Chief Wahoo’s Last Season

[IceCap]

Just now, andrewharrington said:

I suppose the key distinction for me is that the franchise never played a major league game before buying the Spiders’ assets. The Western League was considered minor and didn’t declare itself “major” until 1899 happened and it renamed itself as the American League.

We tend to talk about teams getting "promoted" in the sense that the San Diego Padres and the Vancouver Canucks were "promoted," but there really isn't much continuity in player personnel between the minor and major league versions of those clubs.

 

With the Grand Rapids/Cleveland Far Too Many Names to Mention Before Indians team? The transition from the minor league WL to major league AL team had a pretty consistent continuity as far as personnel goes. So I think it's fair to say the Indians and Spiders franchises played concurrently.

[Gothamite]

22 minutes ago, ptaylor said:

There has got to be some imagery that is considered respectful for the 21st century. The Spokane Indians use feathers in their logos, I say go for it. 

 

The difference is that Spokane worked with the local nation to create an identity that they were okay with.   I know there are no federally recognized nations in Ohio, but if Cleveland could do the same with any tribes who had history in the state, then I’m sure they could come to the same result Spokane did.  

[andrewharrington]

20 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

We tend to talk about teams getting "promoted" in the sense that the San Diego Padres and the Vancouver Canucks were "promoted," but there really isn't much continuity in player personnel between the minor and major league versions of those clubs.

 

With the Grand Rapids/Cleveland Far Too Many Names to Mention Before Indians team? The transition from the minor league WL to major league AL team had a pretty consistent continuity as far as personnel goes. So I think it's fair to say the Indians and Spiders franchises played concurrently.

 

Well yes, just not at equal levels. They never coexisted as major league ball clubs.

 

Either way, it’s not meant to justify the Spiders name as the best choice, only to point out that the Spiders’ lineage does run into and is a part of the Indians’ lineage, just not in the typical manner of “this franchise moved/changed its name to become this one.” They myth that the two teams have no connection is simply not true. The Seals/Barons lineage is still part of the North Stars lineage even though the two franchises both existed concurrently in the NHL.

[SFGiants58]

Just now, Gothamite said:

 

The difference is that Spokane worked with the local nation to create an identity that they were okay with.   I know there are no federally recognized nations in Ohio, but if Cleveland could do the same with any tribes who had history in the state, then I’m sure they could come to the same result Spokane did.  

 

My angle was to engage with Louis Sockalexis’ tribe, the Penobscots.

 

From a concepts thread I made:

 

Quote

While I initially wanted to pay tribute to tribes from Ohio, I decided (with somehelp from posters like @hawk36 and @Gothamite) that the best route would be to link the team to the "Indian" who played for the team and became their apocryphal namesake, Louis Sockalexis of the Maine Penobscots. The article mentioned above claimed the Penobscots' tribal council opposing Wahoo, so I'm not sure how receptive they would be to the team working with them to "refine" the brand. 

 

(Shameless) Link:

 

Turn that apocryphal story, used to justify the old identity, into something productive.

[Gothamite]

That is a fantastic idea, @SFGiants58.  I think I now remember you sharing it before.

 

It's such an elegant and simple solution.  Work with the people involved to mitigate any concerns about appropriation or appropriateness.  And as we've seen with Spokane, that can result in a fantastic logo.

 

 

[verno]

On 9/7/2018 at 2:13 PM, BringBackTheVet said:

 

This guy did it better:

 

My hero

[skip88]

1 hour ago, verno said:

My hero

Belee' Dat

[slapshot]

On 9/11/2018 at 8:42 PM, Gothamite said:

That is a fantastic idea, @SFGiants58.  I think I now remember you sharing it before.

 

It's such an elegant and simple solution.  Work with the people involved to mitigate any concerns about appropriation or appropriateness.  And as we've seen with Spokane, that can result in a fantastic logo.

 

 

 

But does the Penobscot tribe have any connection to Cleveland or Ohio? They're more or less associated with Maine than anything. The more likely connection would be some more well-known tribes like Iroquois or Chippewa. According to https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/history-of-native-americans/history-of-ohio-indians.htm, the word "Ohio" was derived from the Iroquois for "beautiful river". So the Iroquois would seem to be the likely tribe for a visual theme or imagery.

[Gothamite]

Absolutely. 

 

But given that there are no recognized nations in Ohio, they’re going to be working with a secondary connection anyway, why not reach out to the tribe of the man they supposedly named the club after?  Take the apocryphal myth and give it some modern basis in reality.

 

Or work with a nation that used to live in Ohio.  Or both.  Either way, those are the people who should be part of any rebranding that keeps the name. 

