88 replies to this topic

[patsox]

I'm going to give up littering too.

[CRichardson]

I'm giving up drinking alcohol. I don't have any really bad vices, per se, so I just picked something to stop for the 40 days. I'm not a heavy drinker by any means.

[speedy]

charger77, on February 25, 2012 - 17:52, said:

loogodude90, on February 25, 2012 - 07:57, said:

infrared41, on February 25, 2012 - 00:39, said:

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not knocking anyone or belittling their beliefs. With that in mind,  I've always thought if the best you can do is give up something like chocolate or Pepsi or whatever for Lent, it seems like it's almost better to not bother. My impression, as a non-catholic,  is that observing Lent means sacrificing something. Again, I mean no offense to those who participate, but giving up "Jujyfruits" or candy doesn't really seem like a sacrifice. My point I suppose is shouldn't observing Lent require something more meaningful than not eating a Snickers bar?

Agreed... seems like a cop-out.  Then again, people up religion all the time.  Not surprised.

charger77, on February 25, 2012 - 07:06, said:

Also, I am with Ice Cap on the mockery, its unnecessary and I can't imagine that it would be tolerated in other religious based threads.

I disagree - there seems to be a rather large number of Catholics on this board, and Catholics in general aren't really ostracized in our society.

If this were some type of thread dedicated to Ramadan, well, then... you could imagine what it would turn into, based on the anti-Muslim sentiment.

On that note, I'm refraining from being overly sensitive to politically powerful groups for Lent.

So because in your view Catholics are not bashed enough so its ok?

Also, good thing you can predict the future and know right away that an Islamic holiday thread would be bashes. Once again you had placed your self smack dab in the middle of not only the widely unpopular minority school of thought but also the one that seems to ignore facts, logic and common sense.

_________________________________________________________________________

Are you basically saying its ok to religion bash?

I wouldn't say it's okay to bash, because it's certainly not, but it's okay to question. Anytime a faith is questioned, even if someone wants to gain more knowledge about it, the one questioned usually jumps in a hole and claims religious freedom. If you want to practice in public expect to get some negative feedback. Welcome to life, that's how it works - with everything. I have no problem with any religion or anyone's beliefs, more power to you. The problem I have is most people of faith are rather close-minded to anyone else's beliefs if they are different. Now I'm not saying everyone is, but a good majority. If you want to practice religion in a public setting, go for it, just don't be appalled that there are people who won't agree with you.

Fake edit: "you" is a generalization, not directed at you -Dan

[charger77]

speedy, on February 26, 2012 - 15:05, said:

charger77, on February 25, 2012 - 17:52, said:

loogodude90, on February 25, 2012 - 07:57, said:

infrared41, on February 25, 2012 - 00:39, said:

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not knocking anyone or belittling their beliefs. With that in mind,  I've always thought if the best you can do is give up something like chocolate or Pepsi or whatever for Lent, it seems like it's almost better to not bother. My impression, as a non-catholic,  is that observing Lent means sacrificing something. Again, I mean no offense to those who participate, but giving up "Jujyfruits" or candy doesn't really seem like a sacrifice. My point I suppose is shouldn't observing Lent require something more meaningful than not eating a Snickers bar?

Agreed... seems like a cop-out.  Then again, people up religion all the time.  Not surprised.

charger77, on February 25, 2012 - 07:06, said:

Also, I am with Ice Cap on the mockery, its unnecessary and I can't imagine that it would be tolerated in other religious based threads.

I disagree - there seems to be a rather large number of Catholics on this board, and Catholics in general aren't really ostracized in our society.

If this were some type of thread dedicated to Ramadan, well, then... you could imagine what it would turn into, based on the anti-Muslim sentiment.

On that note, I'm refraining from being overly sensitive to politically powerful groups for Lent.

So because in your view Catholics are not bashed enough so its ok?

Also, good thing you can predict the future and know right away that an Islamic holiday thread would be bashes. Once again you had placed your self smack dab in the middle of not only the widely unpopular minority school of thought but also the one that seems to ignore facts, logic and common sense.

_________________________________________________________________________

Are you basically saying its ok to religion bash?

