MrWonka Needs Logo Help: UPDATE #3 (6/25)

[sparkychewbarky]

^That's some excellent advice from 9ersteve.

I always take a look at your projects.

Your uniform design and presentation skills are fantastic.

I can see the advantages of "hitting the box" early in the process of those two disciplines.

You've developed some really good templates and they're a great tool in achieving the final result.

Developing a logo from scratch is a different animal. I spend a ton of time on paper before going anywhere near the box.

I find that if I don't have it right at the "paper stage", I won't get it right on the computer.

As 9er stated, research the crap out of your subject...but also research some of the designers on these boards.

I always check out ren, dgnmrwrw, jaha, pcgd, GotPixels, and of course, Fraser, among many others.

Study how others do it.

For the Dolphin in particular...

You could have made him more aggressive by just changing the eyes.

I'm not fussy on the teeth. I thought the mouth was fine.

Hands are tough, and trying to make fins look like hands is really tough.

I liked the version without the stick.

But if your client demands a stick, try just putting it behind the front fin without attempting any sort of grab.

The back fin doesn't really HAVE to be holding the stick.

The simplest way to achieve an effect always seems to be the best.

Note: Actually a really good current reference for logo process is the DanOtis thread and his Bissendorfer panther logo.

[Jake3roo]

That update is goo-ood.

[MrWonka]

If you want the dolphin to hold a stick, and not have it look awkward, then you're going to have to think of the fins as very short human arms with shoulders. Look at photos of real hockey players holdings sticks. One shoulder dips with a straight arm, and the other shoulder is up with a bent arm. If you get that right, it will be a good logo.

I read somewhere that the KHL plans to put a team in Sochi with a dolphin mascot.

I had an idea of giving the dolphin 'hands'. Not fingers but just a thumb feature on both fins to give it a better understanding he's holding it and not cradling it.

[MrWonka]

_{Ok I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a few assumptions about the way you designed your dolphin logo, and why you're not as happy with the finished article as you'd hoped you be. You can then let me know if I'm right, and then we'll see if we cant get you over the "mediocrity" hump you talked about.}

When you started the logo the first thing you did was pick up your pencil and start drawing your logo right? You got your first draft down on paper as quick as you could and then started tweaking it from there. But no matter how many things you tweaked it just never felt quite right did it?

_{Am I anywhere close?}

I'm not a betting man, but I'd be willing to stake a few quid that I am. If I am you've done a pretty good job considering but you're never gonna get results you're truly happy with working that way. And I'll tell you why...

You're missing a VITAL stage of the process out! Right now it appears you're drawing what you THINK a dolphin looks like then simplifying it to create a logo. What you need to do is study what dolphins ACTUALLY look like and simplify from there!

RESEARCH is the key to ANY top quality piece of design be it logo, product or otherwise. That's ESPECIALLY true with animal logos and even more so if you're going for the minor league cartoon style. You have to know what makes a dolphin a dolphin (or whatever your subject is) before you can caricature it, or distil it down to it's simplest forms. Why? Because what YOU THINK makes a dolphin in your mind may vary DRAMATICALLY to what I or someone else pictures a dolphin as in their mind. But if you work from real references to begin with you'll get a much clearer idea of what the essential elements are and what parts to emphasize and what parts to down play. An artist wouldn't try to do a caricature of a famous actor without reference material, say a photo or if they're really lucky having the person there to model for them. Why would you try to do the same thing with an animal but do it without reference material? It's the same process and uses exactly the same principles.

Research, it's not sexy, sometimes it's not a ton of fun when all you want to do is draw your logos, but it's 100% NECESSARY and will improve your work 10 fold! If you, or anyone really wants to improve their logo work it's the MOST important thing you can do. Study photos of your subject, collect other logos of the same subject so you can see what you think works and MORE IMPORTANTLY what you'd do DIFFERENTLY. If someone else has already made a mistake it saves you the time of making it yourself, learn from other peoples, but most importantly LEARN about what you're drawing. If you do that you'll be able to communicate the subtleties of your subject that really capture it's character and THAT Is what makes for first class design.

9erssteve

I'll break this down into segments to hopefully answer the questions and listen to the feedback.

As for the first part I feel a part of the reason I'm strict on my designs is because I'm just a strict person when it comes to designs and I set a high expectation for myself for really everything. And that's not saying I think I'm going to achieve that expectation but it's just what happens with my competitive mindset and characteristic.

And actually this is the first time I did any research on an animal and actually drew something. First thing is first with this, I'm a terrible drawer. Before this what I would do is take an image I like and paste it into Illustrator and trace it. I think that definitely helped my skill with Illustrator but that's not getting me anywhere or better with making my own original designs so I told myself I'm going to have to start sometime to make my OWN design. I looked at about 20 images to get the size of the dolphin down. The tail, the mouth, where the dorsal fin would be placed and other little things. So I did not trace any image but my drawing skills aren't the best. I hope to progress that too a long the way. So I'd say research wasn't my problem.

