ESPN "30 FOR 30" Series

[rams80]

NFL teams, if they set up a formalized minor league system, would like for their players to be able to get as much experience within their own team's system as possible. Miami would like to see their players experience the Wildcat, New England would like to see their players experience that modified spread offense they run, and the Giants would like to see their defenders adjust to Giant defense. A shared feeder team would make this difficult to accomplish.

Additionally, you want your guys to get playing time (or so the theory goes.) Whose running back gets to start in this situation? Whose linebacker? And it doesn't do them much good to simply play for a quarter or a half and sit back down.

[HedleyLamarr]

Since the NFL only plays 16 games, there's really no need for a minor league.

You have a 53-man squad, 45 of which play on Sundays. In addition to the active 53, you have 8 practice squad players.

Generally, NFL teams won't need more than 61 players during the course of the season.

[dfwabel]

NFL teams, if they set up a formalized minor league system, would like for their players to be able to get as much experience within their own team's system as possible. Miami would like to see their players experience the Wildcat, New England would like to see their players experience that modified spread offense they run, and the Giants would like to see their defenders adjust to Giant defense. A shared feeder team would make this difficult to accomplish.

Additionally, you want your guys to get playing time (or so the theory goes.) Whose running back gets to start in this situation? Whose linebacker? And it doesn't do them much good to simply play for a quarter or a half and sit back down.

Remember that any player placed on a team's practice squad can still be signed by any other team to be on the Active (or Inactive) List. The team signing that player must pay the player three game checks at the league minimum (or greater). So if teams run similar systems, possible replacements are basically in place.

FYI, the NFL can grant a additional practice squad roster spot to a team if a player is not a US citizen, or who was born outside the US and Territories.

[jkrdevil]

I watched the USFL film last night. It was the first in the series I watched. It was really good and interesting, I'd definitely like to see the first 2, hopefully they will show a replay soon.

I've always thought that a spring football league could really work. But it appeared that the USFL had a lot of things go their way. The NFL strike seemed to help as it was much easier to lure college players. The owners also seemed willing to pony up the big bucks to get them. It's a shame Donald Trump had to ruin it. I really think the USFL would have lasted if they would have just stayed in the spring. It's really sucks to think one person can ruin such a great thing.

For these same reasons is what scares me about the current UFL. It's just too tough to compete with the juggernaut known as the NFL. A motion to the spring, replacing NFL Europa and the Arena League is what the doctor ordered.

Isn't that, on some level, what the XFL tried?

It is. However, I believe the XFL erred by trying to act like it was something beyond "regular" football. The league wound up creating an expectation it couldn't meet. If they had played it a bit straighter, they may have had a chance to make a go of it, especially with a network TV contract.

I feel like the XFL didn't take itself seriously enough. They had team names such as "Maniax" and "Hitmen" and allowed dumb players to put nicknames on the back of their jerseys. If you aren't taking your own league seriously then what makes you think that the serious sports fan is going to want to shell out money or their time to watch it.

The problem with the XFL was that its greatest strength was its biggest weakness and downfall. That is Vince McMahon. Through his media relationships he was able to get the league a solid tv deal and exposure that paid off early on in getting attention for the league and viewership. However, becuase he is Vince McMahon and how he has gone about his other business (WWE) he brought with him a lack of credibility. As pointed out there were questions as to if the football would be real because his wrestling events were admittedly not real. Then these issues were compounded by trying to fit the square peg of marketing the league like they would the WWE into the round hole of football. The result was football fans were never sold on it from the beginning and wrestling fans tuned out when they realized it was legit. They could have probably done stuff better like bring in established football people (they had Butkus but Butkus didn't act in the way to bring it credibility). Still I think a major problem was the presence of Vince McMahon himself because of his rep. Like I said though without him a league like that probably never gets off the ground because a network like NBC doesn't jump on board.