I wouldn't say it's okay to bash, because it's certainly not, but it's okay to question. Anytime a faith is questioned, even if someone wants to gain more knowledge about it, the one questioned usually jumps in a hole and claims religious freedom. If you want to practice in public expect to get some negative feedback. Welcome to life, that's how it works - with everything. I have no problem with any religion or anyone's beliefs, more power to you. The problem I have is most people of faith are rather close-minded to anyone else's beliefs if they are different. Now I'm not saying everyone is, but a good majority. If you want to practice religion in a public setting, go for it, just don't be appalled that there are people who won't agree with you.

Fake edit: "you" is a generalization, not directed at you -Dan

Speedy, I agree with you for the most part. However, the comments Ice Cap and I were addressing were not about questions, they were about mockery.

Yes, people may not agree with one's religious views. Hell, Cap is Jewish and I am Catholic however, our responses were not due to religious doctrine. Our comments were specific to looogodud asking why in his opinion its ok bash Christianity and Judaism (which he has done on numerous occasions) yet if one were to bash an Islamic thread (which to my knowledge nobody has) he would be up in arms. If one religion is safe from mockery in the CCSLC, then they all are, and vice versa.

Honestly, I couldn't care less if people here agree or disagree with my religious views and you are right, people are entitled to make any snarky, ignorant or belittling comment that they choose to make. But just because they can, it doesn't mean they should. Additionally, just because somebody has the "right" to mock the religions of fellow CCSLCers, people like Ice Cap and myself have the "right" to call them out on it.

[BayouJim]

I'm a recovering Catholic, but for some reason, Lent is still something I follow.  I realize that if I'm going to hell, it's not going to be because I decided to eat meat on Fridays during Lent, but I still follow that tradition.  I've decided to give up pop this year as I did last year.  I'm also trying to no surround myself with negative people and just trying to be an overall better person.

[Magnus]

BayouJim, on February 26, 2012 - 15:51, said:

I'm a recovering Catholic, but for some reason, Lent is still something I follow.  I realize that if I'm going to hell, it's not going to be because I decided to eat meat on Fridays during Lent, but I still follow that tradition.  I've decided to give up pop this year as I did last year.  I'm also trying to no surround myself with negative people and just trying to be an overall better person.

That makes it sound like you're equating following the Catholic doctrine to alcoholism. I think those two things need to be mutually exclusive.
A belief system isn't necessarily bad - it's the fanatics that make things bad.

[charger77]

Magnus, on February 26, 2012 - 16:21, said:

BayouJim, on February 26, 2012 - 15:51, said:

I'm a recovering Catholic, but for some reason, Lent is still something I follow.  I realize that if I'm going to hell, it's not going to be because I decided to eat meat on Fridays during Lent, but I still follow that tradition.  I've decided to give up pop this year as I did last year.  I'm also trying to no surround myself with negative people and just trying to be an overall better person.

That makes it sound like you're equating following the Catholic doctrine to alcoholism. I think those two things need to be mutually exclusive.
A belief system isn't necessarily bad - it's the fanatics that make things bad.

QFT

[Don]

"So youre saying have beliefs is a bad thing?"

"I just think its better to have ideas. You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier"

[BayouJim]

Magnus, on February 26, 2012 - 16:21, said:

BayouJim, on February 26, 2012 - 15:51, said:

I'm a recovering Catholic, but for some reason, Lent is still something I follow.  I realize that if I'm going to hell, it's not going to be because I decided to eat meat on Fridays during Lent, but I still follow that tradition.  I've decided to give up pop this year as I did last year.  I'm also trying to no surround myself with negative people and just trying to be an overall better person.

That makes it sound like you're equating following the Catholic doctrine to alcoholism. I think those two things need to be mutually exclusive.
A belief system isn't necessarily bad - it's the fanatics that make things bad.

I was catholic by birth, not by choice.  I went to private school for 9 years and have seen the worse that people in the religion have to offer and how contradictory most of them are.  The term "recovering catholic" isn't something that I just coined, it's a term that's used all around.  I'm all for religion and believing in it and my faith is mostly catholic based, however there's many things I don't agree with.

I think the moment I was turned off was in 6th grade sitting in church and the priest was up at the altar saying everyone needed to donate, and I use donate loosely since people were actually being forced, so the church could make 50,000 dollars and bring their idea of putting a traffic light in front of the church to the table at city hall.  Even as a 12 year old kid, I realized what a scam that was.