[chakfu]

I only learned of the sale of the Spiders remaining assets to the proto-indians recently. But what does assets mean? Could it be as minor as leftover balls and bats?

[coco1997]

Came across this Indians logo concept on Dribble that I thought was pretty cool:

 

https://dribbble.com/shots/5306050-Cleveland-Indians-logo-redesign

 

 

[MilSox]

I can make completely non-political arguments for why Wahoo should be gone.  I can also make completely non-political arguments for why the Indians should be the Spiders.

[-Akronite-]

On 9/26/2018 at 9:14 AM, coco1997 said:

Came across this Indians logo concept on Dribble that I thought was pretty cool:

 

https://dribbble.com/shots/5306050-Cleveland-Indians-logo-redesign

 

 

 

MODS: I'm unclear as to whether the following commentary is okay.

 

This is one of the best concepts I've seen for the Indians. It's simple, it's balanced it's different, it'd look good on a hat or jersey, and it avoids the more overt issues of Wahoo. Unfortunately, the use of ANY Native imagery is hard for them to defend going forward, even in the cases of feathers, arrows, or this chief w/ a headdress. It looks great but I feel like it conjures up the core issue, that this isn't representative of natives. Obviously among Native tropes we would include headdresses, but headdresses of this sort were never worn by any tribes even close to Cleveland. So as much as I like it aesthetically, I don't see this working. 

 

This also reminds me of a concept @keithisgood posted a while back for improving the block C, as inspired by Wahoo himself, below. It's not perfect but I like the concept.

[Gothamite]

22 minutes ago, -Akronite- said:

Unfortunately, the use of ANY Native imagery is hard for them to defend going forward, even in the cases of feathers, arrows, or this chief w/ a headdress. It looks great but I feel like it conjures up the core issue, that this isn't representative of natives.

 

This is where I personally come down on the issue.

 

Any representation of First Nations culture (to say nothing of the very people themselves) needs to be done in close consultation with them.  Period, end of story.  Doesn't necessarily matter which nation, but they have to be involved. 

 

It can't just be outsiders creating these representations; no matter how "respectful" we think we're being, it's just not our call to make.

 

I like that update, although the horizontal spur is a step too far.  I don't think you need anything more than this:

 

 

But again, that's clearly a feather.  So they'd still need to partner with a First Nation.

[The_Admiral]

No, that's two triangles and a rectangle that vaguely suggest a feather. Who are they supposed to consult with on that, the Tangram reservation?

[-Akronite-]

2 hours ago, the admiral said:

No, that's two triangles and a rectangle that vaguely suggest a feather. Who are they supposed to consult with on that, the Tangram reservation?

 

I assume this isn't a serious suggestion that symbolism shouldn't be weighed when discussing logos.

[MJWalker45]

2 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

This is where I personally come down on the issue.

 

Any representation of First Nations culture (to say nothing of the very people themselves) needs to be done in close consultation with them.  Period, end of story.  Doesn't necessarily matter which nation, but they have to be involved. 

 

It can't just be outsiders creating these representations; no matter how "respectful" we think we're being, it's just not our call to make.

 

I like that update, although the horizontal spur is a step too far.  I don't think you need anything more than this:

 

 

But again, that's clearly a feather.  So they'd still need to partner with a First Nation.

I think adding something to make the feather more visible could work, but I think consultation with Native American tribes that are or were in Ohio is the best way to go.

[The_Admiral]

42 minutes ago, -Akronite- said:

 

I assume this isn't a serious suggestion that symbolism shouldn't be weighed when discussing logos.

No. It was a joke. Tangrams aren't Indians. They should consult with Native groups if they're to use actual imagery, though, the way the Spokane Indians did.

[Derek]

On 9/15/2018 at 11:48 PM, slapshot said:

 

But does the Penobscot tribe have any connection to Cleveland or Ohio? They're more or less associated with Maine than anything. The more likely connection would be some more well-known tribes like Iroquois or Chippewa. According to https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/history-of-native-americans/history-of-ohio-indians.htm, the word "Ohio" was derived from the Iroquois for "beautiful river". So the Iroquois would seem to be the likely tribe for a visual theme or imagery.

 

I see where you’re coming from, but Cleveland is obviously not on the Ohio River, as well as Iroquois were predominately in SW Ohio. Close, but too big of a disconnect. 

[-Akronite-]

6 hours ago, the admiral said:

No. It was a joke. Tangrams aren't Indians. They should consult with Native groups if they're to use actual imagery, though, the way the Spokane Indians did.

 

I got that. It was the "No, that's two triangles and a rectangle that vaguely suggest a feather," I was referring to. Meaning, even if it's not a literal feather, if that's the imagery they are invoking, it's still a point of discussion.