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Over rated!


NJTank

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Heres a new thread where we can discuss overtime the most over rated players in sports.

Today I place Pedro Martinez into the listed of the most over rated athleets.

I find it laughable when any one call Pedro Martinez an all tme great.

Is he a dominating pitcher? Yes

Is he a possible Hall of Famer? Maybe

Is he one of the best of all time? Absolutley NOT!

All the time it seems as ESPN and other baseball analyst compare Pedro to all time greats like Sandy Koufax.

They even call him the best Right handed pitcher of his era along with Roger Clemens, I guess they must think Greg Maddux is a Lefty.

The bottom line is this all time great picthers win games like last night and Pedro didn't. In fact Pedro hardly ever beats the Yankees all time great picthers beat thier biggest rival. In fact Pedro hardly ever wins any big game with the exception of Game 5 of the ALDS in 1999 and this year can you name any other time Pedro came through in the clutch. He certainley didn't come through in Game 3 when he had a meltdown.

Maybe one day Pedro could complete the resume and become an all time great, but until he get the Red Sox into the World Series or dominates in the post season then he can't be considered an all time great. Maybe its not fair but thats the way it is the great ones come through when it matters most and Pedro has failed time and time again.

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i'll chime in here..... i have a few to list.

ERIC LINDROS! (need i say more?)

Junior Seau: i always thought he was overrated. He's ok but he isn't the player all the commentators make him out to be.

Kurt Warner: i hate to say that cause i like the guy. He was in the right place at the right time.

Derek Jeter: I hate the Yanks, but Jeter is ok. He's not all what he's hyped to be. Very good player, just not a superstar. Put him on a small market ballclub and nobody cares.

The Sport of Soccer........

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Lindros is not just overrated but he down right sucks!

Seau is a little over the hill now but he was in the 90s the best LB in football.

Warner had a great 3 year run, but there was a reason he was in the Arena League in the first place,weather it be hand injuries or something else he has not been the same the last 2 years, weather he will ever be able to rebound remains to be seen.

Jeter to call him over rated means you dont understadn why he is so good. He is a team leader on the best team in baseball year in year out. He may not hav ethe spectaulr power numbers, but allbig rallies the Yankees have he seems toi be a part of since 1996. Last night was a prime example, as he started the rally in 8th Inning.

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Another point on Pedro's numbers is the fact that In coufax's time having someon hit seventy-something homeruns was unheard of.  The offenses today are far better than they were in Koufax time.

Game 7, who do you want?  Pedro.  7 masterful innings.  To ask anymore of a pitcher who is heading damn near 130 pitches is ridiculous.

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Tank... as it seems your post was spurred-on by Pedro's performance last night, I have just one thing to say to you:

"What are you smoking?"

The Red Sox loss last night was not an indication that Pedro is incapable of "winning the big game". Nor is it an indication that the Red Sox are under the control of some :censored:-and-bull "Curse of the Bambino". It IS proof that the Boston Red Sox HAVE suffered under a long line of mangers (Darrel Johnson, John McNamara and now Grady Little) who were incapable of removing their heads from their anal orifices long enough to make the types of managerial decisions necessary to win the penultimate contest in a crucial 7-game series.

Pedro was masterful for 7 strong innings last night. His performance certainly overshadowed that of Roger Clemens. He was mixing his pitches well, keeping batters off balance, striking out 9... and most importantly, putting the Red Sox exactly where they needed to be: leading the ballgame going into the 8th. I question why it was even necessary to allow him to pitch in the 8th inning, when the Red Sox bullpen in the persons of Embree, Timlin, Arroyo and Williamson had pitched very well in this series.

Bottom line: any other big-league manager would have lifted his starter at that point and gone to his bullpen to close out the post-season victory. They wouldn't have sauntered out to the mound and asked in their "folksy", "country bumpkin" way whether Pedro wanted to continue. They would have thanked Pedro for a terrific outing and TOLD HIM that it was now in the hands of the BULLPEN. Had Grady Little possessed the rudimentary ability to do that, then I feel that it's safe to say that the Sox bullpen would have either closed out a victory last night, or (granting that the Yankees may have simply had the rally in them) the BULLPEN would have been responsible for the loss. Either way, today you wouldn't have had the audacity to use Pedro's performance last night as fodder for your specious claims that he has never produced in the clutch. You'd either have to concede that he'd won the "Big Game" or that his bullpen had failed him. Instead, the third option cropped up: Pedro was failed by his manager's inability to do the job he was hired for... making an in-game decision. Period. To argue otherwise is to wear your New York Mets/New York Yankees heart on your sleeve*.

