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Ozzie Guillen


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In fairness to Guillen the word he is quoted as using is 'respectable' not admirable. (Fair enough that may not make a lot of difference to some people, but its a different word, with a different sense. And many people may not respect Castro for remaining in power, and alive.)

My difficulty is still that he has was suspended for those comments. I appreciate that the Marlins have acted within their rights, but even still in my view this is the statement the Miami Marlins should have put out

The Miami Marlins make it clear that the comments of their manager, Ozzie Guillen, with respect to his respect for the former Cuban dictator, Fidel Castro in no way represent the views of the Miami Marlins organisation. We recognise the offense that those comments

will have caused many in the state of Florida and further afield, and are dealing with the incident internally. We resepct Mr Guillen's right to air his views publically, and note that if he had made similar comments in Cuba about an enemy of the state he would not be dealt with as justly.

If you hire Guillen you know you are going to have to deal with this kind of thing every once in a while. Are you going to suspend him every time he embarrasses your organisation? Might as well not have employed him in the first place if you are.

Again, not a freedom of speech issue.

He can say what he wants about baseball-specific matters, but when he goes into political

matters that offend and alienate your very own fanbase, then yes he should be reprimanded.

Respectfully, I think you have the wrong way around. When he isn't talking about baseball, he should be able to say what he wants. The Marlins have every right to distance themselves from non baseball comments he makes, but when he talks baseball he is a Marlins employee, so they have every right to take whatever course of action they choose then.

He's a Marlins employee if he talks baseball or not. Not sure why you think everything changes once he leaves the stadium, especially when he's talking to the press.

Because he is a private citizen and as such is entitled to an opinion, and to air that opinion should he choose to.

That's not really true. A private citizen gives up his license to a private opinion once he agrees to go on the record with the media. A military general can say whatever he wants to his wife about the President in the living room, but he can't say anything bad about the commander-in-chief when he's being recorded.

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Probably because no one thought he'd be dumb enough to say a kind word about Fidel Castro in south Florida.

Lets say a manager of the New York Yankees, a team with a large Jewish fanbase, said he respected the way Hitler could get a crowd on his side. The manager could even clarify later in interviews that he didn't support Hitler's policies, just that he respected his public speaking ability.

Was he in the wrong? If you say yes, he's in the wrong then why? How is that hypothetical scenario different from what happened with Ozzie?

But even still the Marlins knew what they were getting when they appointed Guillen.

While Ozzie may be a drunk who says things without thinking, I don't see how that should give him a pass on stuff like this. Do we just shrug our shoulders and fail to hold people accountable when they say stupid things now?

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That's not really true. A private citizen gives up his license to a private opinion once he agrees to go on the record with the media. A military general can say whatever he wants to his wife about the President in the living room, but he can't say anything bad about the commander-in-chief when he's being recorded.

Well the two aren't really the same. A military general bad mouthing a President is a military general bad mouthing his boss. Guillen didn't bad mouth the Marlins ownership. A military general wouldn't be suspended for saying 'I respect [insert name of enemy].' Plenty of politicians have bad mouthed the leaders of their parties, when the mood has suited!

But again Guillen is an employee of a private business. I disagree that he forfeits his right to be a private citizen when he speaks to the press. He's not been employed because of his views about Castro. And if anyone thinks Guillen was employed specifically to draw in Cuban American fans to the Marlins, they really need to consider how diverse the Latino population is. Is a Venezualan going to appeal to Cuban Americans?

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But again Guillen is an employee of a private business. I disagree that he forfeits his right to be a private citizen when he speaks to the press.

No one is saying he forfeited the right to air his personal beliefs or opinions. This isn't about his rights as a citizen. He wasn't arrested or otherwise reprimanded by the government of the United States for saying nice things about Fidel Castro. His rights as a private citizen were not violated. So stop pretending they were.

He was punished by his employer for his remarks, which is totally fine, legal, and does not constitute a violation of his rights in way, shape, or form.

He's not been employed because of his views about Castro. And if anyone thinks Guillen was employed specifically to draw in Cuban American fans to the Marlins, they really need to consider how diverse the Latino population is. Is a Venezualan going to appeal to Cuban Americans?

If you think Marlins management made a mistake in that department, bring it up with them. It's not really the issue.

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Probably because no one thought he'd be dumb enough to say a kind word about Fidel Castro in south Florida.