And as I look through the rest of your comment I'd say that's about it. See, research I'm fine with. I know I need it and without it my dolphin may have looked like a macaroni noodle with twig arms. It helped me a long the way with this one. With this new update I think it blows the first one out of the water (pun not initially intended but I went for it anyway). I'm going to fix the fins and body to make the holding the stick feature right but as I wake up now I'm pretty happy to where I've been.

Maybe I'm assuming from your comment but I'd like to know what you think of the logo. I'm assuming that with your comment you think it might not look like a dolphin or isn't in the best shape right now so I'd like to hear that too if you get a chance to read this.

^That's some excellent advice from 9ersteve.

I always take a look at your projects.

Your uniform design and presentation skills are fantastic.

I can see the advantages of "hitting the box" early in the process of those two disciplines.

You've developed some really good templates and they're a great tool in achieving the final result.

Developing a logo from scratch is a different animal. I spend a ton of time on paper before going anywhere near the box.

I find that if I don't have it right at the "paper stage", I won't get it right on the computer.

As 9er stated, research the crap out of your subject...but also research some of the designers on these boards.

I always check out ren, dgnmrwrw, jaha, pcgd, GotPixels, and of course, Fraser, among many others.

Study how others do it.

For the Dolphin in particular...

You could have made him more aggressive by just changing the eyes.

I'm not fussy on the teeth. I thought the mouth was fine.

Hands are tough, and trying to make fins look like hands is really tough.

I liked the version without the stick.

But if your client demands a stick, try just putting it behind the front fin without attempting any sort of grab.

The back fin doesn't really HAVE to be holding the stick.

The simplest way to achieve an effect always seems to be the best.

Note: Actually a really good current reference for logo process is the DanOtis thread and his Bissendorfer panther logo.

I'm really second guessing the stick. I think I like it in one sense to give it more of a junior hockey level feel as I think the dolphin looks like a Junior or Semi Pro hockey level. However, a part of me would just like the dolphin. My initial idea was to have the city name with a C and the dolphin would be making that shape, but we'll just see where this ends up as I care more about the logo and not the actual location. Maybe I'll do something comical and place a 'Dolphins' team in the desert or something. I think I might try the new update without a stick too next time so we can have a little dispute on which one looks better. Hell maybe I'll keep the stick in hand for an 'alternate' logo. (Not a sleeve patch, but a logo used in other occasions).

[DanOtis]

Hey Ren, just got your reply now as I post this update. Hopefully you can see the update and make another comment based off of it. I definitely think this is progress and I like it a lot better. It's 2 AM right now so I'm going to catch some sleep. Worked on it for about an hour and a half and I think other designers might know working late at night might not be the best but, whatever. When I come back to it in the morning I hope I don't find things annoying or hate it (although that might happen) Tell me what you think. I'm going to bed satisfied where I'm at right now and we'll see where I can go from here. Thanks for the replies guys and hopefully I can make the right changes.

Hey Dylan.

I'm glad for you that you woke up and still liked it. ;o) That's something I'm also always afraid of - that I don't like it any more the next morning.

I also think that you did a good job here. It looks like a dolphin for sure. There are just some tweaks that I see that could still help a bit.

First thing is hard to explain - the chest area that you did in grey runs down to the tail and becomes invisible at the end - suggesting that we see the side of the tail that turns into the back-flipper. (? Don't know if it is called like that). That would be correct with a fish. But not with a dolphin. I think that the position of the tail is correct, but the chest area must not disappear to the bottom. I hope you get that.

Second thing is the white area that runs from the eye to the back. Here I think what confuses me is the fact that this is a mixture of a two color attempt and a lighting effect all in one. Plus - the radius looks a bit off to me. Perhaps try to separate the two-color and highlighting effect and smoothen the curve.

What always has to come into concern is - if the pose/angle is working with the intended impression.

Atbw

Daniel

[Morgan33]

The only thing I miss about the previous updates are the white highlights. In my opinion they worked better than grey. Besides that I have no complaints, looks great!

[MrWonka]

Thanks for all the replies. I'll have to take a couple days away from this as I'll have some family get togethers. Maybe that's something I need too. However when I get back to this I hope I have a better mindset what it will look like.

Also I just thought of creating an actual logo for myself and making it my picture on the boards but I always wondered...do people recognize me with the Wonka picture? Maybe I'm too conceited but I feel like that is my calling card when someone sees it.

