ESPN "30 FOR 30" Series

[BaltimoreFan]

It just seems odd that the city that had its heart ripped out when its team left ripped another city's heart out by stealing their team.

It's not like the people of Baltimore got together to conspire to steal the Browns out from under their fans. Blame that on the politicians and Moddell. That being said, if you've always wanted a team in your city to root for, and after all those years, one is right in front of you, no rational fan would say "nah, this isn't how I wanted it to happen. We'll just wait for 20 more years until the league expands to us." I find it very difficult for anyone outside of Cleveland to harbor any resentment towards the citizens of Baltimore for this one... and even Clevelanders hatin' on anyone from Baltimore isn't really rational.

We tried to get an expansion team in 1993, but were passed over for Carolina and Jacksonville. Many people thought we'd never get another expansion team after being passed over for "less-qualified" cities (although I have heard that Modell lobbied hard for those to cities so he could get Baltimore for himself). Plus when we got Cleveland we wanted nothing to do with their history or name. That belongs in Cleveland with the fans. As BringBackTheVet said, if we didn't get the Browns we may STILL be without a team.

The only real hypocritical thing I see with Baltimore fans is how they hate Irsay so much, yet lobby for Modell to get into the Hall of Fame. That's always kinda bothered me.

[jkrdevil]

That's no excuse Baltimore was only doing that because of Irsay's actions going to Jacksonville and all. It seems one of his main reasons for moving was he felt unappreciated, which is an utter joke.

No, the main reason was the main reason why most teams move, stadium issues. Memorial Stadium even back then was old, small, and inadequate. The Colts had tried to get the stadium at the very least renovated but ran into trouble getting funding from the state or an agreement from the Orioles. The eminent domain stuff ultimately cause the sneaking out in the middle of the night (because they were afraid it would get passed the next morning) but the Colts were going to be goners regardless because of the stadium.

It wasn't that many years after that the Orioles began lobbying for a new ballpark, which they ultimately got with Camden Yards (with approval for a football stadium to go with it when a team came).

Don't get me wrong Irsay's actions in how he went about things made everything worse and probably the situation toxic to where it left wounds, but the Colts would probably be gone no matter who owned.

[dfwabel]

That's no excuse Baltimore was only doing that because of Irsay's actions going to Jacksonville and all. It seems one of his main reasons for moving was he felt unappreciated, which is an utter joke.

No, the main reason was the main reason why most teams move, stadium issues. Memorial Stadium even back then was old, small, and inadequate. The Colts had tried to get the stadium at the very least renovated but ran into trouble getting funding from the state or an agreement from the Orioles. The eminent domain stuff ultimately cause the sneaking out in the middle of the night (because they were afraid it would get passed the next morning) but the Colts were going to be goners regardless because of the stadium.

It wasn't that many years after that the Orioles began lobbying for a new ballpark, which they ultimately got with Camden Yards (with approval for a football stadium to go with it when a team came).

Don't get me wrong Irsay's actions in how he went about things made everything worse and probably the situation toxic to where it left wounds, but the Colts would probably be gone no matter who owned.

Sorry Tank, but he and "BaltimoreFan" bring more truth to the issue than you have. in fact, in the 1993 book "Playing The Field: Why Sports Teams Move and Cities fight to Keep Them", there is an entire chapter dedicated to the city of Baltimore.

1- There were issues between the Orioles and Colts over specific improvements to the stadium.

2-As early as 1973, both teams were clamoring for a new facility. Then Orioles owner Jerold Hoffberger placed the team up for sale, but he had not takers. As a result he got a new lease from the city. The Colts cried about it for four years and they paid the same amount in 1977, but retroactive to 1975 dollars.

3-The MD legislature did approve $22M in improvements in 1980, but contingent in both teams signing long term leases, both refused and never signed more than a two year lease for the remainder of the time each spent in Memorial Stadium. Plus, at the time, Mayor Schaefer called Memorial Stadium, "one of the finest sports facilities in the country."

[leopard88]

My, Robert Irsay does not come out of "The Band that wouldn't Die" looking well at all.

He came off pretty much the way most Baltimoreans saw him even before the move -- as a thin-skinned, irrational, lying, alcoholic egomaniac. When you see him in action, it's hard to believe he is related to Jimmy Irsay.

It just seems odd that the city that had its heart ripped out when its team left ripped another city's heart out by stealing their team.

