9erssteve

High costs are an excellent reason not to buy authentic jersey... but they are not a reason to buy fake jerseys. There are a plethora of options available for those reasonable enough not to spend $300 on a shirt.

I never said it was a reason to buy one, just that it was the reason for it and the trades existence. They're two very different things.

1. Buy jerseys on sale. This doesn't help MUCH (10-20% usually) but there it is. Personally, I was able to get the new Marlins jerseys at 40% off about half-way through 2012.

2. Buy lower tier jerseys. It is an infinitely more authentic statement of fandom to wear a legitimate replica than a fake "authentic." I still have and wear some of my replicas.

3. Buy closeouts and second-hand jerseys. When teams trade players, change manufacturers or update their jerseys, they liquidate their existing backstock... which allows fans to get legitimate jerseys are more reasonable prices (I have a silver Patriots Alt that I paid ~$85 for). Authentic blank baseball jerseys can be had for ~$30.

4. Buy game used jerseys. If you're talking about jerseys from non-star players, you can actually get them cheaper than retail authentics (again, this is especially true in baseball).

I personally go with option two and have no problem with it at all, but the issue with a grat many of the other options you list is that they involve waiting, and lack of patience is another reason the counterfiet trade exists. The vast majority of fans could probably over time save up and get a genuine authentic, but with player turnover in sports at an all time high, will the player you want still be on the team by the time you've saved the cash? Not how I'd go but that's how some justify it I'm sure.

Would lowering the price of jerseys cut down on counterfeiting? Probably not. Any feasible reduction would not likely attract any more customers who would otherwise buy fakes for ~$60. What would address some of the problems is making the process more dexterous. The NFL did not have Tim Tebow jerseys in 2011, so when his popularity peaked at the end of the 2011 season... every Bronco fan wore a fake because that's all that was available. The same is true of Colin Kaepernick in 2012.

I agree about the speed with which "hot" players jerseys become avaiable, it's essentially what I was saying about patience, but still believe if you could get a Nike Limited jersey for $90 instead of $120 a lot of people would be more inclined to go for that than a poorly made authentic for $60 especially when you see how inaccurate some are. Again it's about moving people to legit product not getting them to invest in the highest level of the legit product right away.

I think that the ideal solution to counterfeiting would be re-introducing competition in the market. Let teams determine their own manufacturers (maybe restrict it to 2-3 authorized vendors)... so that you can have the manufacturers compete for your dollars. If Nike cannot make a Colin Kaepernick jersey before Adidas, then they lose out on that business. If Reebok's quality cannot match Nike's, they lose out on sales. If Adidas jerseys cost too much, then they lose out on sales to others.

That might help, but the ideal solution would have been not setting up shop in a part of the world that has a total disregard for ANY form of copyright law. China has a fake WHITE HOUSE for crying out loud, they've ripped off ENTIRE DISTRICTS from countries ALL OVER THE WORLD and when it was pointed out to them in court that architecture is also protected the court system over there essentially said, we're China we can do what we like. If they're like that with famous buildings from around the world how the hell are you supposed to stop them copying what are essentially over priced t-shirts?

9erssteve

I don't buy counterfeits because I am pretty particular about fonts, numbers, and materials. At the same time, if I did choose to buy them, I wouldn't feel bad about it in the least. The designers definitely deserve to be compensated, obviously, but when you have companies like Nike (as 9erssteve pointed out) paying their labor 25 cents an hour to sew $10 worth of fabric together, they deserve to be screwed. It isn't even about the base cost, because there's a price to be paid for quality, and I don't mind paying it, as I have around 20 authentic NHL jerseys, some of which are 20 years old. My problem lies with the labor.

Yes, they do have the authority to charge whatever they want for a jersey. In a lot of cases, the costs are going up while quality goes down (see: Edge 1.0). No problem...I can vote with my wallet and just not buy it. But seriously, people here get high and mighty about Nike not getting their money, but no one cares that they're paying a 10 year old Asian kid 10 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks to make them. So let's get off of the high horse. If you're going to be up in arms about Nike or Adidas not getting their money, you should also be pissed about their labor practices.

Where do you think the Chinese fakes are made?

Hint: it's not in Germany

What's more, companies can be pressured into improving the conditions of their factories and the integrity of their supply chain. Nike has not exactly turned their factories into day-spas... but they have done a lot more than you can expect of counterfeiters.

That would be a neat trick as a large portion of the counterfiet good on the market (and I mean all fake good not just football and hockey jerseys) are made in exaclty the same factories as the real thing. Do some reading on the fake trade the evidence is all there.

