Trojans/Roman logos

[gordie_delini]

With maybe the exception of USC, why are all depictions of Trojans, or anything Roman (i.e. the Senators) always that of a Roman centurion? The Gwinnett Gladiators did a fantastic job at getting away from this. But am I just crazy? I mean, the Trojans were the eventual forefathers for Rome, but they wore different armor, used different weapons, and much different fighting styles. The Senate was a political body, made up of old men. Thats what a Senator is - it comes from the Latin word senex meaning "old man" - so a Senator is "one who sits in the group of old men" essentially. How does a centurion represent that? As for Troy State, clearly this is not a Trojan warrior. The cape was worn only by high ranking officers in the Roman army, to signal rank. Trojan warriors did not even wear capes, let alone the kind of chest armor the Romans had. Does this bother anyone else? Thoughts? Comments? Disagreements? Bring 'em on.

[Hat Boy]

So, you'd be happier if this was the logo for the Senators?

[PackerBadger]

Isn't he missing swimming gear?

[sacker12]

As for Troy, clearly this is not a Trojan warrior. The cape was worn only by high ranking officers in the Roman army, to signal rank. Trojan warriors did not even wear capes, let alone the kind of chest armor the Romans had.

I didn't know that. However, Jamie Skiles of Phoenix Design Works modeled the logos after renderings and photos he had seen of Trojan warriors. So, if it the logos are historically inaccurate, it is his fault.

[gordie_delini]

So, you'd be happier if this was the logo for the Senators?

hahaha no - but it doesnt make sense to have a centurion posing as a senator

[jab8281965]

So, you'd be happier if this was the logo for the Senators?

Only if the team were referred to as the following:

Whiskeyfaces

Bootleggers (Kennedy family made their fortune in Bootlegging in the 30s)

Marketcrashers (Kennedy family traded ahead of the market crash in 1929, and old man Kennedy shorted the market big time and made a fortune when it crashed)

Chappaquiddicks

Mike McGwires or Sammy Soosers (in talking at an event before the 1999 All Star Game in Boston, "Senator" Kennedy referred to Mike McGwire and Sammy Sooser)

Senatorial Privileges

[footballfiji]

I'm guessing that in a fight between Historical Accuracy and a more common/easily recognizable logo that the later will always win out.

I see the Troy logo I think of a Trojan.

For most people if they see a figure with a sword, breastplate, skirt, and helmet with flare at the top they'd think either Trojan or Spartan.

If they see a figure with a full suit of silver/black armor, closed faced helmet, a sword and sheild they think knight.

If they see a barechested figure with a feather headress they think Indian/Warrior.

Might not be right but it's the way most think.

[Lee.]

As for Troy, clearly this is not a Trojan warrior.  The cape was worn only by high ranking officers in the Roman army, to signal rank.  Trojan warriors did not even wear capes, let alone the kind of chest armor the Romans had.

I didn't know that. However, Jamie Skiles of Phoenix Design Works modeled the logos after renderings and photos he had seen of Trojan warriors. So, if it the logos are historically inaccurate, it is his fault.

Photos?

I'm guessing that camera can't be bought at Wal-Mart.

[sacker12]

As for Troy, clearly this is not a Trojan warrior.  The cape was worn only by high ranking officers in the Roman army, to signal rank.  Trojan warriors did not even wear capes, let alone the kind of chest armor the Romans had.

I didn't know that. However, Jamie Skiles of Phoenix Design Works modeled the logos after renderings and photos he had seen of Trojan warriors. So, if it the logos are historically inaccurate, it is his fault.

Photos?

I'm guessing that camera can't be bought at Wal-Mart.

I meant that he looked at photos of (supposedly) the armor of Trojan warriors.

[andrewharrington]

As for Troy, clearly this is not a Trojan warrior.  The cape was worn only by high ranking officers in the Roman army, to signal rank.  Trojan warriors did not even wear capes, let alone the kind of chest armor the Romans had.