It's not like the people of Baltimore got together to conspire to steal the Browns out from under their fans. Blame that on the politicians and Moddell. That being said, if you've always wanted a team in your city to root for, and after all those years, one is right in front of you, no rational fan would say "nah, this isn't how I wanted it to happen. We'll just wait for 20 more years until the league expands to us." I find it very difficult for anyone outside of Cleveland to harbor any resentment towards the citizens of Baltimore for this one... and even Clevelanders hatin' on anyone from Baltimore isn't really rational.

We tried to get an expansion team in 1993, but were passed over for Carolina and Jacksonville. Many people thought we'd never get another expansion team after being passed over for "less-qualified" cities (although I have heard that Modell lobbied hard for those to cities so he could get Baltimore for himself). Plus when we got Cleveland we wanted nothing to do with their history or name. That belongs in Cleveland with the fans. As BringBackTheVet said, if we didn't get the Browns we may STILL be without a team.

BaltimoreFan pretty much hit the nail on the head. Tagliabue and the other owners seemed to have no interest whatsoever in returning to Baltimore or St. Louis, so expansion seemed to be a non-starter at that point. As much as everyone in Baltimore knows it was not the ideal, or even preferred, way to go about getting a team, it was pretty much the only realistic option at that point. In hindsight, I wonder if the other owners have any regrets about choosing Jacksonville over Baltimore.

The only real hypocritical thing I see with Baltimore fans is how they hate Irsay so much, yet lobby for Modell to get into the Hall of Fame. That's always kinda bothered me.

I feel that way sometimes too. If there is a distinction with any validity, it is that Modell contributed a great deal toward developing the NFL's presence on TV. He also agreed to move to the AFC (along with Pittsburgh and Carroll Rosenbloom's Colts) to help facilitate the merger.

[BaltimoreFan]

I watched the USFL film last night. It was the first in the series I watched. It was really good and interesting, I'd definitely like to see the first 2, hopefully they will show a replay soon.

I've always thought that a spring football league could really work. But it appeared that the USFL had a lot of things go their way. The NFL strike seemed to help as it was much easier to lure college players. The owners also seemed willing to pony up the big bucks to get them. It's a shame Donald Trump had to ruin it. I really think the USFL would have lasted if they would have just stayed in the spring. It's really sucks to think one person can ruin such a great thing.

[TBGKon]

I watched the USFL film last night. It was the first in the series I watched. It was really good and interesting, I'd definitely like to see the first 2, hopefully they will show a replay soon.

I've always thought that a spring football league could really work. But it appeared that the USFL had a lot of things go their way. The NFL strike seemed to help as it was much easier to lure college players. The owners also seemed willing to pony up the big bucks to get them. It's a shame Donald Trump had to ruin it. I really think the USFL would have lasted if they would have just stayed in the spring. It's really sucks to think one person can ruin such a great thing.

For these same reasons is what scares me about the current UFL. It's just too tough to compete with the juggernaut known as the NFL. A motion to the spring, replacing NFL Europa and the Arena League is what the doctor ordered.

[Jimmy!]

I watched the USFL film last night. It was the first in the series I watched. It was really good and interesting, I'd definitely like to see the first 2, hopefully they will show a replay soon.

I've always thought that a spring football league could really work. But it appeared that the USFL had a lot of things go their way. The NFL strike seemed to help as it was much easier to lure college players. The owners also seemed willing to pony up the big bucks to get them. It's a shame Donald Trump had to ruin it. I really think the USFL would have lasted if they would have just stayed in the spring. It's really sucks to think one person can ruin such a great thing.

For these same reasons is what scares me about the current UFL. It's just too tough to compete with the juggernaut known as the NFL. A motion to the spring, replacing NFL Europa and the Arena League is what the doctor ordered.

Isn't that, on some level, what the XFL tried?

[leopard88]

I watched the USFL film last night. It was the first in the series I watched. It was really good and interesting, I'd definitely like to see the first 2, hopefully they will show a replay soon.

I've always thought that a spring football league could really work. But it appeared that the USFL had a lot of things go their way. The NFL strike seemed to help as it was much easier to lure college players. The owners also seemed willing to pony up the big bucks to get them. It's a shame Donald Trump had to ruin it. I really think the USFL would have lasted if they would have just stayed in the spring. It's really sucks to think one person can ruin such a great thing.

For these same reasons is what scares me about the current UFL. It's just too tough to compete with the juggernaut known as the NFL. A motion to the spring, replacing NFL Europa and the Arena League is what the doctor ordered.