Pedro's numbers are what they are. Even you admit that he's a dominating pitcher. And his numbers will put him in Cooperstown. You MENTION the comparison to Koufax, but then you let it go withoput commenting on it. Might that be because the numbers shown last night are so comparable?

The fact of the matter is that the expansion of baseball has cut BOTH ways. Pitchers in Koufax' era faced deeper opposing lineups, but their own lineups were also commensurately deeper. Thus, their own lineups provided them with far more offensive and defensive support than anything Pedro has enjoyed in either Montreal or Boston.

Bottom line: during Pedro's career with Boston, the Red Sox' trips to the post-season don't even happen without his presence in the rotation. As for last night, Pedro - and Sox fans everywhere - were FAILED by one of the most egregious managerial blunders in post-season history. Any "all time great pitchers" would have been victimized by an error of that sort.

PERIOD.

P.S. *By the way... pick a team to root for in MLB. This whole "I'm a Mets fan in the National League AND a Yankees fan in the American League" act is pathetic. Why not pick a team in every division? It would certainly help your chances.

:D

Someone's a LITTLE upset about last night... hehehehehehehe (god i take such great joy from Sox suffering.. god i hate them...)

Pedro is to blame, Grady was stupid for letting Pedro talk him into keeping him on the mound, but ultimatly it is Pedro's fault. Grady got your sorry asses to game 7 of the ALCS and 5 outs from the World Series... it's amazing... in Wrigleyville, dusty did the same thing and he is STILL reveared as some kind of god. Little does it, and you want to run him out of town... The reason the Sox will never win is because they build their team for Fenway, and they have no stability at the managerial position.

Oh, and because they have to play the Yankees...

:P

Have a good winter there, Sox......

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overrated: Eric freaking Lindros. i've said all i can say about this idiot for a lifetime. nuf said.

also overrated: THE Ohio State College

it's pretty clear that OSC can't do much of anything on offense and one of their LBs feels the need to twist other players' legs or choke guys who been tackled already. also clear why i haven't referred to the school yet as OSU. the guys on espn are saying the UW game was a wakeup call. if OSC can stop choking/twisting limbs/other illegal stuff, it might be. considering they struggled with almighty san diego state, i don't think so.

last of the overrateds: Ron Artest wanting #91.  asking for #95 woulda been a better idea :D

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A strong mind gets high off success, a weak mind gets high off bull🤬

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Hey, JQK... my response has nothing to do with being upset over last night (Though I'm obviously disapointed we lost... duh.) and everything to do with Tank's (and apparently yours, as well) ridiculous assertions.

It's assenine for you to claim that Grady Little isn't ultimately responsible for last night's loss. You give his moves credit for getting the Red Sox to game 7, but you're not going to hold him responsible for failing to lift an obviously tiring pitcher in the penultimate game of the ALCS? The bottom line is that ANY big-league skipper worth his salt doesn't ASK if the pitcher wants to come out in that situation... doesn't SUGGEST that the pitcher come out in that situation... he signals to the bullpen, thanks the starter for pitching 7 terrific innings and SENDS HIM TO THE DUGOUT. It's part of your responsibility as the MANAGER... making the tough decisions in the face of opposition from your players. I mean, come on... what did Grady think Pedro's response to the "request" to come out of the game was going to be? If "Grady was stupid for letting Pedro talk him into keeping him on the mound", then Grady is ultimately responsible. Or did he - and, apparently you as well - think that Pedro would come out of the conference on the mound "magically refreshed"? There is never a guarantee that a starting MLB pitcher is going to go "the distance" in a game... particularly in the modern era of the sport. Part and parcel of a starting pitcher's success, along with his own abilities on the mound, are the offensive and defensive support his teammates give him AND the manager's ability to handle him. The Red Sox put runs on the board last night... they played defense. Grady's brain-fart was the key ingredient in Pedro's supposed "failure" last night. You can't have it both ways my friend.

You slay me... you really do. The fact of the matter is that as a Yankees fan you're all puffed up with pride right now. Fair enough... you won the ALCS and are advancing to the World Series. You should be proud. But that's not enough. You've got to crow about how miserable Pedro is. Here's the bottom line: Pedro COULDN'T have won with you guys EITHER way. If he'd stepped off the mound with the lead, allowing Grady to bring in a reliever, you'd all be vilifying him as a pu$$y who didn't have the guts and/or stuff to pitch the complete-game victory. However, as it is, you trash him for staying in the game when he was tiring. Or is it just a given that you believe all Red Sox starting pitchers should go 9 complete innings? I specify Red Sox pitchers, because I haven't seen any Yankees fans bitching about their starters failing to go 9 complete in the playoffs. Once again, you can't have it both ways, my friend. Make up your mind.