[Saintsfan]

NFL teams, if they set up a formalized minor league system, would like for their players to be able to get as much experience within their own team's system as possible. Miami would like to see their players experience the Wildcat, New England would like to see their players experience that modified spread offense they run, and the Giants would like to see their defenders adjust to Giant defense. A shared feeder team would make this difficult to accomplish.

Additionally, you want your guys to get playing time (or so the theory goes.) Whose running back gets to start in this situation? Whose linebacker? And it doesn't do them much good to simply play for a quarter or a half and sit back down.

Again we are talking hypothetically here, but the way I would see a minor league feeder operation running is this.

Each of the minor league franchises is its own operation. There would be a small supplemental draft allowing any undrafted NFL prospects to be drafted into the feeder league. Feeder teams would be free to sign any free agents they wish to. Each franchise might hold 30 or 35 of its own players, maybe a few more maybe a few less. The NFL franchises attached to that team could then send down players it feels could do with playing in the league. Those players would become, for the length of time they are at the feeder team, the property of that team. The NFL franchises would have no automatic right to say what systems the feeder teams play, but could of course make suggestions. They would have the power to recall any of there players at any time they chose to.

Additionally, as its played in Spring, the NFL might request that some draft prospects get some game time prior to the draft in certain circumstances. (Maybe a player was injured during there final college year, or some questions might have been raised about fitness or whatever.)

It wouldn't be a lot different from how NFL Europe operated really, plenty of decent NFL players came through NFL Europe (Brad Johnson I remember, for instance).

[Saintsfan]

Since the NFL only plays 16 games, there's really no need for a minor league.

You have a 53-man squad, 45 of which play on Sundays. In addition to the active 53, you have 8 practice squad players.

Generally, NFL teams won't need more than 61 players during the course of the season.

Maybe a minor league isn't the right way to label it, perhaps a development league is better. But remember this is a spring league, so wouldn't be running in conjunction with the NFL season, and it would allow practice squad members or 2nd or 3rd string players some game time.

As I say its only a hypothetical, and would I am sure be very expensive for the NFL, so would never happen, but I think it has some value as an idea.

[Sport]

I watched the USFL film last night. It was the first in the series I watched. It was really good and interesting, I'd definitely like to see the first 2, hopefully they will show a replay soon.

I've always thought that a spring football league could really work. But it appeared that the USFL had a lot of things go their way. The NFL strike seemed to help as it was much easier to lure college players. The owners also seemed willing to pony up the big bucks to get them. It's a shame Donald Trump had to ruin it. I really think the USFL would have lasted if they would have just stayed in the spring. It's really sucks to think one person can ruin such a great thing.

For these same reasons is what scares me about the current UFL. It's just too tough to compete with the juggernaut known as the NFL. A motion to the spring, replacing NFL Europa and the Arena League is what the doctor ordered.

Isn't that, on some level, what the XFL tried?

It is. However, I believe the XFL erred by trying to act like it was something beyond "regular" football. The league wound up creating an expectation it couldn't meet. If they had played it a bit straighter, they may have had a chance to make a go of it, especially with a network TV contract.

I feel like the XFL didn't take itself seriously enough. They had team names such as "Maniax" and "Hitmen" and allowed dumb players to put nicknames on the back of their jerseys. If you aren't taking your own league seriously then what makes you think that the serious sports fan is going to want to shell out money or their time to watch it.

The problem with the XFL was that its greatest strength was its biggest weakness and downfall. That is Vince McMahon. Through his media relationships he was able to get the league a solid tv deal and exposure that paid off early on in getting attention for the league and viewership. However, becuase he is Vince McMahon and how he has gone about his other business (WWE) he brought with him a lack of credibility. As pointed out there were questions as to if the football would be real because his wrestling events were admittedly not real. Then these issues were compounded by trying to fit the square peg of marketing the league like they would the WWE into the round hole of football. The result was football fans were never sold on it from the beginning and wrestling fans tuned out when they realized it was legit. They could have probably done stuff better like bring in established football people (they had Butkus but Butkus didn't act in the way to bring it credibility). Still I think a major problem was the presence of Vince McMahon himself because of his rep. Like I said though without him a league like that probably never gets off the ground because a network like NBC doesn't jump on board.