Lets say a manager of the New York Yankees, a team with a large Jewish fanbase, said he respected the way Hitler could get a crowd on his side. The manager could even clarify later in interviews that he didn't support Hitler's policies, just that he respected his public speaking ability.

Was he in the wrong? If you say yes, he's in the wrong then why? How is that hypothetical scenario different from what happened with Ozzie?

But even still the Marlins knew what they were getting when they appointed Guillen.

While Ozzie may be a drunk who says things without thinking, I don't see how that should give him a pass on stuff like this. Do we just shrug our shoulders and fail to hold people accountable when they say stupid things now?

If you appoint someone knowing they have a record of saying stupid/controversial things, then you have to take some responsibility when they say a stupid/controversial thing.

On the Yankees comparisson, are Yankees fans going to care what their manager says if the team is winning? I think it would be a stupid thing to say, partly because it would make it easier for the fans to turn on the manager over a bad string of results. And that's the point, and it's one good sports organisations recognise. For fans, it's all about the results. You supply a winning team, you can say or do what you like. If the Marlins have a good year, noone will care what Guillen says about Castro or anyone else. If they tank, that's why he would get shown the door.

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If you think Marlins management made a mistake in that department, bring it up with them. It's not really the issue.

Actually in a lot of ways I think it's entirely the issue. It's about ham fisted attempts by the management of the Marlins to appeal to a potential fan base, on one hand by appointing a Latino, and then over reacting when he says something they weren't quite expecting, because they don't really understand the diverse nature of the latino population in the US.

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If you think Marlins management made a mistake in that department, bring it up with them. It's not really the issue.

Actually in a lot of ways I think it's entirely the issue. It's about ham fisted attempts by the management of the Marlins to appeal to a potential fan base, on one hand by appointing a Latino, and then over reacting when he says something they weren't quite expecting, because they don't really understand the diverse nature of the latino population in the US.

Regardless of how well the Marlins thought the plan out, they hired him to bring in Cuban American fans. He knew this, and he should have known to keep his mouth shut when it came to Castro.

You say the Marlins hold some responsibility for Ozzie's comments? Maybe, but only part of the blame. At the end of the day idiots who say stupid things should not be given a free pass just because they're well known to be idiotic. All of this "well that's just Ozzie being Ozzie" talk bugs me because it comes off as a giant exercise in deflecting personal responsibility from the man.

Saying something stupid means you have to pay the consequences. Ozzie did though his five game suspension. I don't see the issue with that chain of events.

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If you think Marlins management made a mistake in that department, bring it up with them. It's not really the issue.

Actually in a lot of ways I think it's entirely the issue. It's about ham fisted attempts by the management of the Marlins to appeal to a potential fan base, on one hand by appointing a Latino, and then over reacting when he says something they weren't quite expecting, because they don't really understand the diverse nature of the latino population in the US.

Regardless of how well the Marlins thought the plan out, they hired him to bring in Cuban American fans. He knew this, and he should have known to keep his mouth shut when it came to Castro.

You say the Marlins hold some responsibility for Ozzie's comments? Maybe, but only part of the blame. At the end of the day idiots who say stupid things should not be given a free pass just because they're well known to be idiotic. All of this "well that's just Ozzie being Ozzie" talk bugs me because it comes off as a giant exercise in deflecting personal responsibility from the man.

Saying something stupid means you have to pay the consequences. Ozzie did though his five game suspension. I don't see the issue with that chain of events.

I didn't mean to say that the Marlins should take some responsibility for Guillen's comments, but rather that they should take some responsibility for the offence caused by his comments. (My apologies for any confusion!) And really thats my point. Appoint a guy like Guillen, you have to deal with a guy like Guillen. (I should point out that I am not saying that Marlins didn't have the right to suspend Guillen, rather that they shouldn't have, different things!)

Here is what the Chicagoist wrote on Guillen's appointment by the Marlins

While Loria has known Guillen for 20 years and seems ecstatic to have Ozzie managing his club, we're curious to see how well he handles Ozzie's inevitable firestorms. Similarly strong willed Joe Girardi only lasted one year in Miami despite of winning NL Manager of the Year. If Loria and Girardi couldn't co-exist, how does he expect to do so with Ozzie?

linkarooni

Loria can't say he couldn't see a firestorm coming with Guillen. He has to take some responsibility and in my view its somewhat irresponsible of him to suspend Guillen over somewhat typically Guillenesque behaviour.