As a guy who has spent the better portion of my career as a sports journalist and broadcaster, I'll tell you what "upsets" me: insufferable fans who don't have a clue what they're talking about. So, I'm sure that you can see why I'm doubly upset with this thread. Seriously, I don't begrudge you being happy about the Yankees win, but don't get so caught up in the moment that you fall prey to making the sort of inane pronouncements that are best left to the "get-a-lifers".

And some Yankees fans wonder why they're often viewed as being insufferable. It's because behavior like this can lead people to believe that you don't have the ability to win with either class or dignity. Try behaving with half the decorum that the classiest Yankee players have displayed over the years. Believe me, I've met and interviewed a few in my time... and you're doing NOTHING that would have made any of them proud to recognize you as one of their fans.

Brian in Boston

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Im not Pedro sucks Im saying is overr rated. He still has more to do to become a Hall of Famer.

If his carer ended today now way he should get in the Hall.

What I dont like is them calling him one of the best pitchers of all time, or the best pitcher of his generation.

Sure maybe he was good for 7 inning yesterday, but he did not get the job done, and yeah Grady Little is to blame Little shoudl have seen he was tried liek everyone else watching saw.

But that is not the point. If Pedro wants to be among the grestet of all time he needs to some day come trough in the clutch, and he must stop getting betaen by the Yankees.

The Yankees don't far Pedro, and if he was The greatest like everyone says there would be a fear factor.

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Tank, you're letting your New York-bias show... and it's ridiculous.

Pedro wasn't "maybe good for 7 inning" on Thursday. He WAS good for 7 OUTSTANDING innings. Against one of MLB's best line-ups, he had staked his team to a 4-2 lead... the only hint of offense being the pair of Giambi home-runs. At that point, he had struck out 8 batters.

Was he tiring? Well, you yourself state that "everyone else watching" besides Grady Little "saw" that Pedro was tiring. So, Little should have taken him out of the game, brought in help from a bullpen that had been outstanding during the ALCS, and - as I've outlined - one of two results occurs:

A) The bullpen closes out the victory, in which case Pedro has the victory that proves he came "through in the clutch", or...

B) The bullpen blows the save, in which case the relievers let down Pedro.

Of course, that presupposes that a pseudo-Yankees fan like yourself (Again Tank... make up your mind and pick a team. This Mets/Yankees straddling is SO elementary school.) would EVER be able to admit that Pedro had accomplished the feat of "coming through" in the clutch. As I said in my last post, had Pedro come out of the game in the 7th, you'd be villifying him as a pu$$y who didn't have the guts or stuff to turn in the complete game victory. Bottom line: he can't win with you.

As for the Yankees "fearing" Pedro, I don't know if you were watching the same game I was Thursday night. The guys I saw in the dugout through 7 innings didn't appear to be "enjoying" the prospect of stepping up to the plate and having their @$$eS set down by Pedro. They weren't exactly jumping up and down for a chance to go out and hit against a guy who was deftly handling their line-up.

Frankly, the whole notion of the best MLB hitters "fearing" outstanding MLB pitchers is a crock. As a sports journalist and broadcaster, I can tell you that any MLB hitter who claims that he "fears" an opposing pitcher is either giving the reporter the sound-bite that he thinks the journalist wants to hear, or he's soft. These guys don't "fear" pitchers... they couldn't hold on to a slot in the big leagues if they allowed themselves to think that way. Similarly, no self-respecting SUCCESSFUL MLB pitcher can afford to truly "fear" an opposing hitter. Your question should have been does the Yankees line-up RESPECT Pedro's stuff on the mound? Well, let me tell you... they did for the 7 strong innings he had them stymied Thursday night. In fact, the only time prior to pulling out the win that the Joe Torre and the Yankees "celebrated" on Thursday, was when they realized that Grady had pulled the "brain-fart" and left Pedro in too long. Even then, they weren't exactly sprinting out to the plate.