9erssteve

You really should try some critical thinking. I knew the rape analogy would stick out to those who react in a knee jerk way so I even pointed out that I was not equating the crimes.

The analogy is "blaming the victim", that is all. It's most prevalent in rape. At no point do I imply the crimes are similar. I am not equating the crimes, but the "blame the victim" mentality. That's all. Really though, it's my fault. I know there are all kinds of people on the internet.

Much of what you say about counterfeiting is true. Counterfeiting is prevalent because of prices. "I can see" that, so it's not "my issue." Yes there are far more serious issues, but since this is a thread about counterfeiting...

But you seem to be suggesting (and correct me if I am wrong because you sure as hell missed the mark on the analogy) that this means that on some level they deserve it and that's just not so. The ease of the stealing and the difficulty of enforcement are also key in why this is so prevalent. In any case, if you do not blame the IP owners, your presentation sure seems to imply it.

As for my analogy, calm down. Rape is the most noteworthy "victim blaming" crime. That's the analogy and one should really be able to not just assume I am equating the two crimes.

Fine, here's a better one...

As for "blaming themselves", so the manufacturers are essentially like the the guy who gets his car radio stolen...his car was parked for too long in a sketchy neighborhood and the doors were unlocked, so we blame the victim. Better? The analogy works. Yeah, the dude could have locked his car and made it more difficult, but let's not forget that the crook is a crook and focus the blame on him.

No I DID NOT suggest they deserve it.

All I did was point out there is a tipping point, you push the price to high you leave yourself open to it happening. The fact it's gotten easier to copy work is just another factor in that tipping point. The fact that graphics software adn knowledge is now more prevelant has it's bonuses as well as it's down sides, this forum being a bonus. If creating graphics hadn't become so much easier in recent years 95% of the people on this forum wouldn't be here and wouldn't have an interest in the subject. Sadly with the ease of creation comes the ease of theft, again not condoning it just pointing out it's the flip side to reason why we're all here and love and enjoy the subject matter this site is dedicated to.

But all of this BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION comes down to the fact that people are unwilling to pay what Nike or other manufacturers want for their top end products. The reason they dont want pay is because people KNOW how much these things cost to produce and the mark ups arre frankly obscene. There's blame to be had on both sides if we look hard enough for it, if Nike kept production in the US where IP laws are more stringently followed producing counterfiet goods would be harder, but in order to maximise profit they took all the manufacturing work out to Asia where it's well known they have ZERO regard for copyright law.

You seem to be acting as if the manufacturers are blamless in all this, they're not. They KNEW the region's disregard for copyright law when they set up their factories there but DID IT ANYWAY. Sleep with dogs you'll get fleas.

At the end of the day a price cut would and will solve the issue faster than trying to go the legal route, price the crap knock-off out the market by making the real deal more affordable and problem solved. It's pretty much fact, and it wouldn't take a HUGE cut either that's the sad thing here.

The truth is as things stand the amount of money being lost to the counterfieters must be within Nike or anyone elses tolerance levels otherwise we'd have far more drastic action from them than we've seen up until this point, including amoung other things price realignments.

I remember when I was a kid how I had to settle for buying team t-shirts with my lawn cutting money before I could afford to buy jerseys.

I'm pretty confident that if legit jersey cost only $50, that the $25-$30 fakes would still sell.

Maybe maybe not. But that's not really important. There are a lot of items I'd like to have and I wish the producers would lower the price. I absolutely fail to see how a price that is perceived as too high (and, FWIW I agree) justifies IP theft. Yeah, they are overpriced. Fortunately, they are also a luxury item that I really do not need to have in order to 1) survive and 2) be happy. I am sending a message to the leagues by not buying their over-priced items. If they were more appropriately priced, I may buy one occasionally. But I don't guy buy some goofy-looking (or, in some cases, pretty decent looking) knock off to "send a message" (that's not the reason anyone buys them...it's to save a buck).

There is a process. A creative design effort, etc. It absolutely drives me nuts that people just wait around for someone to do the work and then essentially "photocopy" that work and make money off of it. How someone finds that anything other than "wrong" truly escapes me.

Yes, I agree that the prices are too high. But it does not justify the support of IP theft.

This whole thread/argument could be put to bed in one fell swoop if the MANUFACTURERS would do ONE simple thing... LOWER THE PRICE.

