New England Patriots Alternates

[McCall]

It has just come to my attention that certain divisions of the Continental Army DID in fact wear red.  Case in point, the following link, featuring a picture taken by skyaa1, featuring red Revolutionary-era uniforms being worn in DC's 4th of July parade.

Red Continental Army Uniforms

Yup, some of the American soldiers did in fact wear red, mostly because they were uniforms they still had left over from the French & Indian War...

yes, but as was already said, they originally wore those red jackets when fighting in the french and indian war. BUT the american colonies fought as part of the british army during the F&I war.

I'm just gonna say THIS and nothing more. I don't want to start the "American Revolutionary War of Canada and America" like before.

These are Football Uniforms. Red is one of their colors. The war was 230 years ago. Who cares. It's a concept. I love carpet. If the guy wants to do a design like this, it's fine. It's not gonna change history or start another war (except one on this forum ). If anybody does not like it based on the HISTORICAL facts, then just don't look or comment on it. I love desk. This is supposed to be constructive criticism of the APPEARANCE OF THE DESIGN, not whether or not it's historically accurate. Get over it before it begins. Everybody. Even those of us who think there is nothing wrong with the Patriots wearing red jerseys.

That's my piece. Peace.

[themightyspitz]

I found a little something interesting regarding the history of Continental Army Uniforms with respect to the American Revolutionary War.

Uniform History of the United States Continental Line Infantry

American uniforms during the War for Independence covered a great deal of territory in terms of colors and combinations as well as details. As early as 1775 the Continental Congress made an attempt at a degree of uniformity with the choice of brown coats as official with facing colors to vary by regiment. Lacking supplies and cohesion and with many regiments already outfitted as they pleased, this directive never seems to have made much progress. After all, very early in the war the majority of officers had already shown a proclivity toward blue coats, an attraction shared by a large number of the men as well.

In 1779 George Washington stepped in as Commander in Chief and issued orders regarding the regulation of army uniforms.

Regarding infantry, dark blue regimental coats of wool lined with white linen became standard. Buttons would be of pewter. The color of the facings would be determined by region. New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut regiments would have white facings. New York and New Jersey would have buff facings. Regiments from Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Pennsylvania would have red facings. North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia would have blue facings and buttonholes edged with narrow white tape.

The small clothes (drop-front breeches and waistcoats) were of white linen or white wool. Though Washington came to favor the use of ?overalls? (not to be confused with the modern article) and some men had them, it is apparent that most soldiers served in breeches and stockings though some of these had half-gaiters to protect the lower leg. For instance Washington?s Life Guards (who were undoubtedly among the best equipped soldiers in the army) are described near the time of the end of the war as wearing breeches, stockings and half-gaiters ? not overalls.

Most regiments wore hats which were of the military cocked tricorn variety, black with white trim being most common for Continental infantry, along with a black and white ?alliance? cockade.

It is fair to say that not all regiments or all soldiers in all regiments were all outfitted as per official regulations. Some regiments probably never complied and many were likely in partial compliance. However, a good degree of progress seems to have been made.

Several researchers (including Charles Lefferts) have concluded that by far the most popular and representative of all the American uniforms was that which was ?official? to the middle states of Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland and Delaware. This blue coat with red facings seems to have been used far beyond the region and was enjoying popularity even before the official orders of 1779. After all, this color combination had been common among colonial units earlier in the 18th century. During the Revolutionary War the blue coat with red facings made perhaps its first appearance in 1775 with the Wethersfield militia company of Connecticut. They were the only American unit to arrive in uniform for the Battle of Bunker Hill.

The blue coat with white facings of the New England regiments was also common while the ?official? uniforms of the other regions seem to have been less used.

