Mizzou's Michael Sam comes out

[Raysfan12]

Here's my stab at this (hopefully I try to find common ground and not offend anyone) I think the reason Dungy did say these comments is because Sam is the first openly gay player to be drafted and the potential media circus from his drafting bring could be distracting. Now if Sam wasn't the only openly gay player then Dungy wouldn't said those comments in the first place. I compare Michael Sam to a car (just saying); If he can handle his distractions off the field and become a great player in the NFL, then GM's might start to overlook someone's sexual orientation in the future (which is a good thing for equality). If he struggles in the NFL and fails to live up to the hype (I hope not though), then it might reinforce what GM's have said about Sam in the future. I respect Dungy as a coach and understand the context of his comments, but this is one thing that he shouldn't have said in the way he presented them.

[IceCap]

If Michael Sam's a bust (can you really be considered a bust if you're taken in the seventh round?) then it's because Michael Sam lacked the size, speed, and/or skill to compete at the NFL level. It's not going to be because his sexual orientation made him a poor football player.

[Raysfan12]

If Michael Sam's a bust (can you really be considered a bust if you're taken in the seventh round?) then it's because Michael Sam lacked the size, speed, and/or skill to compete at the NFL level. It's not going to be because his sexual orientation made him a poor football player.

You're right about that.

[rams80]

We still have a long way to go, but at least open bigotry isn't acceptable any more.

Sure it is. Bigotry isn't a one-way road.

Bigotry exists because it isn't possible to know and understand every single viewpoint. When someone disagrees, we label them or shame them and make them feel inferior. That's bigotry. Happens to everyone.

That's a particularly weak straw man.

Nobody is saying that conservatives don't have the right to seek employment in any job they are qualified for. Nobody is saying that businesses should be able to fire conservatives just because they're conservatives. Nobody is saying that conservatives should not be allowed to marry or adopt. Until that point, pretending that conservatives are somehow the true victims here is both sad and laughable.

No it's not. Open your eyes. I work in a place where most conservatives are looked down upon as stupid, unsophisticated, and weird. Trust me...that bigotry exists.

Let me know what you think of the Tea Party and the Religious Right. Do you agree with their views? Do you think those people are smart? Are they stupid and wrong and weird and uneducated? Do you cringe when "Teabagger" is used as a description?

Then we'll talk.

Nothing more annoying than someone who is igonorant and/or terrified of his own bigotry. The PC Police can be quite an insidious force.

I don't think they're dumb. I think a lot of them are willfully ignorant...particularly about how their own beliefs and traditions came to be formed.

There are two big lies about modern Christianity. 1) The tenets and doctrines of the faith have been permanent and unchangeable since the time of Jesus and the Apostles and 2) Everything's divinely inspired. Point 1) is just flat out laughable for anyone remotely familiar with the history of the church, which has had plenty of schisms and "heresies" on the way to where it is now and point 2) fails to consider that everything-including the contents Bible and much of church doctrine, reflects the work and concerns of Man as much as it does God. The Council of Nicea was roughly 225 years after St. John's death, so yeah Emperor Constantine probably had as much impact on the outcome of that council as Jesus or the Apostles. And so on down the road.

[IceCap]

I'd add point 3. That "Christianity" represents a monolithic whole. As you've said rams, there have been plenty of schisms throughout history. So when someone says "I can't accept a gay person for who they are because I'm a Christian" they're being wilfully ignorant of their faith's own diverse nature. The Great Schism of 1054 pretty much killed the notion that all Christians had the same set of beliefs but the truth of the matter is that Christians were debating what it meant to be Christian almost as soon as Jesus came down from the cross.

Even Roman Catholicism, often thought of as being monolithic in its own right, contained groups of diverse sects and beliefs across western Europe until the Protestant Reformation forced them to codify Catholic dogma.

These days there are numerous Christian denominations, some rather large ones being accepting of LGBT individuals. Some even let openly gay men serve as clergy. I dare say that Christianity is now, and has always been....

as diverse as a rainbow.