As has been stated on this page $300 for a freaking shirt is practically unjustifiable. I dont care how much "innovation" or "technology" is involved at the end of the day it's a mesh jersey with some numbers stitched on, it's NOT worth $300+. That right there is WHY counterfiets exist. No other reason. If AUTHENTICS cost $150 or less MORE would be sold, and there would be less of a market for counterfiet jerseys.

It's simple greed that's fueling the whole cycle. I'd be really interested to know just how much more expesive it is to produce a Nike Limited jersey over a Gameday Replica, and likewise how much more expensive it is to produce an Elite over a Limited, cos I'll bet a $ to pinch of Snuff it's PENNIES difference yet the difference in retail price is MASSIVE.

If Nike, or any other manufacturer wanted to shut down counterfieting over night lowering their costs is all they'd have to do. I firmly believe it wouldn't even affect their bottom line as the increase in sales brought about by people who could now easily afford to buy more would more than ensure that their profits stayed healthy.

Yes counterfeiting is illegal, but manufacturers have made the rod for thier own backs by ramping up the price of merchandise ludacrously in the last 10 to 15 years so they've no one to blame but themselves. They cant in clear conscience effectively ripp off the paying customer then cry foul when someone does it to them, that's the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.

Greed? Is there no greed involved when leaches copy someone else's work and sell it as their own. The buyer is rewarding laziness and greed.

As for "blaming themselves", so the manufacturers are essentially like the woman that gets raped...she was on her own and was wearing a short skirt, so we blame the victim (and please think this through...I am not equating IP theft with rape...but I am pointing out that the IP owner is the victim of counterfeiting and blaming the victim is pretty lazy)

What the !!!! Did you just try to compare RAPE VICTIMS and IP theft? Even with the caveat "I'm not equating" thrown in there as an after thought you ARE equating them as YOU brought them up in the same bloody sentence. The two are not even close and NOWHERE did I even insinuate anything close to that you cretin.

NOWHERE did I CONDONE IP theft. NOWHERE. I gave the REASON for it's existence and a solution that would work FAR QUICKER than trying to shut down factories in China where they have ZERO REGARD FOR IP LAWS OF ANY KIND. I DID NOT say that purchasing a counterfiet jersey was ok because the price is high, I just pointed out why the opportunity for counterfieting exists.

If you cant see that counterfieting exists because people are priced out the market that's your issue, but clearly it's one amoung MANY FAR MORE SERIOUS ISSUES if you think for one second what I said and your ill thought through metaphor have ANY bearing on one another!

Authentic Jersey's are a luxury item, and as such will have a higher price tag... but push that tag to high and you leave yourself open to being ripped off. Is it right? No... BUT it's something the IP owners CAN AND DO CONTROL.

You're analouge is frankly disgusting and if anyone needs to THINK THIS THROUGH it's yourself.

This whole thread/argument could be put to bed in one fell swoop if the MANUFACTURERS would do ONE simple thing... LOWER THE PRICE.

As has been stated on this page $300 for a freaking shirt is practically unjustifiable. I dont care how much "innovation" or "technology" is involved at the end of the day it's a mesh jersey with some numbers stitched on, it's NOT worth $300+. That right there is WHY counterfiets exist. No other reason. If AUTHENTICS cost $150 or less MORE would be sold, and there would be less of a market for counterfiet jerseys.

It's simple greed that's fueling the whole cycle. I'd be really interested to know just how much more expesive it is to produce a Nike Limited jersey over a Gameday Replica, and likewise how much more expensive it is to produce an Elite over a Limited, cos I'll bet a $ to pinch of Snuff it's PENNIES difference yet the difference in retail price is MASSIVE.

If Nike, or any other manufacturer wanted to shut down counterfieting over night lowering their costs is all they'd have to do. I firmly believe it wouldn't even affect their bottom line as the increase in sales brought about by people who could now easily afford to buy more would more than ensure that their profits stayed healthy.

Yes counterfeiting is illegal, but manufacturers have made the rod for thier own backs by ramping up the price of merchandise ludacrously in the last 10 to 15 years so they've no one to blame but themselves. They cant in clear conscience effectively ripp off the paying customer then cry foul when someone does it to them, that's the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.

As for the IP Theft issue, I can pretty much guanatee that ZERO DESIGNERS are being affected by the sale of knock-off jerseys, as I'll bet every designers that's worked on ANY of the logo's used in any sports league today will have been PAID ALREADY. They'll have recieved a one off fee for the entire project and then signed ownership of the logo OVER TO THE TEAM OR LEAGUE. So yeah IP theft has still occured but it wont have hit the designer in the pocket as he/she doesn't receive a percentage of the profits generated from their work anyway.

