Viper

Say it ain't so, Joe

2,660 posts in this topic

And to make matters even "better" for Paterno in this case it sounds like the incident in question was 3 years AFTER they'd fired the guy which means their responsibility is minimal.

That argument might have merit if they hadn't allowed him continued access to Penn State facilities, the same facilities he allegedly used to molest more boys. They took responsibility for him, and can't just undo that with a wave of their hands.

From the article:

It is worth noting here what Paterno did upon hearing a first-hand story from a "very upset" graduate assistant, in the words of the report, about "Jerry Sandusky ... fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy": Paterno took no action except to tell his athletic director.

Disgraceful. That will and ought to be his legacy.

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Forget arrested or fired. Anyone involved or who enabled it should be castrated.

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I'm a little lost in all of this. The only Joe Paterno I know is the feeble old man on the sidelines of Penn State games that looks far more like a mascot than he does a functioning head football coach.

I say that only to say that I've long been under the impressions that Paterno's primary function is to help recruiting and to act as a shiny totem during football games. I haven't considered him to be a person of authority in any capacity on quite some time (at least a decade).

That's not to excuse his lack of behavior, but more that I'm surprised people think Paterno can actually do stuff. He looks like he's in a constant vegetative state, and I wouldn't expect him to do much more than smile and nod during any off-field activities.

Lots of people deserve lots of bad things in this scandal, including the literal head of the football program (which is, of course, Paterno). I guess I'm just pointing out that when you keep 80-year-olds as team managers, you should be too surprised when their judgment is wither impaired or incorrect.

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I'm a little lost in all of this. The only Joe Paterno I know is the feeble old man on the sidelines of Penn State games that looks far more like a mascot than he does a functioning head football coach.

I say that only to say that I've long been under the impressions that Paterno's primary function is to help recruiting and to act as a shiny totem during football games. I haven't considered him to be a person of authority in any capacity on quite some time (at least a decade).

That's not to excuse his lack of behavior, but more that I'm surprised people think Paterno can actually do stuff. He looks like he's in a constant vegetative state, and I wouldn't expect him to do much more than smile and nod during any off-field activities.

Lots of people deserve lots of bad things in this scandal, including the literal head of the football program (which is, of course, Paterno). I guess I'm just pointing out that when you keep 80-year-olds as team managers, you should be too surprised when their judgment is wither impaired or incorrect.

While I agree that he's probably not sitting at his desk 27hrs/day like other coaches who micromanage everything down to the janitorial staff, and I'd even guess that he's not even the one drawing up the gameplans anymore, he is beloved enough that nobody would ever cross him for fear of being labeled as monsters in the public eye. Had he (and this was 9 years ago, so he was only in his early 120s) taken any action, people certainly would've listened just so that it wouldn't come out that they defied the great JoePa.

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That and on top of the feeble old man angle which I agree with, think of yourself in that situation. Someone comes to you, some graduate assistant you don't know or haven't known long, and claims a friend of 30+ years is doing something this heinous... what would your reaction be? I don't know about you, but I'd be incredulous and not likely to believe it let alone do anything like calling the cops about it. In that regard the fact he even went to the AD is surprising in and of itself. And I sure as hell wouldn't call the cops on my friend on the word of someone who I don't know or trust based on their word alone. I think you see that too in Paterno's statement that, "IF this is true we were all fooled." I get the feeling he still can't believe it. It's easy to point fingers from outside as we all are, but put yourself in his shoes. You'd likely have reacted the same way. That is unless they did know more, but right now based on what we know assuming they knew anything more than the second hand report from 2002 would be jumping the gun.

I'll say again, the real person who should have acted here was the grad assistant. Why didn't THEY call the cops as the eyewitness in 2002?

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The grad student did what he was supposed to - report it to an authority. Maybe he should have called the cops as well, but his moral responsibility to do do wasn't half as strong as Paterno's, who was an authority figure.

And I'm not buying the "old man" defense. Was he incapable of dialing 911? If he was aware enough to tell his AD, he was aware enough to enquire as to why no punishment was ever leveled against the pedophile.

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Well, no. The grad assistant was likely young enough to know he needed additional guidance and direction. The authority figure to whom he reported should have satisfactorily handled it.

I hope I don't sound like I'm excusing Paterno's behavior, because I'm not. I'm trying to say that he shouldn't have been then and shouldn't be now considered the ultimate day-to-day authority in Penn State athletics. That's simply not his role.

However, as a human, regardless of age, he should have acted better and thus deserves what he gets.

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Penn State should be immediately handed the death penalty, permanently, for football. You can't let things like this happen on anyone's watch.

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Penn State should be immediately handed the death penalty, permanently, for football. You can't let things like this happen on anyone's watch.

Don't know of you're serious, but I wouldn't have a problem with that. Too many people in charge turned a blind eye to child rape happening in their school. There's no moral reason that program should continue to exist.

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The grad student did what he was supposed to - report it to an authority. Maybe he should have called the cops as well, but his moral responsibility to do do wasn't half as strong as Paterno's, who was an authority figure.