[ren69]

Much improved from the previous one Mr. Wonka! You Made necessary adjustments to the tail, eye, mouth & stick. I also like the addition of the blow hole. Only thing I notice right off the bat without really examining it is the white highlight you have running down the side, while I like it I don't see the need to have it going into the dorsal fin. You can make a separate highlight for it but connecting it to the one on the body is kinda throwing it off a bit IMO. The other is the butt end of the stick looks like a baseball bat, use some hockey stick references for a quick fix. Last is the under belly where you have it in gray or white can be just be navy like you have the back flipper with maybe just leaving a small highlight on the outer edge depending on how it looks to you. Other than that it's coming along great, can't wait to see your next revision!

[jaha32]

9ersteve's advice was really good. Somewhere along the line I realized that it doesn't matter how many tweaks you make, if the original sketch is flawed and anatomically incorrect, the final product will never look right. By getting the sketch right, you will save yourself a ton of time on the computer. If you aren't the best sketch artist, it's not a bad idea to trace a photo, like you said you used to. Just look at the lighting/shading on the photo and simplify it for a logo. However, in this case, you will never find a photo of a dolphin in the pose you have here. Full body animals are always a lot more work that just head animal logos, simply because it takes more to get the natural movement of the full animal right.

Last time I commented, I was on my small phone screen, but now that I'm seeing the dolphin larger, there is still a lot more work it needs.

One thing that really seems off to me is the gray highlight runs from the eye and then splits in two with one end going all the way up the dorsal fin. It shouldn't connect to the dorsal fin. The dorsal fin runs right along the spine so there should be separation between those highlights.

You mentioned thinking of adding a thumb on the fins. That would look really unusual (unless you went full on minor league and added hockey gloves which I think would be a bad idea). Also, I agree with what others said about the tail fin which is almost looking sideways to me compared to actual dolphin tail fins.

Hopefully you get this dolphin to the point where you are more satisfied with it. With all the good feedback you've gotten so far, this might feel like feedback overload.

[MrWonka]

9ersteve's advice was really good. Somewhere along the line I realized that it doesn't matter how many tweaks you make, if the original sketch is flawed and anatomically incorrect, the final product will never look right. By getting the sketch right, you will save yourself a ton of time on the computer. If you aren't the best sketch artist, it's not a bad idea to trace a photo, like you said you used to. Just look at the lighting/shading on the photo and simplify it for a logo. However, in this case, you will never find a photo of a dolphin in the pose you have here. Full body animals are always a lot more work that just head animal logos, simply because it takes more to get the natural movement of the full animal right.

Last time I commented, I was on my small phone screen, but now that I'm seeing the dolphin larger, there is still a lot more work it needs.

One thing that really seems off to me is the gray highlight runs from the eye and then splits in two with one end going all the way up the dorsal fin. It shouldn't connect to the dorsal fin. The dorsal fin runs right along the spine so there should be separation between those highlights.

You mentioned thinking of adding a thumb on the fins. That would look really unusual (unless you went full on minor league and added hockey gloves which I think would be a bad idea). Also, I agree with what others said about the tail fin which is almost looking sideways to me compared to actual dolphin tail fins.

Hopefully you get this dolphin to the point where you are more satisfied with it. With all the good feedback you've gotten so far, this might feel like feedback overload.

It's needed though. And the biggest thing I want to get out of this is progress in all these skills. Like you said if the first sketch is wrong and I don't change the whole sketch then it will never look right. So I'm planning to do these types of threads more often to enhance these skills. I don't want to try and say I'd give up on this but what I'm saying is the finish product might not be perfect or it might not be mind blowing however, I hope that with the threads I make with the logos I want to see progress in all of them. Maybe this dolphin one won't be awesome (though I really want to finish it being awesome) but then the next logo I hope that the first draft I show will be better than the first update in this Dolphin one. Maybe I didn't explain that right but I tried.

I was also thinking of keeping all of the logos I attempt in this thread so it's not all over the place. Then the thread might get a little confusing though if someone is looking at an old logo. Keeping it all in one thread though interests me because hopefully when I really progress and make great logos this can be a nice learning tool for rookie designers to take criticism on these boards. I saw a Detroit Lions logo thread someone shared recently and that was a spectacular showing of if you listen and make the changes to your logos from the people on the boards you can make a fantastic looking piece of work. It seems like some artists on here don't want that. They want everyone on the boards to be like family and tell them how cool it is.

All in all I'm not trying to move away from the topic at hand; the Dolphin. The biggest thing I want to stay the same even though you'll never see a dolphin like it is the way it's styling a 'C'. Almost like a 'junior' hockey league team based off of the Canucks. I'll see where this heads though with the next update. After the next update with this style of Dolphin maybe it will be time to revamp the whole idea and start fresh with a new one.

Also about the hands. It might look a little unusual but a dolphin holding a hockey stick probably seems more unusual. In that case I'd probably ditch the stick version and just leave it with the fins.

