know the answer is no he doesn't. 

So why is it so hard to accept that he's benefitted by staying in the weaker conference and that diminishes those kind of achievements? Like bragging about all the division titles The Patriots won. Sure it's impressive, and may not happen again, but it's not that impressive when you realize the lack of any real competition they faced for it. 

Again, If he did that while facing all those amazing teams The West had, that's certainly more of an accomplishment to the clabre you think it is. 

39 minutes ago, truepg said:

 

Considering he played in the West, it wouldn't be the same garbage Eastern squad, would it, but a superior Western team around him, right? Or does the premise of him playing in the West oblige him to be surrounded by the same roster only?

:censored: put him on The Kings, does he make The Finals this year like in The East. No he doesn't. He loses in the first round. 

    

 

Lebron doesn't have the same success in The West going through all those stacked WC teams through the years as he does in The East. Why are you all trying so hard like massive fanboys to avoid the fact?

Would he still be considered one the greats? Yes, but he'd just have a fraction of that success because he actually faced competition getting there.  

 

It's not a bad thing to acknowledge, "hey this guy was one of the greats, but the fact that he never faced strong competition (except at The Finals where he clearly struggled) hurts his legacy a bit." 

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2 hours ago, ozzyman314 said:

It's funny how are trying to use the Celtics are some scapegoat. It has nothing to do with them and everything to do with how watered down the East has been since Lebron took over. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that he probably would not have done as well in The West where the teams have been so much better?

Consistency, man. That’s why. 

You have, for over a year now, been saying that the Celtics were going to run away with the East and challenge the Warriors. 

 

Now that LeBron’s Cavs have beaten them? You can’t shut up about how the East sucks and LeBron is dominating basketball’s equivalent of the Arena Football League (which is laughable in and of itself).

 

You went from praising the Celtics as the next team to take the NBA by storm to saying the entire East sucks anyway so LeBron’s dominance doesn’t really count.

 

It all just makes you look salty and bitter about the fact that the Cavs beat the Celtics. 

Learn to live with it and stop making laughably absurd assertions.

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Lebron James making it to 8 straight Finals is superhuman. Trying to discount it is like if, out of nowhere, Superman became a real life person and flew around the Earth so fast he made it rotate backwards, and you saw that and said "OK, but Earth is a pretty tiny planet with not a lot of gravity. If he was as powerful as people say he is he should've spun Jupiter backwards." At some point it turns into goalpost moving and ignoring an incredible feat of sports history. I am not a Lebron James fanboy, I'm not a basketball nut, but it's just better to see an awesome athlete of my time and enjoy his career unfolding without trying to undercut it or, worse, make me upset and angry like it's some human rights violation for a player or a team to be great (even at the expense of teams that I like).

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Quote

It's not exactly a hard question to answer and you're making it needlessly more complicated than it has to be just to defend him. 

 

Forgive me for defending a guy who's made the finals 8 years in a row. If you put him on the Kings he probably doesn't make 8 straight finals. But if he's on the Kings then the rest of the league is different. If he played in the Dleague making 8 straight Dleague finals would be impressive. You're criticizing him for his own greatness. 

 

Quote

Give him the same calibre of teams he's had over the years, but in The West. Where he has to go through Kawhi's Spurs, Kobe's Lakers, Grizzlies, Curry's Warriors, The Rockets, etc over the years, does he replicate the dominance he has in The East? You know the answer is no he doesn't. 

 

Give him the same caliber of teams he's had over the years, but he has to wear rollerskates and the other teams get to start with a 20 point lead? does he replicate the dominance he has in the East? You know the answer is no he doesn't. 

 

That's what your hypothetical is. It's nonsense because we can only go off of what's actually happened. 

 

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So why is it so hard to accept that he's benefitted by staying in the weaker conference and that diminishes those kind of achievements?

 

He has benefited from playing in the Eastern Conference, but it's still the NBA and he's still playing against world class players.

