Kiss Cut Numbers

[zilch]

I have a couple of questions about this. First I believe that how this works is the middle layer of a three color number is just an outline on top of the first and third layer, and that middle layer is the only one that gets sewn until the whole number gets sewn onto the jersey? Hope this makes some kinda sense. Second I believe that the blues use kiss cut numbers, and if so when did they start? I am wanting to letter an authentic Blues jersey from 1998-1999 and want to get it 100% correct, but not sure if they did this back then. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[andrewharrington]

I have a couple of questions about this. First I believe that how this works is the middle layer of a three color number is just an outline on top of the first and third layer, and that middle layer is the only one that gets sewn until the whole number gets sewn onto the jersey? Hope this makes some kinda sense. Second I believe that the blues use kiss cut numbers, and if so when did they start? I am wanting to letter an authentic Blues jersey from 1998-1999 and want to get it 100% correct, but not sure if they did this back then. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

If you have a three color numeral, you would have the base, which is the numeral color, and then on top of that you would have two outlines that would be sewn on to the base and, ultimately, to the jersey.

This is triple-layer twill from a Buffalo Bills home uniform. You can see how you have a white piece of twill sewn atop a slightly larger blue piece of twill, which is sewn atop an even larger silver piece of twill. There are three full-coverage layers of twill for each of these numerals.

The kiss cut technique cuts out the layering by just sewing the outline over the top of the numeral. On this San Diego Chargers away jersey, you can see how you have the base layer of navy blue twill. Sewn atop that is a layer of light blue twill with the center punched out. Sewn atop that is a layer of yellow twill with even more of the center punched out to reveal the light blue outline.

Unfortunately, you'll need to find an image or specimen of a game used jersey to find out if the Blues did this back then. My first inclination is that they would have used three-layer twill, not kiss-cut, because hockey jerseys generally are a bit heavier and because the era you're trying to replicate was almost 15 years ago. Certainly it wasn't as prevalent as it is in today's lightweight-obsessed sportswear world. If I had to guess, I'd guess three-layer, though kiss-cut is possible. You'd really have to find good images of a gamer to find out, but if it's any solace, even today you still see triple-layer in hockey, as evidenced by this Oilers gamer from last season:

[zilch]

Ya I know for sure that they (the blues) used kissed-cut numbers on the edge jersey cause I saw them in the locker room but it looked like the only part that had the center cut out was the "middle layer" I guess I could be wrong since that's the first time I saw the numbers this way?

[BRice16]

Ya I know for sure that they (the blues) used kissed-cut numbers on the edge jersey cause I saw them in the locker room but it looked like the only part that had the center cut out was the "middle layer" I guess I could be wrong since that's the first time I saw the numbers this way?

The first instances of kiss-cut numbers that I've seen were around 2002-03, and those were football jerseys. It came to hockey much later. So if you're looking to do any type of jersey from before then, it would likely NOT have the kiss-cut numbers.

[zilch]

Awesome. The only one I was worried that much about was my starter 98-99 blues jersey cause it's an authentic and want to letter it with MacInnis on it and have it signed

[slapshot]

Are all NHL numbers triple-layer now with the new materials?

I have a game-worn Springfield Falcons jersey (2007-08 or 2008-09 season). The numbers are one layer, with all the different outlines screened in with a fake stitched pattern. Since a single layer would have to weigh less than three layers, is this consistent with the current jerseys in the NHL?

I also have an authentic Tim Thomas Bruins alternate jersey (with fight strap), where the numbers and letters are multiple sewn layers, but the sewn-on shoulder patches are one screened layer.

[AsM29]

All of the teams in the NHL have their jerseys numbered and lettered by different people. Because of this, the techniques vary from team to team. As far as the bruins go, I know for a fact that the jerseys they wear on the ice are 3 layer twill with an embroidered shoulder patch..

[BBTV]

I don't mind the screened EQT style numbers much - it's just the fake screened stitching that I find insulting.

I know there's an feeling of accomplishment when you graduate from screened or pressed numbers to a team / league that goes with stitching, but if we're just screening onto thin twill and stitching that (or even just pressing it in some cases) on, does it really matter? Is it that much better than just going screened or pressed the whole way?

[BelfourThibault]

Are all NHL numbers triple-layer now with the new materials?

I have a game-worn Springfield Falcons jersey (2007-08 or 2008-09 season). The numbers are one layer, with all the different outlines screened in with a fake stitched pattern. Since a single layer would have to weigh less than three layers, is this consistent with the current jerseys in the NHL?

I also have an authentic Tim Thomas Bruins alternate jersey (with fight strap), where the numbers and letters are multiple sewn layers, but the sewn-on shoulder patches are one screened layer.

Like ASM29 mentioned, no authentics have screened shoulder patches. They're all fully embroidered. Unless of course the first batch of EDGE jerseys (like maybe before they hit mass retail) had the screened shoulder patches. I have 6 authentics in the closet and they're all sewn/embroidered.

[zilch]

Ya I would assume that the bruins jersey is a china fake. No NHL team "nowadays" would have anything screen printed on twill or jersey for that matter

[Morgan33]

The first instances of kiss-cut numbers that I've seen were around 2002-03, and those were football jerseys. It came to hockey much later. So if you're looking to do any type of jersey from before then, it would likely NOT have the kiss-cut numbers.