Isn't that, on some level, what the XFL tried?

It is. However, I believe the XFL erred by trying to act like it was something beyond "regular" football. The league wound up creating an expectation it couldn't meet. If they had played it a bit straighter, they may have had a chance to make a go of it, especially with a network TV contract.

[BaltimoreFan]

I watched the USFL film last night. It was the first in the series I watched. It was really good and interesting, I'd definitely like to see the first 2, hopefully they will show a replay soon.

I've always thought that a spring football league could really work. But it appeared that the USFL had a lot of things go their way. The NFL strike seemed to help as it was much easier to lure college players. The owners also seemed willing to pony up the big bucks to get them. It's a shame Donald Trump had to ruin it. I really think the USFL would have lasted if they would have just stayed in the spring. It's really sucks to think one person can ruin such a great thing.

For these same reasons is what scares me about the current UFL. It's just too tough to compete with the juggernaut known as the NFL. A motion to the spring, replacing NFL Europa and the Arena League is what the doctor ordered.

Isn't that, on some level, what the XFL tried?

It is. However, I believe the XFL erred by trying to act like it was something beyond "regular" football. The league wound up creating an expectation it couldn't meet. If they had played it a bit straighter, they may have had a chance to make a go of it, especially with a network TV contract.

Yea, I remember the XFL had huge expectations. I think a lot of people expected to see The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin suit up and play. I still remember reading the league's FAQ before they started play and one of the questions was "Will a steel cage surround the field?". The XFL just couldn't live up to their expectations. Which is a shame because I really enjoyed it.

As much as I'd love to see spring football, it really needs the "perfect" situation to work. The thing about this documentary that I found interesting was how everything just happened to work out perfectly for the league to build up. But then everything seemed to work out horribly when they moved to the spring. It was like both extremes. For a new spring league to work out it there would probably have to be another NFL strike, which could happen during the next CBA (depending on how the salary cap issue works out). Or they'd have to have a couple prospects "barred" from the NFL (like Maurice Clarett and Mike WIlliams a few years ago). There'd have to be some way to get fans interested.

[Sport]

I watched the USFL film last night. It was the first in the series I watched. It was really good and interesting, I'd definitely like to see the first 2, hopefully they will show a replay soon.

I've always thought that a spring football league could really work. But it appeared that the USFL had a lot of things go their way. The NFL strike seemed to help as it was much easier to lure college players. The owners also seemed willing to pony up the big bucks to get them. It's a shame Donald Trump had to ruin it. I really think the USFL would have lasted if they would have just stayed in the spring. It's really sucks to think one person can ruin such a great thing.

For these same reasons is what scares me about the current UFL. It's just too tough to compete with the juggernaut known as the NFL. A motion to the spring, replacing NFL Europa and the Arena League is what the doctor ordered.

Isn't that, on some level, what the XFL tried?

It is. However, I believe the XFL erred by trying to act like it was something beyond "regular" football. The league wound up creating an expectation it couldn't meet. If they had played it a bit straighter, they may have had a chance to make a go of it, especially with a network TV contract.

I feel like the XFL didn't take itself seriously enough. They had team names such as "Maniax" and "Hitmen" and allowed dumb players to put nicknames on the back of their jerseys. If you aren't taking your own league seriously then what makes you think that the serious sports fan is going to want to shell out money or their time to watch it.

I still think that the flaw of all of the failed leagues (WFL, USFL, XFL) was that they in some way tried to compete with the NFL. The WFL and USFL lured some players away, the USFL positioned itself as an alternative to the NFL, and the XFL positioned itself as a more exciting and crazy WWF version of football that was better than the "boring" NFL. They all played in the spring, the NFL and them could very easily co-exist, but they were all trying to be the next AFL rather than an NFL minor league.

What I've seen from the UFL is that they're being very cautious about how they operate. Their players are all NFL castoffs or college players that didn't make it and they don't have to compete with NFL Europe or the AFL for players like the XFL had to deal with. They only have 4 teams as opposed to the 12 and then 18 of the USFL or the 8 of the XFL so the talent won't be so watered down. And they're only playing a 6 game season. It's more like a test season for the league which I think the other leagues would've been wise to try before jumping into a long season.

[leopard88]

I feel like the XFL didn't take itself seriously enough. They had team names such as "Maniax" and "Hitmen" and allowed dumb players to put nicknames on the back of their jerseys. If you aren't taking your own league seriously then what makes you think that the serious sports fan is going to want to shell out money or their time to watch it.