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And I fail to see how this would breach that, or indeed have an adverse affect on the Marlins business. Is their any evidence that either fans or sponsors were going to boycott the Marlins on the back of Guillen's comments?

OK, now I'm positive you do this :censored: just to be contrary. The Marlins built the new ballpark in "Little Havana." As of 2008, nearly 800,000 Cubans live in the Miami-Dade area. (For the record, that 800,000 is more than the entire population of baseball cities like Milwaukee or Cincinnati.) Of the latino population in Miami-Dade, 54% are considered "Cuban." The Marlins have made it abundantly clear that they are targeting that group.

Do you really think that Marlins management has no reason to be concerned about the affect Guillen's comments might have on "Marlins business? No one can possibly be that dense. You spout this nonsense just because you like to argue.

Again, is there any actual evidence that the Marlins business was going to be adversely affected by Guillen's comments? And I don't mean protests, I mean boycotts by either fans or sponsors? Because I don't see how anyone with any sense can expect Guillen's comments to have any effect whatsoever, other than to make a few eyes roll, and for there to be some faux outrage from a group that loves a bit of faux outrage every once in a while.

Really are people going to stop watching a baseball team because it's manager made some stupid comments? Because if people did stop watching sports because the protagonists where prone to foot in mouth disease, sports would be played out to empty stadiums.

The Marlins are a multimillion dollar business. Would you be willing to roll the dice that his comments won't affect business? (No need to bother with a reply. I already know your answer.)

 

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You guys keep acting as if Little Havana is an integral part of the Marlins financial stability. The Hispanic community? Sure, but not specifically Little Havana.

They are located IN Little Havana. You don't think that's gonna have any effect on things? Seriously? Miami is greatly a Cuban-American city. Saying "I love Castro", which by the way Saintsfan is what he opened with and is even far worse than "admirable", is gonna have serious repercussions throughout the city.

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And I fail to see how this would breach that, or indeed have an adverse affect on the Marlins business. Is their any evidence that either fans or sponsors were going to boycott the Marlins on the back of Guillen's comments?

OK, now I'm positive you do this :censored: just to be contrary. The Marlins built the new ballpark in "Little Havana." As of 2008, nearly 800,000 Cubans live in the Miami-Dade area. (For the record, that 800,000 is more than the entire population of baseball cities like Milwaukee or Cincinnati.) Of the latino population in Miami-Dade, 54% are considered "Cuban." The Marlins have made it abundantly clear that they are targeting that group.

Do you really think that Marlins management has no reason to be concerned about the affect Guillen's comments might have on "Marlins business? No one can possibly be that dense. You spout this nonsense just because you like to argue.

Again, is there any actual evidence that the Marlins business was going to be adversely affected by Guillen's comments? And I don't mean protests, I mean boycotts by either fans or sponsors? Because I don't see how anyone with any sense can expect Guillen's comments to have any effect whatsoever, other than to make a few eyes roll, and for there to be some faux outrage from a group that loves a bit of faux outrage every once in a while.

Really are people going to stop watching a baseball team because it's manager made some stupid comments? Because if people did stop watching sports because the protagonists where prone to foot in mouth disease, sports would be played out to empty stadiums.

The Marlins are a multimillion dollar business. Would you be willing to roll the dice that his comments won't affect business? (No need to bother with a reply. I already know your answer.) The lengths to which you will go just to be contrary are...wait for it...admirable astounding.

So there is no evidence then!

And multi billion dollar businesses take gambles all the time, especially sporting ones. The Marlins just took one by rebranding. And another in appointing a manager. Teams relocate, they sign players to huge contracts.

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You guys keep acting as if Little Havana is an integral part of the Marlins financial stability. The Hispanic community? Sure, but not specifically Little Havana.

They are located IN Little Havana. You don't think that's gonna have any effect on things? Seriously? Miami is greatly a Cuban-American city. Saying "I love Castro", which by the way Saintsfan is what he opened with and is even far worse than "admirable", is gonna have serious repercussions throughout the city.

They're not located in Little Havana because they want to "tap that market," right? You realize how poor Little Havana is, right? While they might be "their" team, they're not contributing to the overall financials.

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That's not really true. A private citizen gives up his license to a private opinion once he agrees to go on the record with the media. A military general can say whatever he wants to his wife about the President in the living room, but he can't say anything bad about the commander-in-chief when he's being recorded.