Uniformity was always a goal though even by the end of the war it had yet to be fully realized. Some regiments went through a number of incarnations and uniform changes. Even a unit as famous and well equipped as Washington?s Life Guards seems to have gone through a uniform history that leaves the researcher wondering. Washington?s original commissary request for this unit was blue coats with buff facings (as per his own) and white small clothes. However, the unit seems to have been provided with red rather than white waistcoats. These troops initially were given British style dragoon hats (said to have been captured by a privateer) but later are apparently wearing the cocked hats standard to the army. Late in the war Washington?s Lifeguards are described as wearing blue coats with white facings. Perhaps these were New England men who had not been reissued new uniforms (though this would seem unlikely as the Life Guards was an elite unit and Washington was particular regarding their appearance) or perhaps the uniform of the Life Guards had changed ? as was so common to many regiments throughout the war. As the records of the Life Guards were destroyed in a fire we are left to speculate.

© 2004-2005 We Make History

The facing colors were the colors along the edges of the coat and the sleeves. As you can see from the sections in bold, the uniforms for the New England states were blue coats with white facings. And since the New England Patriots' team mascot is based off of a soldier from the Revolution, it clearly explains the absence of a lot of red in their uniform.

Again, I don't mind the concept. It's carried out well and it's precise; the only thing lacking is accuracy with respect to history. It's like making a sports team based on a WWII Allied soldier and draping him in Axis colors.

[McCall]

Their Football Uniforms.

[themightyspitz]

Their Football Uniforms.

And you don't think that some teams have some history behind their uniforms, regardless of the sport?

[ShaftDu]

what about the Red Soxs?

I could never image them as the Blue Soxs

[shootachtung]

In the historical argument we have here, I agree that the Patriots should not wear a majorly red uniform.

On the concept, I like the white jersey with the red numbers. Like someone mentioned before, it does look like they're wearing suspenders though.

[IceCap]

In the historical argument we have here, I agree that the Patriots should not wear a majorly red uniform.

thank you. thank you. i've said my piece before, i'm going to let others argue it if they want.

I'm just gonna say THIS and nothing more. I don't want to start the "American Revolutionary War of Canada and America" like before.

what does canada have anything to do with it? you always bring canada into this discussion. you did it last time and you did it again. i'll assume the reasoning for this time is the same as the last time:

YOU FROM FRICKIN CANADA! And you're telling US that the AMERICAN Revolution and the Patriots uniforms are directly linked?

If they wanna wear red, they can wear red. It's their right. The right our forefathers fought for in, oh what was it? Oh yeah, THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION!

sheesh.

haha. still as funny as the first day i read it. listen bud, i may be canadian, but i probablly have more knowledge about the american revolution in my pinky then you do in your entire head.

[HatCityEnforcer]

*steps on to soapbox*

OK, I've read the ongoing arguements on the historical merits of the Patriots wearing red and how some people seem to get their undies in a knot when someone chucks up a "throwback" alt for the Pats bringing back the red jerseys they were known for from 1960-1992....

I think what those people are forgetting here is that the old Pats helmet & primary logo, "Patriot Pete", was done up wearing a BLUE coat, which is the historically accurate version. If you need proof, just stroll over to the logo collection Chris has graciously supplied all of us and check out the Patriots section in the NFL area.

Getting the logo historically accurate accounts for a lot more in my book....and I was a fluffing history major in college and I'm HARDLY bent out of shape the Pats went with a red jersey...

IIRC, that first season in the AFL, out of the 8 teams, 4 wore a shade of blue (Houston, NY Titans, LA, Buffalo)...and 3 of those teams were in the SAME division as the Pats were....(FYI, the other 3 teams wore black (Oakland), red (Dallas), and plop brown (Denver).)

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, the Pats didn't want to add to the monocromatic look and decided to go in a different route...

Maybe Billy Sullivan (the founder of the Pats) got a discounted deal on an overstock of red jerseys with blue trim from an athletic supply shop (heck, that's how some colleges got their colors...simple as that or having something happen in the wash...yet nobody has a canary fit over that)...it could have been that simple...

*steps off of soapbox*

[kansascityjayhawk4]

I love the first, but not thye second... The only problem i see is the silver stripes... I'd rather see blue, but then again, it would look like Houston's alt. Case in close, I think it's a great idea, but will just never really work.