And I'm not buying the "old man" defense. Was he incapable of dialing 911? If he was aware enough to tell his AD, he was aware enough to enquire as to why no punishment was ever leveled against the pedophile.

Wait, so you're saying the GA (who being a graduate student was a 22+ year old adult had no moral duty to call the police. After witnessing the event all he had to do was report it up the chain? Yet Paterno, as a second hand party who did not witness anything and was not likely to believe the accusation against an old friend on the word of some person he hardly knows, did have a moral duty to call the police rather than report it up the chain as he did? Sorry but that's a bit of a double standard there. You can't have it both ways.

And what about the AD, they knew as little as Paterno did and ARE the program. Why didn't the AD call the police or report it further up the chain the the University president or the chancellors to whom he reports?

Don't get me wrong, Paterno could probably have done more as could the AD and the GA, but hindsight is 20/20. The real scum here is Sandusky, not the people he fooled, so lets not lose sight of that. He abused those kids, his position, and he abused his friendships with people like Paterno.

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Penn State should be immediately handed the death penalty, permanently, for football. You can't let things like this happen on anyone's watch.

Don't know of you're serious, but I wouldn't have a problem with that. Too many people in charge turned a blind eye to child rape happening in their school. There's no moral reason that program should continue to exist.

You replied to willmorristrollbot. Think about it.

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Penn State should be immediately handed the death penalty, permanently, for football. You can't let things like this happen on anyone's watch.

Don't know of you're serious, but I wouldn't have a problem with that. Too many people in charge turned a blind eye to child rape happening in their school. There's no moral reason that program should continue to exist.

You replied to willmorristrollbot. Think about it.

Blind squirrel, nut, etc.

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Penn State should be immediately handed the death penalty, permanently, for football. You can't let things like this happen on anyone's watch.

Don't know of you're serious, but I wouldn't have a problem with that. Too many people in charge turned a blind eye to child rape happening in their school. There's no moral reason that program should continue to exist.

There is absolutely no justification for the death penalty for the football program. unless getting hit with 'lack of institutional control' constitutes the death penalty (i dont know if it does or not). Thats the only reason i could see it happening. This isnt an issue with the football program, its an issue with the university itself and the greater 'chain of command' that is required by STATE LAW in situations like these. Thats whats so disturbing about all of this.

As a Penn State student, i can say that the mood on and around campus today is extremely depressing and somber. Ive been keeping up with the majority of the information and im failing to see how Paterno is taking all of the heat for this. Me followed the system. The system failed. Sinple as that. Could he have done more? Probably. The man made a mistake. Believe it or not he isnt a saint, hes a human being. But the question of what kind of details the GA gave him still remains to be seen. He did not witness the crime first hand like the GA did so im not going to blame him for not reporting specific details if he didnt in fact know them. I think people need to stop jumping to conclusions, blaming this whole thing on Joe when the real criminals where sandusky, curly and shultz. I think the focus is being shifted to the wrong people who did what they needed to do (obligated by law) when put in their situations.

Why is no one talking about/ hating sandusky? he is in fact the real criminal here. Nevermind how the lives of those kids has been changed forever. Yeah this :censored: is nasty and it makes me sick to my stomach, especially being associated with the university and loving this football program so so much. what makes me even more upset ans sick is that Paterno is getting and most likely taking the blame, not only for sandusky, culry, shultz and others, but for the entire program and everyone associated with the university.

So basically id reserve my ultimate judgement of Paterno until all of the details come to light in this case. As it stands right now, paterno did what he was obligated to do (to a long time, tursted friend nontheless) by LAW. He couldve called the police, i guess. however, if i were him i would trust the university and the established chain of command to report and deal with the situation. Plus, its his job to take care of football, not babysit a retired pervert who was no longer on the staff. just my two cents.

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So basically id reserve my ultimate judgement of Paterno until all of the details come to light in this case. As it stands right now, paterno did what he was obligated to do (to a long time, tursted friend nontheless) by LAW. He couldve called the police, i guess. however, if i were him i would trust the university and the established chain of command to report and deal with the situation. Plus, its his job to take care of football, not babysit a retired pervert who was no longer on the staff. just my two cents.

Your writing does about as much for Penn State's image as Jerry Sandusky.

Allegedly, Sandusky was caught playing scrub-a-dub with two boys in the showers in '98. He retired in '99. The most graphic on-campus incident that we know of at this point in '02. Yet, in 2009, he was still permitted to host overnight camps for children at other schools in the Penn State system, and as recently as one week ago, no one saw any problem with him having unfettered access to facilities in Happy Valley, so long as he didn't have any boys on a leash with him.

That is how the established chain of command, Paterno included, dealt with the situation. And that is why the legal system is now, mercifully, involved.