You're right, a belief system isn't bad, but it's the fanatics that ruin the experience for everyone.

[Saintsfan]

loogodude90, on February 25, 2012 - 07:57, said:

infrared41, on February 25, 2012 - 00:39, said:

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not knocking anyone or belittling their beliefs. With that in mind,  I've always thought if the best you can do is give up something like chocolate or Pepsi or whatever for Lent, it seems like it's almost better to not bother. My impression, as a non-catholic,  is that observing Lent means sacrificing something. Again, I mean no offense to those who participate, but giving up "Jujyfruits" or candy doesn't really seem like a sacrifice. My point I suppose is shouldn't observing Lent require something more meaningful than not eating a Snickers bar?

Agreed... seems like a cop-out.  Then again, people up religion all the time.  Not surprised.

It can be useful as an introduction to the concept of Lent to invite children to give up something like sweets, or cake or whatever. However an adult Catholic should have moved on to more meaningful sacrifice, as their faith matures and develops. Also it should form part of a regimen of almsgiving and prayer as well, in order to prepare for the celebration of Easter. Also giving up something isn't mandatory. Someone pointed out the option of trying to do something extra, which is equally valid. But it should also be part of a process of self improvement, there is no point cutting out an indulgence, such as a snickers bar, and then going back to over indulging as soon as Easter arrives.

[charger77]

Saintsfan, on February 26, 2012 - 16:48, said:

loogodude90, on February 25, 2012 - 07:57, said:

infrared41, on February 25, 2012 - 00:39, said:

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not knocking anyone or belittling their beliefs. With that in mind,  I've always thought if the best you can do is give up something like chocolate or Pepsi or whatever for Lent, it seems like it's almost better to not bother. My impression, as a non-catholic,  is that observing Lent means sacrificing something. Again, I mean no offense to those who participate, but giving up "Jujyfruits" or candy doesn't really seem like a sacrifice. My point I suppose is shouldn't observing Lent require something more meaningful than not eating a Snickers bar?

Agreed... seems like a cop-out.  Then again, people up religion all the time.  Not surprised.

It can be useful as an introduction to the concept of Lent to invite children to give up something like sweets, or cake or whatever. However an adult Catholic should have moved on to more meaningful sacrifice, as their faith matures and develops. Also it should form part of a regimen of almsgiving and prayer as well, in order to prepare for the celebration of Easter. Also giving up something isn't mandatory. Someone pointed out the option of trying to do something extra, which is equally valid. But it should also be part of a process of self improvement, there is no point cutting out an indulgence, such as a snickers bar, and then going back to over indulging as soon as Easter arrives.

Once again... exactly.

[Ice_Cap]

speedy, on February 26, 2012 - 15:05, said:

I wouldn't say it's okay to bash, because it's certainly not, but it's okay to question. Anytime a faith is questioned, even if someone wants to gain more knowledge about it, the one questioned usually jumps in a hole and claims religious freedom.

The thing with religion is that so many people THINK they know what they're talking about when they rarely do. So they enter a discussion about religion or religions with a Wikipedia-level of understanding of a centuries-old beliefs system and make grand proclamations as if they know what the hell they're talking about. That's more of a failing of the educational system and the prevalence of popular history over actual history (Galileo being persecuted by an evil Catholic Church dedicated to keeping people stupid is a better story then what actually happened, so that's what people know, etc...), but still. People, by and large, tend to be uneducated on topics concerning faiths they don't practice or were raised in.
No one's going to think less of you if you're unfamiliar with the tenants and history of a belief system you weren't raised in. So if you (as you said, a general "you") are unsure about something that doesn't apply to you, just fricken ask. speedy, you claim that when faith is questioned, even by those simply seeking knowledge or clarification, the faithful retreat into a ball and act in a hostile manner. I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I welcome it if someone unfamiliar with my faith questions me about it because they wish to know more about it or why we do this or that. Not that long ago Buc asked me why a lot of Jews type G-d instead of spelling out the name of the Lord. He was just looking to understand. I explained. All good. I would rather more people ask and question me about my faith rather then assume they know what they're talking about when they don't, and then make grand, moronic statements fuelled by their ignorance.  

