Report: NHL Expanding league, Adding 4 Teams by 2017

[rams80]

Is it "Leafs or nothing", or "NHL or nothing"?

You can't make any projections about a second top-level team based on the prior performance of minor-league teams. They have two separate audiences.

While the Maple Leafs' control of the Maple Leaf Gardens contributed to the franchise's problems, please note how the WHA's Toronto Toros weren't really packing the stands back in the 1970s.

[Cosmic]

Is it "Leafs or nothing", or "NHL or nothing"?

You can't make any projections about a second top-level team based on the prior performance of minor-league teams. They have two separate audiences.

While the Maple Leafs' control of the Maple Leaf Gardens contributed to the franchise's problems, please note how the WHA's Toronto Toros weren't really packing the stands back in the 1970s.

And in the 1970s, Torontonians went down to the "big city" Buffalo to have a good time on weekends. Might as well be a million years ago.

[OMMF]

Has there ever been a 2-team major league market with only NBA and NHL teams? I can't think of one, and for good reason I believe.

Vancouver. But yes, not a good combination.

[CubsFanBudMan]

Has there ever been a 2-team major league market with only NBA and NHL teams? I can't think of one, and for good reason I believe.

Vancouver. But yes, not a good combination.

Thanks! I had that feeling I was missing one, went through as many "recent" expansion teams as I could think of but completely skipped over Memphis/Vancouver.

Might actually be a good comparison for Portland, with MLS subbing for CFL to boot.

[sparkychewbarky]

The Leafs have made millions because they've been a monopoly, and it irks me that their profit from the game of hockey funds their non-hockey ventures of real estate, basketball and soccer.

What? That's how businesses operate. You can make the argument that MLSE has become too big for its own good but criticizing them for acting how any other business of appropriate size would act? The hell? Again, you just seem angry about the fact that the Leafs dared to be popular enough to become this rich. I'm sorry they couldn't stay a family owned business forever :\

As for being a monopoly, welcome to pro sports. The Blackhawks have a monopoly on NHL hockey in Chicago. The Red Wings have a monopoly on NHL hockey in Detroit. Good luck starting up a NBA franchise in Miami.

And as for that monopoly being the reason why the Leafs have made billions? Not that simple. Southern Ontario is the hockey hotbed of the world thanks in large part to the legacy of the Maple Leafs. They did a lot of the leg work needed to make the market so valuable. Them profiting from that? That's how business works. And they're in a situation where they don't have to share that market if they don't want to. So why should they? So some expansion team can leach of them with an identity crafted around a Tim Hortons* or Molson commercial?

*You know, the iconic restaurant chain named after a Maple Leafs great? If you were still questioning the importance of the Leafs to Ontarian culture.

For all the poetic Ontario imagery you used? I'd add the faded Leafs t-shirt in dad's closet. The Dougie Gilmour poster in your friend's garage. The Leafs licence plate the old guy has on his truck. Yes, the team is struggling right now. You know what though? If they do get it together and win it all? I promise you southern Ontario would rise up in support of the team. That seems like it means more then backing some new comers who play on the constructed notion of being the "common man's team" who fights "the establishment." As if the Leafs are somehow evil for being popular enough to morph into a billion dollar enterprise.

So who's being nostalgic now?

At least I'm being nostalgic about something tangible. Not a slew of generic wildlife imagery that's been used to peddle bad beer to us for decades. The wildife/Canadiana imagery is, again, a construct.

I 'm a service tech. My area is the western part of the GTA, Brampton, Malton, Vaughn, Mississauga, parts of Etobicoke.

I go into 4-6 different and varying neighbourhoods every day.

You should ride with me and show me this big blue Leafs nation that you say exists, because I don't see it.

I'm a teacher. I deal with teenagers five days a week. I'm not seeing anything to suggest that the Leafs are in danger of losing their hold on anyone. I see Leafs stickers, binders, sweaters, caps, and t-shirts each and every day.

Is hockey as a whole losing popularity in the GTA? The influx of an immigrant population WILL do that, but that's a case of demographics changing. Not a sign of the Leafs losing their hold on the area's hockey fandom, and not a problem a second NHL team will solve.

As I see it, Ice_Cap, the sporting loyalties of the younger GTA market is up for grabs.