I didn't know that. However, Jamie Skiles of Phoenix Design Works modeled the logos after renderings and photos he had seen of Trojan warriors. So, if it the logos are historically inaccurate, it is his fault.

Wouldn't surprise me. A lot of bad logos are his and his staff's fault as well. You guys are lucky that you got one of the few decent logos ever to come out of good ol' Phoenix Design Works. I think a lot of this historical inaccuracy has to do with the fact that most Americans are not well-versed in world history. Thus, many designers [who may or may not be well-versed in world history] are creating images that cater to the stereotypical images many people attach to certain historical terms, like trojan, like spartan, like knight, like crusader, et al. It's unfortunate, but very real.

[STL FANATIC]

As for Troy, clearly this is not a Trojan warrior.  The cape was worn only by high ranking officers in the Roman army, to signal rank.  Trojan warriors did not even wear capes, let alone the kind of chest armor the Romans had.

I didn't know that. However, Jamie Skiles of Phoenix Design Works modeled the logos after renderings and photos he had seen of Trojan warriors. So, if it the logos are historically inaccurate, it is his fault.

Wouldn't surprise me. A lot of bad logos are his and his staff's fault as well. You guys are lucky that you got one of the few decent logos ever to come out of good ol' Phoenix Design Works. I think a lot of this historical inaccuracy has to do with the fact that most Americans are not well-versed in world history. Thus, many designers [who may or may not be well-versed in world history] are creating images that cater to the stereotypical images many people attach to certain historical terms, like trojan, like spartan, like knight, like crusader, et al. It's unfortunate, but very real.

It's not always the designer either. Sometimes it's the teams.

When I made a logo for a high school team named the Crusaders, I looked at many photos of armor and drawings and all that, and put together a proposal.

While it was liked, the school rep asked for certain changes. Changes which I could not actually find to be an accurate combination of armor and what not for a Crusader (though it could have been, I don't know for sure).

Regardless, it's what the school wanted, so I had to deal with what might have been historical inaccuracy.

[Gordie]

With maybe the exception of USC, why are all depictions of Trojans, or anything Roman (i.e. the Senators) always that of a Roman centurion? . . .  The Senate was a political body, made up of old men.  Thats what a Senator is - it comes from the Latin word senex meaning "old man" - so a Senator is "one who sits in the group of old men" essentially.  How does a centurion represent that?

Roman armies were led by aristocrats of senatorial rank, like Julius Caesar, and the Ottawa Senators logo depicts one of these, not a centurion.

Centurions typically had crests that were mounted across their helmets, ear-to-ear, not front-to-back like the officer in Ottawa's logo - in this case, a Senator. (He's even wearing a cape!)

[gordie_delini]

no not even that - centurions did indeed have the side to side helmet crest, yes. but, it wasn't the aristocratic senators who were leading the armies. Julius Caesar was never a senator - the senate didn't exist in his lifetime. Before defeating i believe it was Pompey, he was part of the first Triumvirate (Latin: Three men) and then declared himself dictator for life before being assassinated. The Roman army was an army of professional soldiers - not of aristocrats. Occassionally, soldiers became aristocrats and politicians (e.g. Marcus Antonius) but very rarely the other way around. Again, Senator means "One who is in the group of Old Men" - these older aristocratic males were not leading armies. later, only the emperor had that distinction. the emperor could appoint senators to be generals, but they would not be anywhere near the front lines of battle at all. they appointees usually would delegate authority to one who had real combat experience. So the Ottawa logo is just a Roman soldier, not a senator.

[Gordie]

Julius Caesar was never a senator - the senate didn't exist in his lifetime.

Wow! I'll bet that would have come as a surprise to him, especially considering the fact that he was assassinated by other senators at a meeting of the senate.

Don't get fixated on the term "old men". It doesn't literally mean that the senators were old, but that they were "elders" - more distinguished, or of a higher class. These were the men who were the leaders of all aspects of society in republican Rome, and that includes miltary leadership. It's true that Rome had a professional army, but at the highest levels, appointment was as much a political consideration as it was military.