KC Jayhawk

[McCall]

In the historical argument we have here, I agree that the Patriots should not wear a majorly red uniform.

thank you. thank you. i've said my piece before, i'm going to let others argue it if they want.

I'm just gonna say THIS and nothing more. I don't want to start the "American Revolutionary War of Canada and America" like before.

what does canada have anything to do with it? you always bring canada into this discussion. you did it last time and you did it again. i'll assume the reasoning for this time is the same as the last time:

YOU FROM FRICKIN CANADA! And you're telling US that the AMERICAN Revolution and the Patriots uniforms are directly linked?

If they wanna wear red, they can wear red. It's their right. The right our forefathers fought for in, oh what was it? Oh yeah, THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION!

sheesh.

haha. still as funny as the first day i read it. listen bud, i may be canadian, but i probablly have more knowledge about the american revolution in my pinky then you do in your entire head.

What I meant by Canada here is that all of us in the first argument were either from U.S. or Canada. I was actually trying to pull an "Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim" thing there, but I failed miserably. Sorry.

As far as me not knowing history, :censored: off. I would've been a history major had I not chosen Graphic Design. History, along with P.E. and Art, were the only subjects in school that I reguarly got A's in. So don't :censored:ing tell me that I know nothing about the history of my country. And I was just gonna try and be a bit peaceful this time around, but since you want to start this :censored: up again, well then :censored: it:

If anybody as any right to continue this argument, you don't. Nothing against Canadians in ABSOLUTELY ANYWAY, but this is an American History topic, or I guess even British (although I doubt they really give a rats ass). I find it funny that the person with the strongest argument against this isn't even from one of the countries involved in the War of discussion.

I say once again (and my final post on this thread):

THEY'RE FOOTBALL JERSEYS!! NOT EVEN REAL ONES!! THEY'RE A CONCEPT BY AN ARTIST!! PRAISE OR CRITICIZE THE VISUAL EFFECT (NOT HISTORICAL) OF HIS DESIGN!! YOU HAVE TAKEN THE FOCUS FROM HIS WORK!! GET THE :censored: OVER IT!!

BTW, I've forgotten the artist by now, but I think they were pretty solid. Hate the Pats, so I don't care what they wear, but I applaud your work and keep up the great work. Peace.

[themightyspitz]

I appologize for this in advance...old debating habbit to leave no argument without a counter. Here goes:

What I meant by Canada here is that all of us in the first argument were either from U.S. or Canada. I was actually trying to pull an "Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim" thing there, but I failed miserably. Sorry.

There is an option that exists which allows you to edit posts after you make them; I've used it several times myself. However, with respect to your arguement, it wasn't the brightest idea to bring Canada into this arguement knowing full well that the response wouldn't have been positive. Since nobody mentioned Canada prior to your post, it does make it seem like you were really trying to pick a fight again.

As far as me not knowing history, :censored: off. I would've been a history major had I not chosen Graphic Design. History, along with P.E. and Art, were the only subjects in school that I reguarly got A's in. So don't :censored:ing tell me that I know nothing about the history of my country. And I was just gonna try and be a bit peaceful this time around, but since you want to start this :censored: up again, well then :censored: it:

That's very civil and mature to use in an arguement [sarcasm]. Regardless, if anyone was commenting directly on your knowledge of history or not, it doesn't give you a liscense to use such language or to imply such said languange. Use of that language in any arguement only weakens your position and you as a debater; I highly recommend refraining from any of that for any debate, regardless of content. With regards to history, I commend you on your achievements, although it would have been helpful to eploy a bit of what you learned with respect to the uniforms of the Revolutionary War, a bit less personal emotion, and a bit less jingoism (definition of jingoism) in your position. And for your own information, nobody wanted to start this up again; it was actually you who involuntarily decided to start up the arguement with Icecap79 by citing Canada in your one quote.

If anybody as any right to continue this argument, you don't.

Doesn't leave much room for debate buffs like me, does it? Again, I appologize...it's an old habbit I have for not leaving any opposing arguement unchallenged unless I really have nothing left.