Actually not true. If you work for a company that sells those jerseys and offers a bonus based on sales, then you are losing money based on someone buying a counterfeit instead of a legit jersey. Or a counterfeit instead of a t-shirt. Or supporting a bogus business and allowing it to exist.

Yeah nice Hypothetical, but that's not how the NFL works. The NFL owns the rights to ALL the logos and licences them to Nike for the uniforms. The logo's are designed either in house by designers on a fixed wage, or by an outside agency who are paid a one off fee.

Its not a hypothetical it happens at the manufactures. Designers work for the manufactures.

Yeah you're right NIke probably does employ designers too. But if you think they're employed to design NFL uniforms EXCLUSIVELY, and that they receive any kind of "bonus" based on the sales of them then I think you're living in cloud cukoo land!

9erssteve

As for the IP Theft issue, I can pretty much guanatee that ZERO DESIGNERS are being affected by the sale of knock-off jerseys, as I'll bet every designers that's worked on ANY of the logo's used in any sports league today will have been PAID ALREADY. They'll have recieved a one off fee for the entire project and then signed ownership of the logo OVER TO THE TEAM OR LEAGUE. So yeah IP theft has still occured but it wont have hit the designer in the pocket as he/she doesn't receive a percentage of the profits generated from their work anyway.

Actually not true. If you work for a company that sells those jerseys and offers a bonus based on sales, then you are losing money based on someone buying a counterfeit instead of a legit jersey. Or a counterfeit instead of a t-shirt. Or supporting a bogus business and allowing it to exist.

Yeah nice Hypothetical, but that's not how the NFL works. The NFL owns the rights to ALL the logos and licences them to Nike for the uniforms. The logo's are designed either in house by designers on a fixed wage, or by an outside agency who are paid a one off fee.

As for the IP Theft issue, I can pretty much guanatee that ZERO DESIGNERS are being affected by the sale of knock-off jerseys, as I'll bet every designers that's worked on ANY of the logo's used in any sports league today will have been PAID ALREADY. They'll have recieved a one off fee for the entire project and then signed ownership of the logo OVER TO THE TEAM OR LEAGUE. So yeah IP theft has still occured but it wont have hit the designer in the pocket as he/she doesn't receive a percentage of the profits generated from their work anyway.

Actually not true. If you work for a company that sells those jerseys and offers a bonus based on sales, then you are losing money based on someone buying a counterfeit instead of a legit jersey. Or a counterfeit instead of a t-shirt. Or supporting a bogus business and allowing it to exist.

9ersSteve, that's a really stupid post.

Think about it - teams / leagues have a budget for designs, and a percentage of that budget is allocated to paying the artists or design firms for their work. If they're not selling as much legit stuff due to people buying fakes, then eventually the apparel and license deals go down, and all of a sudden the revenue generated by coming up with a redesign is lower, which means that the budget is lower, which means that the designer gets paid less.

Honestly, to think that everyone involved in producing a design isn't affected by IP theft is ridiculous at best.

In the long term yeah you're 100% correct, but people were talking in here like designers recieve a percentage of every jersey sold, in real time, and that's not the case. That was what I meant by that statement, sorry if I wasn't 100% clear on that. But with that said lets be honest here, Nike or whoever the manufacturer is would be likely to take DRASTIC action against counterfieters LONG before the trickle down in losses made a serious dent in what they pay designers, for two reasons.

1. they pay designers a MINISCULE amount compared with the profits they generate from the goods they sell with the designs on them, so

2. If they ever lost the kind of money required to reduce the amount profit they make to the point where budgets for design are slashed they'd have far bigger things to worry about than paying designers!

The facts are, Authentic jerseys are priced high, in order to make them a luxury item, the result is that it leaves them open to having their goods counterfieted. It's NOT RIGHT, but that is the cause. Does it harm the design industry?YES.

But I'd argue the harm it does affects smaller designers FAR more. Nike/Reebok/Addidas etc etc's INACTION with regards IP theft (because right now it's not hurting their balance books enough) means that counterfieters think it's OK to steal ANYONE'S work! Smaller designer's are losing out thru IP theft of their work and there's NOTHING THEY CAN DO, because if BIG COMPANIES let it slide then the courts dont take IP THEFT SERIOUSLY ENOUGH!