Another problem they had was their marquis game of the week matchups were played on Friday night. The first game got big ratings out of curiosity, but the time slot was not conducive for their target market. If NBC or one of the other networks had given up sunday night then they probably would've have a better chance. Also, the rest of their games were on Spike or as it was know then, The National Network, which had a very low profile among cable viewers. It was basically tractor pulls and american gladiator reruns.

Still, I maintain it was too gimmicky for the serious sports fan to ever adopt. The players only got paid if they won, the ball scramble instead of the coin toss, skankier cheerleaders, ridiculous team names and uniforms, and nicknames. I agree with you that it was too phony for real football fans, and not WWF enough for the wrestling crowd.

[Lee.]

The NFL already has a minor-league system. It's called NCAA D-I.

[Saintsfan]

The NFL already has a minor-league system. It's called NCAA D-I.

Except that when a player graduates, he is done in the NCAA.

I just think there is value in giving players somewhere else to continue to develop. Kurt Warner benfitted from that.

[NJTank]

The NFL should ahve a developmental league, thats why I was disappointed when NFL Erupe went kaput. Kurt Warner could be a Hall of Famer, if not for AFL and NFLE he would still be a bagger.

[Mac the Knife]

I thought that last night's USFL film seemed, "incomplete". While the league was only around for three years, I think that more than 44 minutes could have been spent. It seemed that the producer wanted Burt Reynolds and Trump. When Trump really did not answer many questions, it seemed that he said, "Well, I think that's it."

You could tell the Hershel stuff was old, but the Steve Young, Jim Kelly, Carl Peterson, and Flutie pieces were more recent. The lack of talk from executives I thought was glaring. Sure, people have passed away, but I was looking for more on the level of the Cosmos film.

It was woefully incomplete, and heavily skewed to make Donald Trump out to be the villain. Don't get me wrong - I don't really care much for "The Donald" or his business practices. But the fact of the matter was that the owners of the USFL's teams ultimately screwed themselves by deciding to move to the fall. Donald Trump might've had some influence, but ultimately the decision was theirs - and these guys weren't lemmings. You don't get to a position of ownership of any professional sports team by being stupid with money.

The USFL had a sound foundation in the form of the Dixon Plan. It made sense from a business perspective, but the owners decided to spend themselves into oblivion. Someone implementing a similar plan today, though with more realistic financial goals (i.e., 5-7,000 in attendance, no TV contract, and player salaries to match those figures) would work. While the concept of spring football is a sound one, it has a limited audience - it did then, and it does today.

[rams80]

The NFL already has a minor-league system. It's called NCAA D-I.

Except that when a player graduates, he is done in the NCAA.

I just think there is value in giving players somewhere else to continue to develop. Kurt Warner benfitted from that.

There aren't enough "leakers" to justify the cost.

[Saintsfan]

I thought that last night's USFL film seemed, "incomplete". While the league was only around for three years, I think that more than 44 minutes could have been spent. It seemed that the producer wanted Burt Reynolds and Trump. When Trump really did not answer many questions, it seemed that he said, "Well, I think that's it."

You could tell the Hershel stuff was old, but the Steve Young, Jim Kelly, Carl Peterson, and Flutie pieces were more recent. The lack of talk from executives I thought was glaring. Sure, people have passed away, but I was looking for more on the level of the Cosmos film.

It was woefully incomplete, and heavily skewed to make Donald Trump out to be the villain. Don't get me wrong - I don't really care much for "The Donald" or his business practices. But the fact of the matter was that the owners of the USFL's teams ultimately screwed themselves by deciding to move to the fall. Donald Trump might've had some influence, but ultimately the decision was theirs - and these guys weren't lemmings. You don't get to a position of ownership of any professional sports team by being stupid with money.