If that is true, I rather they be won over by the team that built hockey into what it is in the region today. A Stanley Cup won by the Toronto Maple Leafs will mean more then a Stanley Cup won by the Ontario Moose. That's just the reality of the situation.

Not only should there be a second S.O. team;

But for the sake of the NHL and for the sake of the game of hockey...there needs to be.

I'm sorry. I find this preposterous. The Leafs being good? That'll be good for the NHL. A second team in southern Ontario? Needed to save the sport of hockey? Hyperbolic doesn't even come close to describing that sentiment.

Geez Ice_Cap, we were having a civil debate and then you go all sarcastic and condescending on me with the above instalment.

I sure hope that's not your teaching style.

I never suggested a team "crafted around a Tim Hortons or Molson commercial".

Don't put words in my mouth.

Yes, I know who Tim Horton was. I saw him play, so get off your frickin' high horse.

I think that "Ontario" is a great choice for part of a 2nd S.O. team monicker. If you don't think so...fine.

You can actually SEE what I'm suggesting for an Ontario team, HERE> "The Battle of Markham" ,and HERE> "4 NHL Teams That Should Be...".

It's a concept that's been pretty well received,

...And it's hardly a friggin' beer commercial.

Anyway, the NHL would be fools to leave the influential, lucrative, and important Southern Ontario market solely in the hands of MLS&E.

As a hockey fan, I say get another NHL franchise into Southern Ontario sooner than later.

Done.

[monkeypower]

I could see a viable option for a team in Hamilton. But I don't like the team being called Ontario though.

I'm also not sure of this whole "David vs Goliath" idea you're trying to push with MLSE and the "Ontario imagery" because it's somewhat vague in regards to being only Ontario and the team doesn't have to tap into local identities for a name. How many Rangers are there in New York? How many Bruins are walking the streets of Boston?

[sparkychewbarky]

I could see a viable option for a team in Hamilton. But I don't like the team being called Ontario though.

I'm also not sure of this whole "David vs Goliath" idea you're trying to push with MLSE and the "Ontario imagery" because it's somewhat vague in regards to being only Ontario and the team doesn't have to tap into local identities for a name. How many Rangers are there in New York? How many Bruins are walking the streets of Boston?

Hi monkey. If a team went to Hamilton, I'd be calling that team, The Hamilton....Whatevers.

The Hamilton name has some familiarity nationally and internationally.

But, you see, I just don't see a team landing in Hamilton because that location sits in the overlap areas of the Sabres and the Leafs.

I actually hope that I'm wrong.

According to Ice_Cap, the Leafs own the Toronto label.

That leaves Ontario.

And the "David vs. Goliath" thing is just one of many spins a marketer might or might not use.

[monkeypower]

I do agree that there couldn't be another team that uses Toronto as the geographical identifier, but Ontario just doesn't sit with me.

Even though I like the Angels using California and the Panthers using Florida so....

[Sport]

I prefer specificity when it comes to the place name (except the Indianapolis Colts would sound better as the Indiana Colts).

It was always weird to hear about a guy going from the Padres to the Angels and reading "he was traded from San Diego to California".

[IceCap]

Geez Ice_Cap, we were having a civil debate and then you go all sarcastic and condescending on me with the above instalment.

I sure hope that's not your teaching style.

Hi. My name's Ice_Cap and I'm the one not criticizing how you do your job based off of an exchange on an internet message board

Though you'd be surprised how easily teenagers take to just a bit of snark. Gotta get them interested in Canadian history after all.

I never suggested a team "crafted around a Tim Hortons or Molson commercial".

Don't put words in my mouth.

You said...

Ontario...lakes, beavers, moose, muskoka chairs, Kawartha "dinner jackets", cottage country, hometown hockey, canoes, camping, bears, wolves, Algonquin Park, Roots, etc. etc.

There's lots of fodder for an identity that would connect with all Ontarians...with a lot of Canadians for that matter.

I think it would have a great vibe.

...which reminds me of this...

I don't feel like I'm putting words in your mouth at all. You and Molson (and Tim Hortons) are drawing from the same constructed national myth that began to take shape in the 1930s, when intellectuals were desperate for anything to call "Canadian" that wasn't British or American. They settled on the wilderness. Which is also American, but we'll all ignore that.