Julius Caesar, among others, was both a senator and a soldier, and the Ottawa Senators logo is perfectly representative of his kind.

[gordie_delini]

Julius Caesar was never a senator - the senate didn't exist in his lifetime.

Wow! I'll bet that would have come as a surprise to him, especially considering the fact that he was assassinated by other senators at a meeting of the senate.

Don't get fixated on the term "old men". It doesn't literally mean that the senators were old, but that they were "elders" - more distinguished, or of a higher class. These were the men who were the leaders of all aspects of society in republican Rome, and that includes miltary leadership. It's true that Rome had a professional army, but at the highest levels, appointment was as much a political consideration as it was military.

Julius Caesar, among others, was both a senator and a soldier, and the Ottawa Senators logo is perfectly representative of his kind.

ah you got me there - i forgot brutus and cassius were both senators, but caesar himself was part of the triumvirate, and then dictator for life - not the senatorial body itself. As for the senate, there were certain age limitations as well as social restrictions. remember that the average life expectancy was much older, so by the time men were middle-aged by today's standards, they were considered old. either way, caesar was a dictator, not a senator.

[IceCap]

The Roman Senate dated back to the establishment of the Roman Republic, hundreds of years before Julis Caesar, it excisted during Caesar's lifetime, and it excisted until the fall of the Roman Empire.

During the days of the Roman Republic (when Rome did most of its conquering), Roman citizens (rich, white ladowners) voted in a senate from among Rome's upper class families. The senators then elected from among themselves a Council. He would serve a one year term as the leader of the Republic. The Council, in times of trouble, could declare someone a dictator for a year with unrestricted powers so they could guide the Republic through hard times with strong leadership.

Now the generals of the Roman army were considered senators, but in a ceramonial sence. Like the way the Queen of England is considered the head of the British military. These Roman generals were granted the title "senator" but they never really did anything in regards to the senate. It was just an other title to them. Then Caesar came along. A brilliant general, he was named Governer of the Roman province of Gaul (France) and made a ceramonial senator. In a grab for power Caesar and two other generals (forgot their names) formed the Triumvirate and basically took control of the senate. Then he declared himself dictator for an unmentioned amount of time, and was then assasinated. From the chaos that ensued, Caesar's nephew and adoped son Octavian was crowned the first Emperor of Rome as Caesar Augustus.

[gordie_delini]

thank you icecap, for that resolution.

[IceCap]

thank you icecap, for that resolution.

Sure, any time

[Gordie]

thank you icecap, for that resolution.

Taking your ball and going home?

. . . either way, caesar was a dictator, not a senator.

Caesar was a senator, and not a ceremonial one, long before the Triumvirate was formed and he was subsequently named Dictator.

His primary profession was politics. He worked his way up the Roman political ladder, holding many posts. As a popular senator, he was famous for his passionate and forceful speaking style, lauded even by Rome's greatest orator, and fellow senator, Cicero.

In his younger days, seeking to strengthen his political fortunes, he travelled to Greece to study rhetoric. On the voyage, he was captured by pirates, and promised to kill them. After being ransomed, he tracked them down and had them crucified. Later, as an illustrious senator and highly public figure, when his second wife was rumoured to be unfaithful, he divorced her, explaining "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion".

Military command was a secondary pursuit of Caesar's, a means of gathering wealth, triumph, and acclaim - advantages that would allow him to satisfy his political ambition to become the most powerful man in Rome, and thereby the world.

I'm not saying that all Roman generals were senators, or that every senator was a general, but through the years, as leading citizens of Rome, and leaders of all aspects of society, there were many senators who, like Caesar, held military command. Ottawa's logo depicts one of these senators, not a centurion as was initially stated.

[gordie_delini]

ok...someone's not letting this go...i didn't want to start an argument about the political situation in Rome. happy now? jesus. ok, the ottawa logo is a senator. it still doesn't depict a soldier of high enough rank however to more appropriately depict that.