The USFL had a sound foundation in the form of the Dixon Plan. It made sense from a business perspective, but the owners decided to spend themselves into oblivion. Someone implementing a similar plan today, though with more realistic financial goals (i.e., 5-7,000 in attendance, no TV contract, and player salaries to match those figures) would work. While the concept of spring football is a sound one, it has a limited audience - it did then, and it does today.

I think the point of the film, as I understand (albeit without having seen it) was not to present a history of the USFL, but to explain why it failed, and to chronicle Trump's part in that.

-----------------------

My 'development league' idea is not meant to be a massive huge league, I wouldn't imagine it being comparable to the XFL or USFL for instance. Maybe 8 teams playing 8 games through the spring, with a season final around draft time maybe. As I say its an entirely hypothetical idea, partly because it will be costly. But where does an undrafted player, maybe from a small college, or someone who has had a rough run of luck in the NFL go now?

[BaltimoreFan]

the ball scramble instead of the coin toss

I actually kinda liked this rule. It changed the decision from luck to skill. Maybe there were better ways to do it, but I thought it was a fairly original idea.

[dfwabel]

The producer did note really explain why it failed, but rather what Trump did and that the lawsuit only game them $3 in damages. Even though he had the footage, he failed to talk about the drastically declining crowds in many cities. Heck, three to four minutes were used for the HOU@LA game, yet he failed to tell the audience that the final games of the Express were not at the LA Coliseum, but rather at a junior college. I agree with Mac, too little into the backstory.

[HedleyLamarr]

My 'development league' idea is not meant to be a massive huge league, I wouldn't imagine it being comparable to the XFL or USFL for instance. Maybe 8 teams playing 8 games through the spring, with a season final around draft time maybe. As I say its an entirely hypothetical idea, partly because it will be costly. But where does an undrafted player, maybe from a small college, or someone who has had a rough run of luck in the NFL go now?

The CFL, the Arena League, the UFL, or bagging groceries.

Not every player is good enough to play in the NFL. The NFL certainly isn't suffering from a talent shortage.

Creating a developmental league is pointless. It'll feature 4th-stringers playing against 4th-stringers. It won't be quality money spent in developing players, as they'll be playing inferior talent. Would you pay money to see games that'll equate to what the NFL sends out during the preseason?

How would you handle four NFL teams sending players to one developmental league? Who determines which players get to play? How can you develop players when they're having to learn different playbooks when they go back to their NFL teams?

[dfwabel]

My 'development league' idea is not meant to be a massive huge league, I wouldn't imagine it being comparable to the XFL or USFL for instance. Maybe 8 teams playing 8 games through the spring, with a season final around draft time maybe. As I say its an entirely hypothetical idea, partly because it will be costly. But where does an undrafted player, maybe from a small college, or someone who has had a rough run of luck in the NFL go now?

The CFL, the Arena League, the USL, or bagging groceries.

Not every player is good enough to play in the NFL. The NFL certainly isn't suffering from a talent shortage.

Creating a developmental league is pointless. It'll feature 4th-stringers playing against 4th-stringers. It won't be quality money spent in developing players, as they'll be playing inferior talent. Would you pay money to see games that'll equate to what the NFL sends out during the preseason?

How would you handle four NFL teams sending players to one developmental league? Who determines which players get to play? How can you develop players when they're having to learn different playbooks when they go back to their NFL teams?

+1. Then there is the funding issue to think about. The Owners are already opting out from the current CBA as they think that they are giving away too much revenue already. Now, a new league would have to be supported by the owners who already feel slighted revenue-wise. The owners would have to pay the player salaries, coaches/management salaries (and benefits) et al before any possible TV revenue would offset it.