Look at the conversation between loogodude and Saintsfan. loogodude has displayed his lack of knowledge of the Christian holiday of Lent. He could have just asked "hey, I don't get why you do this, can a Christian explain it to me?" Instead he chose to mock and degrade it because he assumed that, despite his clear lack of knowledge, he knew what he was talking about.
Either way he got a rather calm response from a Christian explaining how the holiday works, but I have to imagine the whole decorum of the discussion would have been more civil had he simply just asked instead of being an intolerant, uneducated prick about it.

Quote

If you want to practice in public expect to get some negative feedback. Welcome to life, that's how it works - with everything.

Not so. There have been plenty of threads over the years here dedicated to celebrating my faith. I've started my fair share of them. They're rather harmless, just wishing a happy Hanukkah or Rosh Hashanah. Not all that different from the purposes of this thread actually. Now usually with threads directed towards Jewish holidays the people posting are either Jews who want to wish each other a happy holiday or non-Jews who want to wish their Jewish board members a happy holiday. Then the thread sinks into oblivion, no harm no foul. Yet a Christian seems unable to do the same thing without people claiming they have the "right" to openly question their beliefs, often to the point of mockery. Why is that? Why am I free to post a thread celebrating Passover without it being a means for others to attack my faith while a Christian can't start a thread celebrating Lent without it becoming just that? Is it because Christianity is "mainstream," and the dominant religion? So it becomes ok to mock and degrade?
Somehow that doesn't seem right to me.

Quote

I have no problem with any religion or anyone's beliefs, more power to you. The problem I have is most people of faith are rather close-minded to anyone else's beliefs if they are different.

Ultimately I believe we would all be in a better off if we just took time to understand and respect the beliefs of others, even if we don't agree with them. Asking an atheist to be respectful of a Christian's observation of Lent isn't a demand that they become a Christian. Just like no one's asking a Christian to stop believing in G-d in order to understand and respect an atheist's lack of belief. It's just a simple plea to common decency, that you not use a public reflection of faith to mock or degrade. It all just comes down to respect. Respect the personal beliefs of your fellow man. Ask if you're curious, and don't push your beliefs onto others.

If simply being asked to show a little human decency and not talk down to someone who doesn't share your personal belief system is being "Ice Capped" then alright. There are worse sentiments to be associated with.

[charger77]

Ice_Cap, on February 26, 2012 - 16:51, said:

A whole lotta common sense that should earn Ice Cap PotD honours.

[BigBubba]

charger77, on February 26, 2012 - 16:58, said:

Ice_Cap, on February 26, 2012 - 16:51, said:

A whole lotta common sense that should earn Ice Cap PotD honours.

+1

Adding to what he said, a few months ago, oaklandhusker brought up Kosher foods. I asked him if they were for all Jews or just the strict prastising (Canadian English people) ones as well if that was what "Orthodox Jews" were. He answered, I was informed. No disrespect, just polite explanation.

[patsox]

Neverrr thought this thread would be so controversial...

[RedSox44]

patsox, on February 26, 2012 - 18:24, said:

Neverrr thought this thread would be so controversial...

Bringing up religion, or politics, on the Internet will always, always lead to a bar fight. Always.

[CS85]

RedSox44, on February 26, 2012 - 18:25, said:

patsox, on February 26, 2012 - 18:24, said:

Neverrr thought this thread would be so controversial...

Bringing up religion, or politics, on the Internet will always, always lead to a bar fight. Always.

Quoted for truth.

[Magnus]

BayouJim, on February 26, 2012 - 16:36, said:

I ... was in 6th grade sitting in church and the priest was up at the altar saying everyone needed to donate,  and I use donate loosely since people were actually being forced, so  the church could make 50,000 dollars and bring their idea of putting a  traffic light in front of the church to the table at city hall.  Even as  a 12 year old kid, I realized what a scam that was.

You're right, a belief system isn't bad, but it's the fanatics that ruin the experience for everyone.

Yeah, that's coercion, not a plea for donations.

Cap, I want to second your PotD nomination.

[BigBubba]

Ice_Cap, on February 26, 2012 - 16:51, said:

speedy, on February 26, 2012 - 15:05, said:

I wouldn't say it's okay to bash, because it's certainly not, but it's okay to question. Anytime a faith is questioned, even if someone wants to gain more knowledge about it, the one questioned usually jumps in a hole and claims religious freedom.