[9erssteve]

Being hard on yourself when it comes to getting results is great. I'm never going to rip on someone who's trying to improve, and if I can across that way I'm sorry.

With regards the logo, I think it's ok. It's not a show stopper but it's certainly a lot better than some I've seen both here and on other logo forums so dont put yourself down. You're right finding a photo of a dolphin shaped as a C is gonna be pretty tough to find but a google search for "dolphin doing a somersault" turn up this little gem which could be of use if you dont have it already...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2043/2330581005_8022207650_z.jpg?zz=1

I think it's great you want to improve your drawing skills, sadly it's not something a lot of beginners especially here are keen to do. They seem to think that all design work should be done on the computer, and as a result their designs tend to look pretty stayed and never really progress beyond a certain level. So with that in mind I'd recommend looking at a series of books on drawing called "Force" in particular the one on drawing animals. All are available on amazon, or I'm sure if you dig deep enough on the internet you'll find pdf versions available somewhere, although I'd never condone that sort of thing. The series if primarily for animators and explains how to get movement into your characters but the principles are perfect for sports logo design as it's all about imparting life and excitement into your animal drawings which is exactly how a good sports logo should be. Also look at books on drawing comic art, for similar reasons, Drawing comics the marvel way was always a favourite of mine. It's getting a bit dated now, hell I got my copy nearly 20 years ago and it was a little behind the cutting edge then but the principles are still as tue today even if comic characters have evolved to super-superhuman proportions since it was written.

With regards the fins holding the stick, I'd have to say imo adding fingers would be a bad idea, it would be to much anthropomorphism and could just end up looking goofy or confusing the viewer. If you're looking for a great example of how a dolphin would hold something, the previous version of the Miami Dolphins logo had an alternate version where rather than jumping through the hoop the dolphin was on a plain background carrying a football. I'd say check that out and take your cues from there as to how to make an animal with no hands look like its holding something without going to far.

Kudos to you for wanting to improve and push yourself as best you can I think it's great and I'm sure you'll learn loads and have a ton of fun doing it, and if there is anything I can do to help out just shout.

9erssteve

[MrWonka]

Being hard on yourself when it comes to getting results is great. I'm never going to rip on someone who's trying to improve, and if I can across that way I'm sorry.

Not at all. You've been very helpful. Thank you for those recommendations. I'll be sure to take a look ASAP anything to help is worth a shot.

[mamiller99]

So right now, I'm reading a book called Learn to Draw in 30 Days. I doing this in order to hone my drawing skills. Granted you learn the basics, but without the basics, it's hard to draw advanced drawings. I would definitely recommend this book to you.

[Guest darkpiranha]

A dorsal fin kinda looks like the blade of a hockey stick. What if you wrapped the fin in tape like a stick? Or even made it more blade-shaped?

[MrWonka]

Here we go with another update. This update is going in a different direction with the dolphin. This is my opinion on it.

I think it looks much more like a dolphin. With the colors and just the body in general. I think it's bold and straight forward like a logo should be. After finishing it I'm very pleased with it. It's also not late at night so I think I'll be pleased with this one. Maybe I'll be the only one to think this but I think I'm getting closer to finishing. Thoughts?

#1 - First ever drawing

#2 - Second full drawing

#3 - Just did the outlines of what I'm working with

#4 - Gave the dolphin the outline detail

#5 - Changed colors to still have a light blue feel, but more gray to fit an actual dolphin

#6 - My final version so far.

This didn't only actually take 6 steps. If I showed you everyone I took I probably wouldn't have enough memory on my computer to save all the screen shots. This is just a basic idea of what I went through to create it.

[MrWonka]

More of a blue just so you all can see what that might look like

[MrWonka]

I....think I'm going to take that as a plus.

[MrWonka]

Here we go with another update. This update is going in a different direction with the dolphin. This is my opinion on it.

I think it looks much more like a dolphin. With the colors and just the body in general. I think it's bold and straight forward like a logo should be. After finishing it I'm very pleased with it. It's also not late at night so I think I'll be pleased with this one. Maybe I'll be the only one to think this but I think I'm getting closer to finishing. Thoughts?

#1 - First ever drawing

#2 - Second full drawing

#3 - Just did the outlines of what I'm working with

#4 - Gave the dolphin the outline detail

#5 - Changed colors to still have a light blue feel, but more gray to fit an actual dolphin

#6 - My final version so far.

This didn't only actually take 6 steps. If I showed you everyone I took I probably wouldn't have enough memory on my computer to save all the screen shots. This is just a basic idea of what I went through to create it.

Bump

[YelichGraphics]

what if you turned the shadow of the eye around

[MrWonka]

I'll post another small update with some choices of the current dolphin right now since I haven't had much C+C on the last update.