Interesting point. I think it ties in to trying to be something other than regular football, but I've never thought of it from that perspective.

[dfwabel]

I thought that last night's USFL film seemed, "incomplete". While the league was only around for three years, I think that more than 44 minutes could have been spent. It seemed that the producer wanted Burt Reynolds and Trump. When Trump really did not answer many questions, it seemed that he said, "Well, I think that's it."

You could tell the Hershel stuff was old, but the Steve Young, Jim Kelly, Carl Peterson, and Flutie pieces were more recent. The lack of talk from executives I thought was glaring. Sure, people have passed away, but I was looking for more on the level of the Cosmos film.

[Saintsfan]

The interesting thing about the 'Spring League' debate is that the NFLs own version even failed. Maybe it isn't the golden egg some think it could be? Personally I think the an NFL backed, kind of minor league for Football, might be the way to go. Someone failed players can go and try and prove themselves. Maybe put it into small market towns, get a loyal fanbase in small towns. Get some big names in to help.

heck maybe on some ways the UFL aren't that far away from the mark!

[NJTank]

There used to be minor league or semi pro teams through out the country that NFL teams had a loose association with, but those fizzled out in the 70s.

[Saintsfan]

There used to be minor league or semi pro teams through out the country that NFL teams had a loose association with, but those fizzled out in the 70s.

Whats to stop the NFL setting up a minor league with teams around the country, connected directly to NFL franchises, give it some relevance. I think thats what other leagues have struggled with.

[NJTank]

It might be a good idea, esp with the NFL Newtork, you can put the games on during the week.

[Saintsfan]

It might be a good idea, esp with the NFL Newtork, you can put the games on during the week.

Well even NFL Europe didn't last, so I am not holding my breath, but I think thats the most likely way a spring league would be made to work. I am sure it would fill out the NFL Networks schedules, and ESPN or one of the big networks could be interested in a supporting role.

[Still MIGHTY]

NFL Network and Versus.

Versus would be all over that.

[rams80]

There used to be minor league or semi pro teams through out the country that NFL teams had a loose association with, but those fizzled out in the 70s.

Whats to stop the NFL setting up a minor league with teams around the country, connected directly to NFL franchises, give it some relevance. I think thats what other leagues have struggled with.

1. There would need to be one feeder team per NFL team, simply due to the diversity in playing systems that are at work here. A 32 team league is quite an expensive and complex proposition.

2. The NFL is content with NCAA Division I as its feeder system.

[Saintsfan]

There used to be minor league or semi pro teams through out the country that NFL teams had a loose association with, but those fizzled out in the 70s.

Whats to stop the NFL setting up a minor league with teams around the country, connected directly to NFL franchises, give it some relevance. I think thats what other leagues have struggled with.

1. There would need to be one feeder team per NFL team, simply due to the diversity in playing systems that are at work here. A 32 team league is quite an expensive and complex proposition.

2. The NFL is content with NCAA Division I as its feeder system.

I don't see why say 3 or 4 NFL teams couldn't link with 1 minor league team? Or why you couldn't perhaps have 4 seperate leagues leading to a playoff system, with each league represented by its champion.

I don;t see that each feeder team would have to play to a similar system to its potential parent team.

The problem with the NCAA system is that eventually you graduate. Take Matt Stafford as an example here. A slightly undercooked perhaps player coming into the NFL. The Lions at least would have an option of sending him down to the minors after his first season to get some more game time snaps. (Not that you would necesarrily do that with a number 1 overall pick!) But it does give you more options.

To be honest, you probably wouldn't want a 32 team minor league, given that that is another 1500 pros (albeit at a lower pay level). But say 8 teams in markets without NFL representation (say Portland, Or, San Antonio, Kentucky, Columbus, Birmingham, Utah, The Dakotas somewhere, and Oklahoma??) (I am not arguing for those just giving examples off of the top of my head) in smallish 30,000 seat stadiums, each linked to 4 teams say, would give non draftees somewhere to go and try and make the grade, and players without contracts to show something, you could perhaps even invite draft prosepcts to play a game or two in the league before the draft?? I dunno I think its an idea that could work, but I don't see the NFL really being interested in it, not if they weren't interested in trying to make NFL Europe work.

I don;t see it happening ever, but I think its the only way a spring league ever works out in the long run.