As for whether you think that he should get into the Hall of Fame... well, I hate to break it to you, but you don't have a vote. I know plenty of people who do... from markets all over the country - not just Boston. I can tell you categorically that his numbers have convinced countless journalists with HOF voting privileges that he belongs in Cooperstown. If he retired today, he might not get in on the first ballot, but I can tell you - based on conversations with my colleagues - that he'd get in on these numbers... whether you and the Tri-State area like it or not.

And that, my friend, is really what this all boils down to. YOU don't think that he belongs in the Hall of Fame. YOU don't like his being referred to as the best pitcher of his generation. YOU don't like him being recognized as one of the best pitchers of all time. And YOU have come to these conclusions from an inherently biased position as a New York "Menkees" fan. It kills you that Pedro, even without the World Series titles and so-called "clutch" wins over your favorite "team-of-the-moment" (Hmmm... let me see... which New York club has the best chance of post-season success this year? Ah, what the hell... I'll root for both.), has captured the attention of the national sports media. It galls you to think that he's mentioned by the media in the same breath as Roger Clemens... and more often then the Yankees' other gifted pitchers like Pettite and Mussina.

So answer me this: In all honesty, the only thing that would have convinced you of Pedro's "greatness" Thursday night would have been a complete-game shutout victory, right? Pedro isn't allowed to get tired and leave a game in the 7th with the lead, right? Pedro isn't allowed to give up a couple of runs over 7, right? Grady Little had no responsibility to manage intelligently, right?

Again I say, what an unadulterated, biased crock of crap.

Brian in Boston

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Tank, you're letting your New York-bias show... and it's ridiculous.

Pedro wasn't "maybe good for 7 inning" on Thursday. He WAS good for 7 OUTSTANDING innings. Against one of MLB's best line-ups, he had staked his team to a 4-2 lead... the only hint of offense being the pair of Giambi home-runs. At that point, he had struck out 8 batters.

Was he tiring? Well, you yourself state that "everyone else watching" besides Grady Little "saw" that Pedro was tiring. So, Little should have taken him out of the game, brought in help from a bullpen that had been outstanding during the ALCS, and - as I've outlined - one of two results occurs:

A) The bullpen closes out the victory, in which case Pedro has the victory that proves he came "through in the clutch", or...

B) The bullpen blows the save, in which case the relievers let down Pedro.

Of course, that presupposes that a pseudo-Yankees fan like yourself (Again Tank... make up your mind and pick a team. This Mets/Yankees straddling is SO elementary school.) would EVER be able to admit that Pedro had accomplished the feat of "coming through" in the clutch. As I said in my last post, had Pedro come out of the game in the 7th, you'd be villifying him as a pu$$y who didn't have the guts or stuff to turn in the complete game victory. Bottom line: he can't win with you.

As for the Yankees "fearing" Pedro, I don't know if you were watching the same game I was Thursday night. The guys I saw in the dugout through 7 innings didn't appear to be "enjoying" the prospect of stepping up to the plate and having their @$$eS set down by Pedro. They weren't exactly jumping up and down for a chance to go out and hit against a guy who was deftly handling their line-up.

Frankly, the whole notion of the best MLB hitters "fearing" outstanding MLB pitchers is a crock. As a sports journalist and broadcaster, I can tell you that any MLB hitter who claims that he "fears" an opposing pitcher is either giving the reporter the sound-bite that he thinks the journalist wants to hear, or he's soft. These guys don't "fear" pitchers... they couldn't hold on to a slot in the big leagues if they allowed themselves to think that way. Similarly, no self-respecting SUCCESSFUL MLB pitcher can afford to truly "fear" an opposing hitter. Your question should have been does the Yankees line-up RESPECT Pedro's stuff on the mound? Well, let me tell you... they did for the 7 strong innings he had them stymied Thursday night. In fact, the only time prior to pulling out the win that the Joe Torre and the Yankees "celebrated" on Thursday, was when they realized that Grady had pulled the "brain-fart" and left Pedro in too long. Even then, they weren't exactly sprinting out to the plate.

As for whether you think that he should get into the Hall of Fame... well, I hate to break it to you, but you don't have a vote. I know plenty of people who do... from markets all over the country - not just Boston. I can tell you categorically that his numbers have convinced countless journalists with HOF voting privileges that he belongs in Cooperstown. If he retired today, he might not get in on the first ballot, but I can tell you - based on conversations with my colleagues - that he'd get in on these numbers... whether you and the Tri-State area like it or not.