As a result you end up with situations like Davidson posted about this morning where HIS designs are ripped off again! Now I dont want to speculate as to Davidson's financial situation but I bet he cant afford to lose out on the time and what should rightfully be his money in the way Nike can! Becuase (in this case) Nike dont (or wont) do anything about it, you can bet Davidson has little hope of stopping those using his work without permission, or seeing any money for his work if they do keep using it.

If you ask me THAT is the real harm that's being done to the design industry in this. Intelectual Property is not being protected in the way it SHOULD, because it isn't affect big companies profit lines, and that is WRONG. This is something big corporations COULD do a number of things to stop, TOMORROW if they wanted to, but wont, because there's no real financial benefit in it for them and that's all they care about. At the end of the day they're screwing the designers of the world too, they're just doing it in different ways.

9erssteve

You keep saying that Nike is pricing itself out of the market by making their authentics $300. That's simply not the case. If these prices were so expensive that nobody was buying them then you'd see the price drop to the appropriate level. The fact is that the $300 price level is the right amount for the demand of the product. Of course it doesn't cost anywhere near that to produce, but there are enough people willing to pay that much to justify the price. Reebok was selling authentic jerseys for about the same price for years. I'm sure Nike had all the data they needed of those sales to determine that keeping the price there would maximize their profits on authentic jerseys. An authentic jersey is a luxury item. That's why Nike can price the jerseys so much higher than what they cost to produce. They're not losing out on profit from the authentic jerseys when people buy counterfeits, because those people wouldn't have bought an authentic jersey in the first place.

I never said Nike was pricing itself out the market, I said it was pricing a percentage of potential consumers out the market. Big difference, yes people are still buying authentic jerseys and yes it must be profitable or else Nike wouldn't still be doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the price point that is the cause of the Fake trade.

You're right an authentic jersey is a luxury item, but think about it this way, so is a Jaguar motor car. And as expensive as Jaguar motors are, the consumer does not pay more for his than a Pro Racing team that professionally develops, designs tests and races cars. So why is it that sports fans pay more for their jerseys than the teams do? Anyway that's slighty off point so back on track...

it seems to me we actually agree on more than we disagree on. Yes a fair percentage of people buying fakes are not really cutting into Nike's (or Reebok's in the past) profits on authentic jersey sales as they probably wouldn't have bought one at the current price anyway, it doesn't make it right but it does explain why the fakes exist.

They exist because people feel the prices are to high. The fix is lower the prices, but as we've both said right now the losses being made are clearly not big enough for Nike (this time round) to take that step. If prices were lower there wouldn't be a demand for fake products, I think that's a pretty indisputable fact, be it sports jerseys, watches, handbags etc etc.

Again I dont encourage people to do it, I'm just trying to find a reason why the trade exists at all, and right now it's the only explaination I can come up with.

9erssteve

As for the IP Theft issue, I can pretty much guanatee that ZERO DESIGNERS are being affected by the sale of knock-off jerseys...

As the Borg would say (TNG 25th anniversary and all) that's irrelevant. Designers probably aren't being effected by the sale of knockoffs, but the intellectual property is still owned by someone. Be it the league, team, or manufacturer. If you want a San Francisco 49ers jersey and have the money to spend on it, then the 49ers, NFL, and Nike deserve your money. You want a good that they own the rights to. Simple.

By buying a fake you cheat the legit owners of the IP out of money they earned by building and marketing a brand you as a consumer wish to buy into.

Now no doubt someone will say "oh, the league/team/manufacturer is a huge corporation, who cares if they lose money?" To which I respond "yeah, well theft is still theft."

With regards IP theft you're right the whole designer angle is irrelevant. But when a person a couple of posts up claimed it was gonna hurt designers, it kinda ir relevant as it's not truly the case, because sadly designers very very rarely get a percentage from the logo's they produce once they're finished.

Again with regards paying for IP, in this case football jerseys I'm in total agreement. If people want the product they should pay for the real deal. All I'm saying is that the fake trade exists because the price of the real thing is very high, and people cant or wont pay the prices. If Nike or whoever the manufacturer is wanted to end the trade in fakes the simplest and most effective solution would be to make the legitimate product more affordable, but right now they clearly feel the losses they are incurring at the hands of the fake trade are not that great or dont warrant that action.

9erssteve

Most of the people I know own fakes are most definitely able to afford the real thing. Also, PROTIP: Don't buy a jersey full-price. Legit places hold sales all the time. Don't be an enabler of IP theft and stop bringing down the value of some of this boards' members. You do realize teams will pay less for design if they're making less off of it, no?