The thing with religion is that so many people THINK they know what they're talking about when they rarely do. So they enter a discussion about religion or religions with a Wikipedia-level of understanding of a centuries-old beliefs system and make grand proclamations as if they know what the hell they're talking about. That's more of a failing of the educational system and the prevalence of popular history over actual history (Galileo being persecuted by an evil Catholic Church dedicated to keeping people stupid is a better story then what actually happened, so that's what people know, etc...), but still. People, by and large, tend to be uneducated on topics concerning faiths they don't practice or were raised in.
No one's going to think less of you if you're unfamiliar with the tenants and history of a belief system you weren't raised in. So if you (as you said, a general "you") are unsure about something that doesn't apply to you, just fricken ask. speedy, you claim that when faith is questioned, even by those simply seeking knowledge or clarification, the faithful retreat into a ball and act in a hostile manner. I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I welcome it if someone unfamiliar with my faith questions me about it because they wish to know more about it or why we do this or that. Not that long ago Buc asked me why a lot of Jews type G-d instead of spelling out the name of the Lord. He was just looking to understand. I explained. All good. I would rather more people ask and question me about my faith rather then assume they know what they're talking about when they don't, and then make grand, moronic statements fuelled by their ignorance.  

Look at the conversation between loogodude and Saintsfan. loogodude has displayed his lack of knowledge of the Christian holiday of Lent. He could have just asked "hey, I don't get why you do this, can a Christian explain it to me?" Instead he chose to mock and degrade it because he assumed that, despite his clear lack of knowledge, he knew what he was talking about.
Either way he got a rather calm response from a Christian explaining how the holiday works, but I have to imagine the whole decorum of the discussion would have been more civil had he simply just asked instead of being an intolerant, uneducated prick about it.

Quote

If you want to practice in public expect to get some negative feedback. Welcome to life, that's how it works - with everything.

Not so. There have been plenty of threads over the years here dedicated to celebrating my faith. I've started my fair share of them. They're rather harmless, just wishing a happy Hanukkah or Rosh Hashanah. Not all that different from the purposes of this thread actually. Now usually with threads directed towards Jewish holidays the people posting are either Jews who want to wish each other a happy holiday or non-Jews who want to wish their Jewish board members a happy holiday. Then the thread sinks into oblivion, no harm no foul. Yet a Christian seems unable to do the same thing without people claiming they have the "right" to openly question their beliefs, often to the point of mockery. Why is that? Why am I free to post a thread celebrating Passover without it being a means for others to attack my faith while a Christian can't start a thread celebrating Lent without it becoming just that? Is it because Christianity is "mainstream," and the dominant religion? So it becomes ok to mock and degrade?
Somehow that doesn't seem right to me.

Quote

I have no problem with any religion or anyone's beliefs, more power to you. The problem I have is most people of faith are rather close-minded to anyone else's beliefs if they are different.

Ultimately I believe we would all be in a better off if we just took time to understand and respect the beliefs of others, even if we don't agree with them. Asking an atheist to be respectful of a Christian's observation of Lent isn't a demand that they become a Christian. Just like no one's asking a Christian to stop believing in G-d in order to understand and respect an atheist's lack of belief. It's just a simple plea to common decency, that you not use a public reflection of faith to mock or degrade. It all just comes down to respect. Respect the personal beliefs of your fellow man. Ask if you're curious, and don't push your beliefs onto others.

If simply being asked to show a little human decency and not talk down to someone who doesn't share your personal belief system is being "Ice Capped" then alright. There are worse sentiments to be associated with.

Magnus, on February 26, 2012 - 19:52, said:

BayouJim, on February 26, 2012 - 16:36, said:

I ... was in 6th grade sitting in church and the priest was up at the altar saying everyone needed to donate,  and I use donate loosely since people were actually being forced, so  the church could make 50,000 dollars and bring their idea of putting a  traffic light in front of the church to the table at city hall.  Even as  a 12 year old kid, I realized what a scam that was.

You're right, a belief system isn't bad, but it's the fanatics that ruin the experience for everyone.

Yeah, that's coercion, not a plea for donations.

Cap, I want to second your PotD nomination.

Amen. Ice_Cap, I guess this is yours then:

[dorshak]

Bravo Ice_Cap. Bravo.