And that, my friend, is really what this all boils down to. YOU don't think that he belongs in the Hall of Fame. YOU don't like his being referred to as the best pitcher of his generation. YOU don't like him being recognized as one of the best pitchers of all time. And YOU have come to these conclusions from an inherently biased position as a New York "Menkees" fan. It kills you that Pedro, even without the World Series titles and so-called "clutch" wins over your favorite "team-of-the-moment" (Hmmm... let me see... which New York club has the best chance of post-season success this year? Ah, what the hell... I'll root for both.), has captured the attention of the national sports media. It galls you to think that he's mentioned by the media in the same breath as Roger Clemens... and more often then the Yankees' other gifted pitchers like Pettite and Mussina.

So answer me this: In all honesty, the only thing that would have convinced you of Pedro's "greatness" Thursday night would have been a complete-game shutout victory, right? Pedro isn't allowed to get tired and leave a game in the 7th with the lead, right? Pedro isn't allowed to give up a couple of runs over 7, right? Grady Little had no responsibility to manage intelligently, right?

Again I say, what an unadulterated, biased crock of crap.

Brian in Boston

You are one angry, biased, pissed off red sox fan, aren't you?

Your team lost... again.

The Yankees won... again

Deal with it. Buy a beer, and watch the Pats.....

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I was shocked to even see Pedro in 8th inning. It seemed to me he was tiring in the 7th. The 8th inning gets all the press because of the comeback, but I think the 7th was the key inning. Giambi had his second home run to cut the lead in half. Then they had a little rally and had the tying run on second. Boston had the bullpen up, and was ready take out Pedro. Pedro got out of the inning, then the pitchers in the bullpen sat down. Before the Ortiz home-run.

Even with the Ortiz home-run I would have taken Pedro out after 7 if I was the Boston manager. He was clearly tiring, and the Yankees were getting momentum. Though I think even if a reliever comes in the Yankees still might have won the game.

They had momentum, anything could have happened. And plus this is how the Yankees have won before against Pedro.

This was a typical Yankee win against Pedro. he's dominating early, but the Yankees work him, and come back late against Pedro or the bullpen.

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1918 19181918 1918 19181918

1918 19 18 1918 19 18

1918 19 18 1918 19 18

1918 19181918 1918 19181918

1918 19 1918 19 18

1918 18 1918 19 18

1918 19181918 1918  19181918

Need I say More May the curse live forever more

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Red Sox fans need to learn they dont have the greatest team on the face of the earth, and losing the way they did is good, since it humbles them once again. :;):

Pedro is a good pitcher but he need to do more to be called great in my opinon.

I would not put Pedro in the top 5 of stating pitchers in the last 10 years.

1. Roger Clemens

2. Randy Johnson

3. Greg Maddux

4. Tom Glavine

5. Curt Schilling

Btw Brian you and other Boston fans liek you are teh reason I hope the Red Sox never win again. I loved every moent of taht HBO specially I recorded. I even watched it again last night and laughed again. I enjoy the Sox pain in fact I dont care if the Marlisn win the World Series to me the Ynakees did the job stomping the Sox again. Heres to Babe Ruth and his wonderful Curse.

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Yankees fans reactions to the Red Sox losing is similar to watching Arnold Schwarzenegger routinely beating the piss out of a mentally and physically handicapped person every October.

--Roger "Time?" Clemente.

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Roger Clemente ||| "Yankees fans reactions to the Red Sox losing is similar to watching Arnold Schwarzenegger routinely beating the piss out of a mentally and physically handicapped person every October.

--Roger "Time?" Clemente."

Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Very Nice Rog! :laugh:

Bitcher in Boston ||| "JQK... Exactly what I expect from your type of arrogant,misinformed fan: An inability to address the issues with anything approaching an inkling of intelligence. Sad."

Brian, you can say anything you want, you may take it as arrogant, but you Boston fans are more self-centered and arrogant than ANY fans in ANY sport! And what's more, is that you have NO REASON to be so! So you want to call me and other Yankee fans names and bitch and moan like your doing right now, throwing your temper tantrum, but you, my friend, are just the perfect cross-section of Red Sox Nation... a whiner who loves to hearthe sound of his own voice as he whines.

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Hey, JQK...

Do you even bother to read the content of the posts out here? I'm not in the mood to bitch and moan. Far from it. I've done everything in my power in TWO threads to INTELLIGENTLY DEBATE the issue of...

A) Whether Pedro Martinez can be considered one of the modern era's great pitchers?

B) What his performance in Game 7 of the ALCS says about his legacy?