Well the two aren't really the same. A military general bad mouthing a President is a military general bad mouthing his boss. Guillen didn't bad mouth the Marlins ownership. A military general wouldn't be suspended for saying 'I respect [insert name of enemy].' Plenty of politicians have bad mouthed the leaders of their parties, when the mood has suited!

Trying to find quotes of military generals saying they love and admire Osama Bin Laden...

Nope. Can't find any. Weird, right?

Smart is believing half of what you hear. Genius is knowing which half.

 

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You guys keep acting as if Little Havana is an integral part of the Marlins financial stability. The Hispanic community? Sure, but not specifically Little Havana.

They are located IN Little Havana. You don't think that's gonna have any effect on things? Seriously? Miami is greatly a Cuban-American city. Saying "I love Castro", which by the way Saintsfan is what he opened with and is even far worse than "admirable", is gonna have serious repercussions throughout the city.

They're not located in Little Havana because they want to "tap that market," right? You realize how poor Little Havana is, right? While they might be "their" team, they're not contributing to the overall financials.

So a big "F--- You!" to the community you're located in? That's a great business model right there. Saying I Love Castro is just not something that flies in Miami, period.

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You guys keep acting as if Little Havana is an integral part of the Marlins financial stability. The Hispanic community? Sure, but not specifically Little Havana.

They are located IN Little Havana. You don't think that's gonna have any effect on things? Seriously? Miami is greatly a Cuban-American city. Saying "I love Castro", which by the way Saintsfan is what he opened with and is even far worse than "admirable", is

gonna have serious repercussions throughout the city.

They're not located in Little Havana because they want to "tap that market," right? You

realize how poor Little Havana is, right? While they might be "their" team, they're not contributing to the overall financials.

Because TV ratings have nothing to do with a team's financials...

Smart is believing half of what you hear. Genius is knowing which half.

 

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You guys keep acting as if Little Havana is an integral part of the Marlins financial stability. The Hispanic community? Sure, but not specifically Little Havana.

They are located IN Little Havana. You don't think that's gonna have any effect on things? Seriously? Miami is greatly a Cuban-American city. Saying "I love Castro", which by the way Saintsfan is what he opened with and is even far worse than "admirable", is gonna have serious repercussions throughout the city.

They're not located in Little Havana because they want to "tap that market," right? You realize how poor Little Havana is, right? While they might be "their" team, they're not contributing to the overall financials.

They may not be season ticket holders but they may buy the occassional hat/t-shirt/etc...

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The Marlins are a multimillion dollar business. Would you be willing to roll the dice that his comments won't affect business? (No need to bother with a reply. I already know your answer.)

So there is no evidence then!

And multi billion dollar businesses take gambles all the time, especially sporting ones. The Marlins just took one by rebranding. And another in appointing a manager. Teams relocate, they sign players to huge contracts.

We don't know if there's any evidence yet. It's been a week. The sample size is too small. Ask me again on June 1st.

 

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Actually, there have been protests and as far as boycotts or whatever, they haven't played at home since it happened so how could you say "there's no evidence"? Plus the Marlins didn't wait long to hand down the punishment. He apologized, admitted what he said was wrong and they announced the suspension, all rather quickly after the incident. That quick turnaround will probably help smooth things over a bit as it showed they weren't gonna stand for it, but also that they believe Guillen was truly sorry and deserved a second chance. If this was to happen, the earlier it did the better. He's still new to the team and they're gonna give him a break more so now than they would if it had been later in the season or next year.

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Actually, there have been protests and as far as boycotts or whatever, they haven't played at home since it happened so how could you say "there's no evidence"? Plus the Marlins didn't wait long to hand down the punishment. He apologized, admitted what he said was wrong and they announced the suspension, all rather quickly after the incident. That quick turnaround will probably help smooth things over a bit as it showed they weren't gonna stand for it, but also that they believe Guillen was truly sorry and deserved a second chance. If this was to happen, the earlier it did the better. He's still new to the team and they're gonna give him a break more so now than they would if it had been later in the season or next year.

Protests don't equal a threat to the business.

And actually I would suggest a rebrand is a bigger threat to a sports business than a tamping down of a minor media controversy. Guillen's comments will be forgotten pretty quickly, especially if the Marlins perform. And as such suspending Guillen for a couple a few games, with the resultant disriluption to the team, may yet prove a bigger threat to the business than Guillen's comments were.

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