Now the current CBA is even complicated for me, but for kicks, if you don't have it on your desktop, just Google "NFL CBA" and it can be on your desktop in seconds. Now for the amendments, look here:

NFL Amendments to the CBA

It gives the truth on which revenue is shared or kept by the owners. This link should highlight the word "revenue" to assist you go through it faster.

[Saintsfan]

My 'development league' idea is not meant to be a massive huge league, I wouldn't imagine it being comparable to the XFL or USFL for instance. Maybe 8 teams playing 8 games through the spring, with a season final around draft time maybe. As I say its an entirely hypothetical idea, partly because it will be costly. But where does an undrafted player, maybe from a small college, or someone who has had a rough run of luck in the NFL go now?

The CFL, the Arena League, the UFL, or bagging groceries.

Not every player is good enough to play in the NFL. The NFL certainly isn't suffering from a talent shortage.

Creating a developmental league is pointless. It'll feature 4th-stringers playing against 4th-stringers. It won't be quality money spent in developing players, as they'll be playing inferior talent. Would you pay money to see games that'll equate to what the NFL sends out during the preseason?

How would you handle four NFL teams sending players to one developmental league? Who determines which players get to play? How can you develop players when they're having to learn different playbooks when they go back to their NFL teams?

Which Arena League is this?? The one that is 'working to resume play in 2010'? The UFL? How long is that going to last? The CFL, that uses whole other rules?

I guess my model in my head is a kind of small scale WLF or NFL Europe, and plenty of teams were happy to pack talent off to NFL Europe for development. As I said earlier, the development teams would be there own organisation, NFL teams wouldn't be able to force a team to do anything other than release a player.

Its a hypothetical that won't ever happen, mainly due to financial reasons, but I think the idea could be made to work if the NFL wanted it to.

[Sodboy13]

Another problem they had was their marquis game of the week matchups were played on Friday night. The first game got big ratings out of curiosity, but the time slot was not conducive for their target market. If NBC or one of the other networks had given up sunday night then they probably would've have a better chance. Also, the rest of their games were on Spike or as it was know then, The National Network, which had a very low profile among cable viewers. It was basically tractor pulls and american gladiator reruns.

Still, I maintain it was too gimmicky for the serious sports fan to ever adopt. The players only got paid if they won, the ball scramble instead of the coin toss, skankier cheerleaders, ridiculous team names and uniforms, and nicknames. I agree with you that it was too phony for real football fans, and not WWF enough for the wrestling crowd.

Just to correct a couple of your points here:

- The NBC games were on Saturday nights, with TNN and UPN taking the Sunday afternoon matchups. Regardless, NBC expected weeknight prime-time ratings from the XFL, and that's something no sports startup could ever have delivered. And once that Chicago-L.A. double overtime game happened and pushed back the start time of SNL in Week 2, the agreement with NBC was all but dead. If NBC had broadcast their matchups on Saturday afternoons, and let cable take the Saturday night game, more reasonable expectations may have been placed on both.

- The players got paid regardless of whether they won or lost. However, they got paid a bonus for winning.

- Some of the names were on the silly side - Rage, Maniax, Xtreme. But the other names - Thunderbolts, Hitmen, Enforcers, Demons, and Outlaws - were pretty tame and traditional. And if you look at the teams' uniforms, I think that you'll find, outside of what Memphis wore and Orlando's helmet and number font, that the uniform packages in the XFL were put together pretty well, and were definitely on the traditional side. I mean, put something like Las Vegas or the Hitmen up against a modern college design, and you tell me which one is outlandish.

- On your last point, I concur. Vince never quite figured out who he wanted to market his football league to, or how he wanted to market to them, which is a shame.

[NJTank]

The XFL failed because the games were bad, Vince marketed it as Smashmouth football and it was anything but. The quailty of play was bad, some of the rules were silly like no kickoff, and that dash for the ball seemed to get someone injured every week, and the mixture of WWE style nicknames did not mixwell with the regimented style of traditional football.