I've called on both you and Tank to back up your arguments against the quality of Pedro's performance on Thursday night AND against Grady Little's responsibility for the Red Sox loss. I've done so in a logical manner. What I find frustrating is your apparent inability and/or unwillingness to want to engage in such an intelligent debate. I've asked you both to respond to specific points in an argument. You've chosen not to directly respond to those points. So be it.

As for my supposed "whining" over Thursday night's loss, I challenge you to point out even one example of my claiming that the Red Sox deserved to win... that we were cheated out of the win... that we were the victims of a curse. Further, show me where I've said that the Yankees didn't deserve to win. Bottom line: you CAN'T, because examples don't exist. It was a phenomenally well-played series (as was the entire regular season series), between two well-matched teams. Joe Torre and the Yankees did an outstanding job of taking advantage of a managerial gaffe on the part of Grady Little. I've never claimed otherwise. And while I've said that the argument can be made that the Red Sox bullpen would have preserved the win for Pedro had either Embree or Timlin come on to START the 8th inning, I've also gone to great pains to say that the Yankees may have had the rally in them no matter what. I'll ask you point blank: How do you define that as whining? How do you define that as self-centered or arrogant? Again, I challenge you to point out one example of my whining over the Red Sox loss. In point of fact, I haven't really delved into the loss. My debate with Tank (and then you) has been over the merits of Pedro's performance/Grady Little's managerial decision in the 8th/ the overall assessment of Pedro's career.

Listen, JQK: As a Yankees fan, you're on top of the world right now. Nobody is trying to begrudge you that. But you'd think that as a Yankees fan, with the 26 World Series titles that the club has earned, you'd have come to a point where you'd celebrate their successes with a little more dignity and comportment. That's all I'm saying. Hey, I recognize that part of the fun of being invested in a team is working-up a great rivalry with fans of opposing clubs. I'm just wondering why you seem incapable of doing so with any decorum whatsoever?

It just seems to me that you're quick to point out how insufferably self-centered, arrogant and whiny all Red Sox fans are (apparently, me in particular), without offering up any hard-and-fast evidence of such behavior. I mean, you go so far as to say:

"Brian, you can say anything you want, you may take it as arrogant, but you Boston fans are more self-centered and arrogant than ANY fans in ANY sport!"

I point to the "Brian, you can say anything you want" specifically. In other words, no matter how logical and open-minded my points, you've decided not to give them any credit because I'm a Red Sox fan.

Hey, do me a favor: Don't compare me to any other Red Sox fans you've ever met... bad, good or indifferent. I'll promise not to compare you to any other Yankees fans I've met. We'll reserve the right to judge each other based on our individual behavior here in the forums.

Oh, speaking of our rivalry... I just love your comment in the "Hey Red Sox fans..." thread about not caring whether the Yankees win the World Series now. That's a convenient attitude: it supports your assertion that we're your most hated rivals... while also (and, more importantly) giving you a built-in EXCUSE should the Yankees lose to the Marlins. Talk about hedging your bets. And the time/date stamp shows that it was posted AFTER the Yankees lost Game 1 of the series. What a coincidence, huh? Sheesh.

Brian in Boston

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Now it's my turn to vent.  I may not be as eloquent as sir Brian, but here goes nothin'.

1.  There is no curse,  this is a series of bad things and stupid decisions that got us to where we are today.  This whole curse thing is bullplop.

2.  To say that Pedro isn't in your top 5 from the last ten years is ridiculous!  Could it be the fact that Steinbrenner couldn't him and the Sox have him have any effect on your list

?  Fact is, no one has been more dominant in recent memory than Pedro.  Your Yankees bias wouldn't have anything to do with that, would it?

3.  To say that we are competing in payroll is ridiculous.  The Yankeed payroll is almost double the Sox.  You yankee fans always find ways around this, but fact is if the league had a cap or had similar payrolls, the Yankeed would not be as competitive as they are today.

4. I don't think any Yankee fan would ever be able to handle the sox beating the yankees.  I am 100% positive that we would have conduncted ourselves better had we won.  So don't use that as an excuse.

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Hey Shiznit

Pedro is a Free Agnent after next season, don t be surprised if he is wearing Pinstripes in 2005 :;):

I say he is not in the top 5 because I dont think he is in the top 5. Maybe u can ague he is better then Glavine and Schilling over teh past decade, but he is not better then Clemens, Johnson and Maddux.

Im just sick of hearing how great he is, and I just dont think he is as great as he is made out to be. One of these days he is going to have top proover himself in a big spot.

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