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1320696492' post='1676982']

That and on top of the feeble old man angle which I agree with, think of yourself in that situation. Someone comes to you, some graduate assistant you don't know or haven't known long, and claims a friend of 30+ years is doing something this heinous... what would your reaction be? I don't know about you, but I'd be incredulous and not likely to believe it let alone do anything like calling the cops about it. In that regard the fact he even went to the AD is surprising in and of itself. And I sure as hell wouldn't call the cops on my friend on the word of someone who I don't know or trust based on their word alone. I think you see that too in Paterno's statement that, "IF this is true we were all fooled." I get the feeling he still can't believe it. It's easy to point fingers from outside as we all are, but put yourself in his shoes. You'd likely have reacted the same way. That is unless they did know more, but right now based on what we know assuming they knew anything more than the second hand report from 2002 would be jumping the gun.

I'll say again, the real person who should have acted here was the grad assistant. Why didn't THEY call the cops as the eyewitness in 2002?

1320697070' post='1676986']

The grad student did what he was supposed to - report it to an authority. Maybe he should have called the cops as well, but his moral responsibility to do do wasn't half as strong as Paterno's, who was an authority figure.

And I'm not buying the "old man" defense. Was he incapable of dialing 911? If he was aware enough to tell his AD, he was aware enough to enquire as to why no punishment was ever leveled against the pedophile.

1320697072' post='1676987']

Well, no. The grad assistant was likely young enough to know he needed additional guidance and direction. The authority figure to whom he reported should have satisfactorily handled it.

I hope I don't sound like I'm excusing Paterno's behavior, because I'm not. I'm trying to say that he shouldn't have been then and shouldn't be now considered the ultimate day-to-day authority in Penn State athletics. That's simply not his role.

However, as a human, regardless of age, he should have acted better and thus deserves what he gets.

FWIW, the grad asst was former QB and current receivers coach Mike McQuery.

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That and on top of the feeble old man angle which I agree with, think of yourself in that situation. Someone comes to you, some graduate assistant you don't know or haven't known long, and claims a friend of 30+ years is doing something this heinous... what would your reaction be? I don't know about you, but I'd be incredulous and not likely to believe it let alone do anything like calling the cops about it. In that regard the fact he even went to the AD is surprising in and of itself. And I sure as hell wouldn't call the cops on my friend on the word of someone who I don't know or trust based on their word alone. I think you see that too in Paterno's statement that, "IF this is true we were all fooled." I get the feeling he still can't believe it. It's easy to point fingers from outside as we all are, but put yourself in his shoes. You'd likely have reacted the same way. That is unless they did know more, but right now based on what we know assuming they knew anything more than the second hand report from 2002 would be jumping the gun.

I'll say again, the real person who should have acted here was the grad assistant. Why didn't THEY call the cops as the eyewitness in 2002?

This kind of goes along with the way I feel about it. Not excusing Paterno turning a blind eye, but there is definitely gotta be a big internal conflict he must've faced considering he was hearing this from a GA and had such a long relationship with Sandusky. I think that JoPa obviously made the wrong decision in hindsight, but I can at least see how this would be a confusing situation to handle for any human being. I think this is the end for JoPa as a coach, and I think he did the wrong thing, but I really have to hear more about this case and it's details before I completely BBQ Paterno. But if it turns out to be a full-scale Catholic church type cover up, then yes. Rip his rep to pieces.

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Well technically, isn't reporting up the chain of command what you're supposed to do? It gets back to what I posted - he did the "by the book" correct thing, so he's (at least legally) off the hook. However, while he technically went up the chain, ultimately he has more power and influence than those above him, so he should've gone to the authorities himself - or at least followed up with the AD.

I'm just wondering how you couldn't report that to the police department, which is what Paterno should have done.

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28 is old enough to call 911 and report a rape.

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Your writing does about as much for Penn State's image as Jerry Sandusky.

Allegedly, Sandusky was caught playing scrub-a-dub with two boys in the showers in '98. He retired in '99. The most graphic on-campus incident that we know of at this point in '02. Yet, in 2009, he was still permitted to host overnight camps for children at other schools in the Penn State system, and as recently as one week ago, no one saw any problem with him having unfettered access to facilities in Happy Valley, so long as he didn't have any boys on a leash with him.

That is how the established chain of command, Paterno included, dealt with the situation. And that is why the legal system is now, mercifully, involved.

The problem here is that none of these events occurred under the watch of Joe Paterno. (as of now) All the evidence that was presented to him was strictly hearsay (at this point). I do not condone the actions of anyone involved in this incident and thing could have and should have been handled in a better way. The fact is that all of the blame is being put on the wrong people. the real problem is with the system, not a single individual, paterno in particular. In fact you could argue that McQuery should have reported the incident himself.

basically, in terms of scale of guilt...

sandusky is a mountain

curly and shultz are the foothills of the mountain

paterno is a speed bump

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The problem is that Paterno looms larger than you're giving him credit for. He's not really a middleman on the chain of command. He's Joe Paterno! As if he needs to go "by the book" and report things to his superiors as if they're actually his superiors at all. It was his responsibility to stop enabling his friend and co-worker to rape boys and he didn't, not soon enough, at least. Most of all, it was McQueary's responsibility to do what we learn to do when we're little kids and call the cops.

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