 

Listen to yourself - a guy made 8 straight finals in this day and age and you're like "NOT IMPRESSED". Maybe if it was like 3 or 4 you might be able to say he lucked into it, like the 02/03 Nets kind of just won a weak conference, but it's 8. As in 2 times 4. Take Charles Barkley's 1 finals appearance, now multiply that by 8. Take Malone and Stockton's 2 Jazz finals appearances, add them together, multiply that by 2 and you get 8. Take all of Shaq's finals appearances, now add 2. Most guys in the NBA don't even play 8 years total. 8 straight is Bill Russell stuff. That's :censored: we never thought we'd see again and you're like "yeah but like the Raptors". The current Orlando Magic roster would destroy the 86 Celtics. These  are real good basketball players he's playing here. 

 

Quote

Like bragging about all the division titles The Patriots won. Sure it's impressive, and may not happen again, but it's not that impressive when you realize the lack of any real competition they faced for it. 

 

That's you not understanding how good the competition is and how good he has to be to beat them. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse. 

 

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53 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

The yadda yadda, The buncha words, The same arguement, The blah blah blah...

 

 

Seriously, now PLEASE tell me why you keep capitalizing the The.  Please.  I can't just keep reading this without some sort of explanation.

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As done by others or even myself for the LeBron's return to Cleveland...

 

Those on this board rarely or never criticize Magic Johnson for his nine NBA Finals appearances in his first 12 seasons.  Only the Moses Malone Rockets (81), Twin Towers Rockets (86) and the KJ/Chambers Suns (90).  I'm not going to count his comeback season in which he lost to HOU yet again. 

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30 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

Consistency, man. That’s why. 

You have, for over a year now, been saying that the Celtics were going to run away with the East and challenge the Warriors. 

 

Now that LeBron’s Cavs have beaten them? You can’t shut up about how the East sucks and LeBron is dominating basketball’s equivalent of the Arena Football League (which is laughable in and of itself).

 

You went from praising the Celtics as the next team to take the NBA by storm to saying the entire East sucks anyway so LeBron’s dominance doesn’t really count.

 

It all just makes you look salty and bitter about the fact that the Cavs beat the Celtics. 

Learn to live with it and stop making laughably absurd assertions.

"Absurd assertions" Now that's some hilarious irony. 

If it helps you feel better then sure, You're already proving to be willfully ignorant. 

23 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

 

Forgive me for defending a guy who's made the finals 8 years in a row. If you put him on the Kings he probably doesn't make 8 straight finals. But if he's on the Kings then the rest of the league is different. If he played in the Dleague making 8 straight Dleague finals would be impressive. You're criticizing him for his own greatness. 

I'm criticizing the fact he has hasn't has faced serious competition in those 8 years, so it's not that impressive when you compare the teams The East has had to The West. Like it or not the fact he played in The East while The West teams were the ones really staked hurts his legacy. 

 

24 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

Give him the same caliber of teams he's had over the years, but he has to wear rollerskates and the other teams get to start with a 20 point lead? does he replicate the dominance he has in the East? You know the answer is no he doesn't. 

 

That's what your hypothetical is. It's nonsense because we can only go off of what's actually happened. 

 

Not really considering the only real struggles he had was against those Westen teams in The Finals. 

 

27 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

He has benefited from playing in the Eastern Conference, but it's still the NBA and he's still playing against world class players.

 

Listen to yourself - a guy made 8 straight finals in this day and age and you're like "NOT IMPRESSED". Maybe if it was like 3 or 4 you might be able to say he lucked into it, like the 02/03 Nets kind of just won a weak conference, but it's 8. As in 2 times 4. Take Charles Barkley's 1 finals appearance, now multiply that by 8. Take Malone and Stockton's 2 Jazz finals appearances, add them together, multiply that by 2 and you get 8. Take all of Shaq's finals appearances, now add 2. Most guys in the NBA don't even play 8 years total. 8 straight is Bill Russell stuff. That's :censored: we never thought we'd see again and you're like "yeah but like the Raptors". The current Orlando Magic roster would destroy the 86 Celtics. These  are real good basketball players he's playing here. 