Nothing against Canadians in ABSOLUTELY ANYWAY, but this is an American History topic, or I guess even British (although I doubt they really give a rats ass). I find it funny that the person with the strongest argument against this isn't even from one of the countries involved in the War of discussion.

No offense, but I find it funny that someone from this country is getting more worked up about it than someone who isn't. And from the looks of your last sentence in this quote, you apperantly hold quite a considerable grudge against our neighbor to the north...unless, of course, it was an unintentional poke like you earlier Canadian comment. In fact, I highly suggest you edit that comment lest this topic starts becoming jingoist.

I say once again (and my final post on this thread):

THEY'RE FOOTBALL JERSEYS!! NOT EVEN REAL ONES!! THEY'RE A CONCEPT BY AN ARTIST!! PRAISE OR CRITICIZE THE VISUAL EFFECT (NOT HISTORICAL) OF HIS DESIGN!! YOU HAVE TAKEN THE FOCUS FROM HIS WORK!! GET THE :censored: OVER IT!!

Ahh, a shame that you won't be rebuting my arguement. And again, not the right kind of language to use for a debate. However, disregarding the language and various remarks about denizens in our neighbor to the north, you have missed a significant point when it comes to our individual critiques of this concept. Allow me to cite one of your earlier comments:

This is supposed to be constructive criticism of the APPEARANCE OF THE DESIGN, not whether or not it's historically accurate.

You forget that historical factors when it comes to design are quite important, especially when a specific team's mascot is a reflection of their history. And given that just about everything in the New England Patriots' franchise is a reflection of that history, it would be irresponsible not to take the historical factors into consideration when concerning uniform design. I have already cited the material for which I base my arguement against a red Patriots jersey, so I won't repeat it here. I have also stated my opinions on the concept prior to this, so I won't repeat it here either.

If you really want to hear me say it in your term, I like how the design was executed, but I don't like the employment of all the red in the design. And for that opinion, I have my arguements.

[Titanium Eagle]

NOBODY CARES IF THE BRITISH WORE IT OR NOT.

Jesus christ...

JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURE AND SAY IF IT LOOKS GOOD OR NOT.

I'm tired of the same freaking argument every time somebody has this concept.

[redsfan39]

The war was 230 years ago. Who cares.

i care very much about the revolutinary war. it is one of the if not the most significant thing in America's history

[lucky]

NOBODY CARES IF THE BRITISH WORE IT OR NOT.

Jesus christ...

JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURE AND SAY IF IT LOOKS GOOD OR NOT.

I'm tired of the same freaking argument every time somebody has this concept.

Careful guys. Icecap is apt to PM everyone and give us all the business.

Hey, anyone seen any ROYAL BLUE leaves falling off maple trees lately?

[patsox]

DAMN! Why wear red when the blue silver combo is so awesome??? They sucked in red, red uniforms are a thing of the Past for the Pats and that's all there is to it.

[VitaminD]

Hey hey hey! HEY!

I've got an idea. Dump red AND blue. Modern soldiers wear olive green. Steal the Padres' camo specials, slap some numbers on the front, call it a day.

We Americans will raise a bottle of Molson Ex, and our good neighbors (what the hell... neighbours) can reply with a bottle of Bud. PROBLEM SOLVED!

( ... I'm really staying out of this, I have heard this debate ten too many times. I'd post an olive green Pats jersey just to piss the masses off, I just don't have the time.)

[redsfan39]

Hey hey hey!  HEY!

I've got an idea.  Dump red AND blue.  Modern soldiers wear olive green.  Steal the Padres' camo specials, slap some numbers on the front, call it a day.

We Americans will raise a bottle of Molson Ex, and our good neighbors (what the hell... neighbours) can reply with a bottle of Bud.  PROBLEM SOLVED!