Not so. The Islanders used the kiss-cut technique as early as 1995 on glacier twill.

Looking again it looks like a combination of the two techniques with the glacier twill blue layered over top the teal and the orange outline using the kiss-cut.

[zilch]

Ahhhhhh now I'm back to square 1. Guess I gotta find a picture

[BRice16]

Not so. The Islanders used the kiss-cut technique as early as 1995 on glacier twill.

Looking again it looks like a combination of the two techniques with the glacier twill blue layered over top the teal and the orange outline using the kiss-cut.

Wow. That blows me away. I wonder if it was the local shop they used, because CCM didn't use that technique on retail jerseys, unless I'm again mistaken.

I've got a friend that was a Nike rep last decade that was certain Powers Athletic was the first to do it for them in the early 2000s.

Ripon didn't start until 02, and they didn't do it widespread until 04/05, as teams' local shops weren't able to duplicate it for extra and replacement jerseys.

As far as the specific Blues jersey, I would be surprised if Starter was using it then, they weren't on retail authentics, but as we've seen in this thread, I've been surprised before.

[Morgan33]

Not so. The Islanders used the kiss-cut technique as early as 1995 on glacier twill.

Looking again it looks like a combination of the two techniques with the glacier twill blue layered over top the teal and the orange outline using the kiss-cut.

Wow. That blows me away. I wonder if it was the local shop they used, because CCM didn't use that technique on retail jerseys, unless I'm again mistaken.

I've got a friend that was a Nike rep last decade that was certain Powers Athletic was the first to do it for them in the early 2000s.

Ripon didn't start until 02, and they didn't do it widespread until 04/05, as teams' local shops weren't able to duplicate it for extra and replacement jerseys.

As far as the specific Blues jersey, I would be surprised if Starter was using it then, they weren't on retail authentics, but as we've seen in this thread, I've been surprised before.

Keep in mind that this is an authentic game issued jersey. Definitely the real deal, Im sure the Retail Replica's didn't use the technique.

[BRice16]

Keep in mind that this is an authentic game issued jersey. Definitely the real deal, Im sure the Retail Replica's didn't use the technique.

I understand that. That's exactly what I'm saying. More than one person I know in the industry had kiss-cut numbers coming into use in the early 00s. This puts the date 5 years earlier, and has it in hockey, where it was believed to have appeared widely in football first. Very interesting.

[andrewharrington]

The first instances of kiss-cut numbers that I've seen were around 2002-03, and those were football jerseys. It came to hockey much later. So if you're looking to do any type of jersey from before then, it would likely NOT have the kiss-cut numbers.

Not so. The Islanders used the kiss-cut technique as early as 1995 on glacier twill.

Looking again it looks like a combination of the two techniques with the glacier twill blue layered over top the teal and the orange outline using the kiss-cut.

Great image. I have seen this technique used for kiss-cutting before. I think the teal twill and the blue twill are butted up next to each other and stitched (the center of the teal twill is punched out to allow the blue number to be set into it, obviously). Then the orange line is stitched down atop that.

[benpc21]

It's been a while since I've thought about this, but my gut is telling me two things about those blues jerseys, first that the outside layer on the white and the middle layer on the blue jersey isn't navy its black and that its actually a plastic, rather than a twill (just that layer). I don't remember when I heard this or where, but i feel like it was over at the icejerseys forums. Those guys are 100% hockey and know a lot about little technical things especially technical specs for lettering and numbers. I feel like spyboy1 might have the answer here.

[andrewharrington]

It's been a while since I've thought about this, but my gut is telling me two things about those blues jerseys, first that the outside layer on the white and the middle layer on the blue jersey isn't navy its black and that its actually a plastic, rather than a twill (just that layer). I don't remember when I heard this or where, but i feel like it was over at the icejerseys forums. Those guys are 100% hockey and know a lot about little technical things especially technical specs for lettering and numbers. I feel like spyboy1 might have the answer here.

There's something to what you're saying. I don't know as much about hockey jerseys, but I do know that there is some new technology in the Edge system that is related to keeping the crest and numerals lightweight and moisture free. Flexible plastic would seem to be a good option.

[benpc21]

It's been a while since I've thought about this, but my gut is telling me two things about those blues jerseys, first that the outside layer on the white and the middle layer on the blue jersey isn't navy its black and that its actually a plastic, rather than a twill (just that layer). I don't remember when I heard this or where, but i feel like it was over at the icejerseys forums. Those guys are 100% hockey and know a lot about little technical things especially technical specs for lettering and numbers. I feel like spyboy1 might have the answer here.

There's something to what you're saying. I don't know as much about hockey jerseys, but I do know that there is some new technology in the Edge system that is related to keeping the crest and numerals lightweight and moisture free. Flexible plastic would seem to be a good option.

Sorry, I wasn't discussing the current EDGE jerseys, but rather the altnate from the late 90s that turned into the dark jersey and a white one was added. Hopefully someone here knows what I'm talking about!

[-kj]

... and the middle layer on the blue jersey isn't navy its black ...

It's navy. The Blues haven't used black at all, at least as far as I recall.