 

Yeah, and look at the teams he had to face in those 8 years compared to The teams in The Western Conference. You act like The Teams he's faced were absolutely amazingly stacked teams. They were great but not as good as The Team's out West, Where most of those teams could have at least challenged Lebron. 

Dominating for 8 straight isn't impressive when there was almost never any challenge or adversity to it.

 

 

44 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

That's you not understanding how good the competition is and how good he has to be to beat them. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse. 

 

So Sorry you're too blinded by your admiration of Lebron to realize him taking advantage of a weaker conference that's hasn't had a truly stacked team to challenge him since like 2012 isn't that impressive. 

The West has The Kawhi Spurs, Kobe Lakers, Curry's Warriors. How many teams like that has The East had?

Making 8 straight Finals when having to go through some of those teams through The Years, now that would be an accomplishment. 

 

Again, it's not a hard or terrible thing to acknowledge that his legacy will be hurt a bit because he played in a weaker conference while all the stronger teams were out West, and he has a losing record when having to face those teams. 

The Fact he only has 3 rings when he's going to his 8th Final kind of proves his dominance is more a product of how bad the East has been in those years. 

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4 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

"Absurd assertions" Now that's some hilarious irony. 

If it helps you feel better then sure, You're already proving to be willfully ignorant. 

I'm criticizing the fact he has hasn't has faced serious competition in those 8 years, so it's not that impressive when you compare the teams The East has had to The West. Like it or not the fact he played in The East while The West teams were the ones really staked hurts his legacy. 

 

That's you not understanding how good the competition is and how good he has to be to beat them. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse. 

 

4 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

Not really considering the only real struggles he had was against those Westen teams in The Finals. 

 

That's you not understanding how good the competition is and how good he has to be to beat them. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse. 

4 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

Yeah, and look at the teams he had to face in those 8 years compared to The teams in The Western Conference. You act like The Teams he's faced were absolutely amazingly stacked teams. They were great but not as good as The Team's out West, Where most of those teams could have at least challenged Lebron. 

Dominating for 8 straight isn't impressive when there was almost never any challenge or adversity to it.

 

That's you not understanding how good the competition is and how good he has to be to beat them. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse. 

4 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

 

So Sorry you're too blinded by your admiration of Lebron to realize him taking advantage of a weaker conference that's hasn't had a truly stacked team to challenge him since like 2012 isn't that impressive. 

The West has The Kawhi Spurs, Kobe Lakers, Curry's Warriors. How many teams like that has The East had?

Making 8 straight Finals when having to go through some of those teams through The Years, now that would be an accomplishment. 

 

That's you not understanding how good the competition is and how good he has to be to beat them. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse. 

 

4 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

Again, it's not a hard or terrible thing to acknowledge that his legacy will be hurt a bit because he played in a weaker conference while all the stronger teams were out West, and he has a losing record when having to face those teams. 

The Fact he only has 3 rings when he's going to his 8th Final kind of proves his dominance is more a product of how bad the East has been in those years. 

 

That's you not understanding how good the competition is and how good he has to be to beat them. He never got injured, an opponent never put together a team good enough to knock him off, he's played the equivalent of two extra seasons in intense games and still made it to June every year. These are the best basketball players in the world and he still beats them every year. If you don't understand why that's impressive by now you're being willfully obtuse. 

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LeBron is great, easily the pinnacle player of this generation. The Celtics will probably be back next year (healthy) and end up getting revenge, but we'll see what happens. So with that said... please...

 

Image result for stop it gif

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You can repeat the same garbage over and over, it doesn't mean :censored: when you are deliberately ignoring the facts.

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1 minute ago, ozzyman314 said:

You can repeat the same garbage over and over, it doesn't mean :censored: when you are deliberately ignoring the facts.

 

Oh. Oh god. The sweet, sweet, sweet irony.

 

 

14 minutes ago, ozzyman314 said:

Again, it's not a hard or terrible thing to acknowledge that his legacy will be hurt a bit because he played in a weaker conference while all the stronger teams were out West, and he has a losing record when having to face those teams. 

 

No one will be thinking about this in 10 years.

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