( ... I'm really staying out of this, I have heard this debate ten too many times.  I'd post an olive green Pats jersey just to piss the masses off, I just don't have the time.)

you dont but i do. making it now

edit: turns out i don't. go figure

[IceCap]

NOBODY CARES IF THE BRITISH WORE IT OR NOT.

Jesus christ...

JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURE AND SAY IF IT LOOKS GOOD OR NOT.

I'm tired of the same freaking argument every time somebody has this concept.

Careful guys. Icecap is apt to PM everyone and give us all the business.

Hey, anyone seen any ROYAL BLUE leaves falling off maple trees lately?

actaully i have a good freind in bulgary who tells me that it can get so cold that leavs do turn a shade of blue. besides, the leafs have a readon for the blue and white: canada's white snow and blue sky. very simple. there are only two reasons for the pats to wear a prodominently blue jersey:

1) to be historically innacurate. all of the pats symbolism shows that the team is named after the american soliders of the us war of independence. both the logos the team has used reflect the revalutionary american solider. also, the team's mascot reflects this identity. these american soliders (who's identity is reflected in the pats symbolism) wore blue while their DIRECT ENEMIES the british wore red. does the nickname "red coats" ring any bells? hell if the pats are going to wear red, might as well have the blue jackets (named after the blue worn by the union during the american civil war) wear grey, the colour of the confederate uniforms.

2) to conjure up memories of 30+ years of new england patriots failure. the made it to one superbowl in red. ONE! and guess what? they got killed. chicago looked like they were playing a practice squad during that game. since switching to blue they have made it to four superbowls and have won three. and they had a decent showing in the one they lost. all arguments about the american revolution and red coats aside, red represents the worst years of pats history, with blue (especially navy) representing dynasty.

[RyanB06]

2) to conjure up memories of 30+ years of new england patriots failure. the made it to one superbowl in red. ONE! and guess what? they got killed. chicago looked like they were playing a practice squad during that game. since switching to blue they have made it to four superbowls and have won three. and they had a decent showing in the one they lost. all arguments about the american revolution and red coats aside, red represents the worst years of pats history, with blue (especially navy) representing dynasty.

[begin rant]

Just so happened that the '85 Bears, were, oh, I don't know...

THE BEST TEAM OF ALL-TIME, MAYBE?!?

To say the Patriots shouldn't wear red uniforms because of this ONE GAME is ridiculous.

Just like the rest of this inane discussion.

You know why the New England Patriots should have a red alt?

IT LOOKS DAMN GOOD, THAT'S WHY. The Patriots sell tons of the throwback red jerseys. Tons. I have two myself.

Fluff historical accuracy. The Pats need to come up with a red alt and ditch the horrid silver one. NOW.

[end rant]

[IceCap]

2) to conjure up memories of 30+ years of new england patriots failure. the made it to one superbowl in red. ONE! and guess what? they got killed. chicago looked like they were playing a practice squad during that game. since switching to blue they have made it to four superbowls and have won three. and they had a decent showing in the one they lost. all arguments about the american revolution and red coats aside, red represents the worst years of pats history, with blue (especially navy) representing dynasty.

[begin rant]

Just so happened that the '85 Bears, were, oh, I don't know...

THE BEST TEAM OF ALL-TIME, MAYBE?!?

To say the Patriots shouldn't wear red uniforms because of this ONE GAME is ridiculous.

Just like the rest of this inane discussion.

You know why the New England Patriots should have a red alt?

IT LOOKS DAMN GOOD, THAT'S WHY. The Patriots sell tons of the throwback red jerseys. Tons. I have two myself.

Fluff historical accuracy. The Pats need to come up with a red alt and ditch the horrid silver one. NOW.

[end rant]

how many superbowls did the pats win wearing red for 30+ years? it's not just because of one game, it's because of 30+ years of football mediocrity in red as compared to dynasty in navy. the fact that the 1985 patriots were the best red-wearing pats team is sad. they just didn't get killed, they got taken out back and slaughtered.

oh, and i think the joe montana era 49ers and their 4 superbowls or the undefeated 1972 dolphins have something to say about the 1985 bears being the best of all time.