[dbadefense1990]

If Michael Sam's a bust (can you really be considered a bust if you're taken in the seventh round?) then it's because Michael Sam lacked the size, speed, and/or skill to compete at the NFL level. It's not going to be because his sexual orientation made him a poor football player.

1. I have to hope the sports media calls Sam a bust on his football grounds rather than on his sexual ones. You, I and every other average Joe fan can call him a bust because he's not up to NFL athletic standards, but most often, the media wants ratings and viewerships anyway it can (*cough*...ESPN...*cough*). And what story drives more viewers to the televisions? The Rams losing games because Sam and the rest of the St. Louis defense isn't up to the task, or the Rams losing because the locker room is being affected by Sam's sexual being?

2. Sam might have been a 7th rounder, but considering he was a unanimous All-American in the most prestigious collegiate football conference nationwide while being that conference's co-Defensive Player of the Year, he'll likely inherit the bust label if he doesn't perform as expected from a rookie with all these accolades.

[Gothamite]

And now Dungy's digging the hole deeper.

"I would want to wish him the best and let him know I have no bitterness or animosity to him, even though I don't agree with his lifestyle"

Sigh.

Anybody who talks about being gay as a "lifestyle" better talk about his own wife that way.

[rams80]

1. I have to hope the sports media calls Sam a bust on his football grounds rather than on his sexual ones. You, I and every other average Joe fan can call him a bust because he's not up to NFL athletic standards, but most often, the media wants ratings and viewerships anyway it can (*cough*...ESPN...*cough*). And what story drives more viewers to the televisions? The Rams losing games because Sam and the rest of the St. Louis defense isn't up to the task, or the Rams losing because the locker room is being affected by Sam's sexual being?

I thought the meta-narrative was the Rams lose because Sam Bradford is overrated/sucks/has been a textbook case for how not to develop a rookie QB or because Schotty Jr. is a terrible OC or because the team practice facilities were erected on a Native American burial ground.

[JayMac]

And now Dungy's digging the hole deeper.

"I would want to wish him the best and let him know I have no bitterness or animosity to him, even though I don't agree with his lifestyle"

Sigh.

Anybody who talks about being gay as a "lifestyle" better talk about his own wife that way.

What a moron. He couldn't just stop at him wishing Sam the best? No, he had to add his opinion back in there. We know that you don't agree with his "lifestyle", Dungy. Just shut up about it already. You don't have to agree with it but you don't have to make it known every time you talk.

[NJTank]

Didn't Dungy say he wouldn't have drafted Sam because of it basically being a media circus? Did he cite religious reasons as well?

Tony Dungy abandoned his son and wouldn't have anything to do with him because he was a homosexual.

I know Dungy's son killed himself but I do not recall hearing that he was gay and that Tony Dungy disowned him like Tommy Lasorda did with his son.

[NJTank]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

ESPN - First openly gay football player was cut by the Rams. (Will have camera and mic in front of his boyfriend asking for a reaction)

NBCSN - First openly gay football players was cut by the Rams. (Will have cameras and mics in front of Rams players and coaches)

FOX - See! We told you so! Gays don't belong!!

FOX, as conservative and protective of religious liberty as it is, isn't as homophobic as you think it is.

Oh, they are. Follow NASCAR on Fox, and you'll see the subtle digs.

Who is the audience of NASCAR and the announcer from that audience. Picking out Fox Sports from NASCAR is quite ridiculous.

[dbadefense1990]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

ESPN - First openly gay football player was cut by the Rams. (Will have cameras and mics in front of his boyfriend asking for a reaction)

NBCSN - First openly gay football players was cut by the Rams. (Will have cameras and mics in front of Rams players and coaches)

FOX - See! We told you so! Gays don't belong!!

Maybe FOX News, but certainly not FOX Sports. Name me one person from FOX's sports division who'd be as bigoted and prejudiced as someone from their news division (Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Michelle Malkin).