I own a fake or two as well, and another reason I do is that I dont live in the states and getting acces to LEGIT merchandise can be a TOTAL NIGHTMARE! Seriously, until VERY recently the NFL shop DID NOT ship outside the states, and even when it started doing so we didn't have access to the full range of stuff. Even THIS YEAR, the NFL made a big deal out of it's new NFL-UK shop, but so far each team has only REPLICA jerseys available and only for ONE PLAYER PER TEAM! Again at the end of the day it comes down to the NFL (or whichever league) making IT'S LEGITIMATE product more accessable. Price it right, and make it available everywhere (at the same price - ie exchange rate, NOT swapping dollars for local currency) which in this day and age IS NOT HARD and the demand for knock-offs will fall dramatically OVERNIGHT.

For the record I'm not encouraging the trade in fakes for one second, as a designer I'm not about to encourage IP theft, I understand the consequences it has for the design industry only to well. But this issue exists BECAUSE of the way Sports leagues and apparell manufacturers CHOOSE to price and sell THEIR products. It's nothing to do with the designers! If the Leagues and Manufacturers made different decisions then CONSUMERS would too! But until THEY change how they operate the problem wont go away, and using the whole IP theft argument, or going after the consumer is the wrong way to go about solving it. Giving the consumer the real deal at a BETTER price solves the issue!

It's simple supply and demand, if the legitimate producers wont provide a product at a price consumers feel is appropriate, and lets be honest here THEY DONT, $300 for an authentic jersey is CRAZY when you stop and think about it, they leave themselves open to being undercut by fakers. Clearly the NFL feels the losses they are sustaining at present to the fake jersey trade are negligible because lets be honest they could have come down MUCH harder on it before now, had they really wanted/needed to in oprder to protect their brand and profits.

9erssteve

I wasn't referring to IP theft. Fact is, by purchasing an illegal fake, you are robbing a company of their money. If you were a musician, would you like it if people bought illegal copies of your CD instead of paying you the money for your content? If Derek here has no problem with stealing money off of companies and breaking the law to save a buck, then so be it. But I hope he understands what he's doing and why it's wrong.

It doesn't make it right, but the major sports leagues and apparel manufacturers definitely brought this one upon themselves.

I can agree with this.

That's only true if the person purchasing the jersey has the money to afford a $300 jersey. The reason most people are drawn to knock-off jerseys in the first place is the fact they often come in at about TEN PERCENT the price of a real one!

I genuinely dont think that people buy knock-offs to stop Nike getting their hard earned cash (well certainly not the majority anyway) it's purely a case of being priced out the market. Like you said you agree that the NFL (and other leagues) and the manufacturers have brought it upon themselves, so if they want to fix the problem all they need to do is LOWER the price of the genuine article.

How can they justify $300 for a shirt anyway? It sure as hell doesn't cost anywhere NEAR that to produce, and the first person that gives me the "years of reasearch and development arguement will get laughed down", it's a shirt for pities sake not a super computer or a space probe! If they priced replica's around $50, Limiteds/Premiers around $80 and Authentics at about $100 I can pretty much guarantee they'd still make a profit and pretty much INSTANTLY kill off the knock-off market at the same time as those who buy knock-offs and put up with the flaws would buy the REAL THING, and be happy about it. It's would be win-win.

As for the IP Theft issue, I can pretty much guanatee that ZERO DESIGNERS are being affected by the sale of knock-off jerseys, as I'll bet every designers that's worked on ANY of the logo's used in any sports league today will have been PAID ALREADY. They'll have recieved a one off fee for the entire project and then signed ownership of the logo OVER TO THE TEAM OR LEAGUE. So yeah IP theft has still occured but it wont have hit the designer in the pocket as he/she doesn't receive a percentage of the profits generated from their work anyway.

The problem is easily fixable as I stated above, but large organisations often fail to see the fact that actually reducing costs to consumers and therefore selling more units is often a better way to increase profits than hiring bigger stars to do thier adverts and bumping up the prices of thier products and relying on those already loyal to their brand.

9erssteve

THere's a good t-shirt template on vectorportal.com, under TEMPLATES. It's the one I use.

Off on a slight tangent here I know but has anyone been able to download the red Revolution Football helmet by Crash from the vectorportal site? The link for it is messed up and every time you try to download it you get another version of the Revo helmet by another artist. I tried using the link for the one by the other artist in the hope that the url's had just been switched over by mistake but no such joy.

I appreciate the link may always have been wrong but I'm hoping someone out there may have the one I'm looking for and be willing to share it. If anyone could help out with this one that's be great and much appreciated.

9erssteve