[monkeypower]

Yeah, for all the stuff FOX news takes about their anchors, you got to remember that they got these guys to anchor for FOX Sports 1.

(Come back to Canada please)

[Gothamite]

Fox News is a funny one, even setting aside the absurd bias. Populated with cartoon-character versions of conservatives, and anchored by a barely-closeted gay man.

[Needschat]

Michael Sam is a distraction, because he's gay. Not macho, perceived weak, Bible says it's wrong.

Ray Rice is not a distraction, because he beat his fiancee. Mucho Macho, Bible says you can beat your wife and/or daughter

Which is worse?

[STL FANATIC]

There are two main issues with Tony Dungy's comments, even if you take them in the best way possible.

1. He's ignorantly hiding behind his faith to defend his judgement and prejudice.

2. He's weak. He's saying that he would put his NFL football team well ahead of the opportunity to take a stand that could help change society. He's concerned about distractions affecting his football team rather than helping right inequalities. Perhaps the worst part is that he never could have been who he was today if an owner and general manager hadn't decided that any potential distractions were well-worth the opportunity to do what is right.

[Needschat]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

ESPN - First openly gay football player was cut by the Rams. (Will have camera and mic in front of his boyfriend asking for a reaction)

NBCSN - First openly gay football players was cut by the Rams. (Will have cameras and mics in front of Rams players and coaches)

FOX - See! We told you so! Gays don't belong!!

FOX, as conservative and protective of religious liberty as it is, isn't as homophobic as you think it is.

Oh, they are. Follow NASCAR on Fox, and you'll see the subtle digs.

Who is the audience of NASCAR and the announcer from that audience. Picking out Fox Sports from NASCAR is quite ridiculous.

Fox is still Fox. Being silent on the issue - not saying the words are not those Fox - is agreeing with them.

Chris Broussard has spoken of his religious beliefs on ESPN, but the company's said that those are his, not that of ABC/ESPN/Disney

[HedleyLamarr]

There are two main issues with Tony Dungy's comments, even if you take them in the best way possible.

1. He's ignorantly hiding behind his faith to defend his judgement and prejudice.

2. He's weak. He's saying that he would put his NFL football team well ahead of the opportunity to take a stand that could help change society. He's concerned about distractions affecting his football team rather than helping right inequalities. Perhaps the worst part is that he never could have been who he was today if an owner and general manager hadn't decided that any potential distractions were well-worth the opportunity to do what is right.

I don't know, it seems like everyone is trying to put one and one together when it comes to Sam being gay and Dungy's religious beliefs. Show me where, in either Dungy's initial remarks or his clarification statement, that Dungy said he hates gays or gay people can't play football or anything of the like. Not saying Dungy doesn't hate gays or whatever his personal beliefs are, but many are trying to insert the religious beliefs into a statement that never mentioned his thoughts on a gay man and spin it that direction.

All Dungy said was that he wouldn't have drafted Sam because his presence will be a distraction, whether it be to he, the coaching staff, or his players. And he's right in that aspect. Dungy knows just what all coaches go though during the course of training camp, preseason, and the regular season. Coaches are a weird group of people.

And yeah, I think that coaches in general don't care about changing society over their football team. Football's a results-based business, and if you don't win, you're not keeping a job for long. Sam may make the team, but if the Rams go 3-13 or worse, Jeff Fisher likely isn't keeping his job despite doing society a plus.

[STL FANATIC]

Dungy said he doesn't agree with his lifestyle due to his religious beliefs. In an interview during the hubbub. No, he didn't say he hates him, and he didn't say he can't play football. Hatred isn't the only form of judgement and prejudice, though. Clearly Dungy disapproves of Sam being gay.

And you're correct that coaches are evaluated on their record and not their societal contributions. But Jeff Fisher believed he's capable of handling any potential distractions so that the team can be successful and still make society better. Tony Dungy evidently doesn't think of himself as a good enough coach to do that.

[rams80]

Just because Dungy's black doesn't mean he can't use coded language.