And hey, I enjoy a weeked or week up at the Bruce Peninsula at my grandma's cabin in the summer. It's a great time. It doesn't make me an outdoorsman though, and similar experiences don't make this province a province or outdoorsmen either. I'm not trying to come down hard on Ontario (it's my home, of course I love it) but I'm just trying to scale back the constructed postcard-esque identity building and maybe implore us to see ourselves with a bit more clarity.

Yes, I know who Tim Horton was. I saw him play, so get off your frickin' high horse.

I apologize if I came off as being on a high horse. My point is simply that Tim Horton has become a cultural icon. And he was a Maple Leaf. Which furthers my point that the Leafs are engrained in the culture here. Any team in the same market will always be a distant second because of that.

I think that "Ontario" is a great choice for part of a 2nd S.O. team monicker. If you don't think so...fine.

Well on a basic level you have a team in Toronto, and a team in Ottawa. What gives the third team to the party the right to represent all of Ontario? The two most important locations in the province, the largest city/provincial capital and the national capital, are already spoken for.

A team in Kitchener-Waterloo/Cambridge would bring up the question of what the name would be, but I honestly don't see that happening.

You can actually SEE what I'm suggesting for an Ontario team, HERE> "The Battle of Markham" ,and HERE> "4 NHL Teams That Should Be...".

It's a concept that's been pretty well received,

...And it's hardly a friggin' beer commercial.

I've seen your work. It's good work. I've never found issue with anything you've done on the conceptual level. You're one of the more talented providers of concepts we have.

Anyway, the NHL would be fools to leave the influential, lucrative, and important Southern Ontario market solely in the hands of MLS&E.

Have we all forgotten 1993-2004? Good teams, regular playoff appearances. Under the MLSE banner. It isn't like MLSE is unable to put together a good team. They are. There's nothing inherent about MLSE that stops that from happening. The problem is just that they haven't had the right people on the hockey side of things. I'm frustrated too, but I don't think a championship-quality Leafs team is impossible under MLSE. They've proven they can do it. It's just a matter of them getting back to that.

On the business side of things? MLSE continues to make money hand over fist, even when the team is terrible. The NHL is probably more then happy with how MLSE has managed the southern Ontario hockey market.

You often call MLSE/the Leafs "fat cats." Despite the fact that any second team in southern Ontario would have to be owned by someone or a group of people with deep pockets. It speaks to the contrivance of the "David vs Goliath" thing (because both ownership groups would be wealthy beyond belief). I also don't see why the Maple Leafs should be shamed for having built a sporting and business empire that's been so successful.

As a hockey fan, I say get another NHL franchise into Southern Ontario sooner than later.

I don't think it's a bad idea. It would certainly be better then having teams in an Arizona stripmall and a Florida swamp. It would probably be a financially viable franchise. I just don't see them being anything more then the Clippers. And the Clippers make lots of money.

According to Ice_Cap, the Leafs own the Toronto label.

Well they do, but that doesn't mean another team can't use it. The Rangers owned the New York label in the NHL. The Lakers owned the Los Angeles label in the NBA. Having a second team use the Toronto label wouldn't be out there. I'd prefer a second southern Ontario team be in Hamilton, but a second Toronto team wouldn't be a problem either.

Kitchener-Waterloo/Cambridge I don't see happening because the money's just not here. Blackberry is...well...not what it once was. The cities are just sort of suburban sprawls. I see anyone eyeing southern Ontario going for a larger, more centralized urban area and paying the Leafs (and possibly Sabres) whatever is necessary to make it happen.

[The_Admiral]

As a "more centralized urban area," I can't get a read on Hamilton at all. You look at pictures from atop the escarpment and it looks like a modern mid-major city:

But then you start poking around on Street View where you think downtown should be and there's no there there. It actually has a main street called "Main Street," bless its heart, but it's mostly just Tim Hortons and bungalows. It reminds me of Hartford, in a way.

[IceCap]

Well it's a sliding scale. Hamilton's more centralized then Kitchener-Waterloo/Cambridge, an urban area so sprawling it covers three cities.

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, Cambridge looks just like the exurban nowherelands of Chicago, Milwaukee, and presumably the rest of the midwest. In retrospect, moving the Coyotes there would have been just as fraught with infrastructural concerns as Glendale: there don't seem to be many major expressways going into, out of, or around this whole area. The driving would have really sucked for most people.

[Cosmic]

As a "more centralized urban area," I can't get a read on Hamilton at all. You look at pictures from atop the escarpment and it looks like a modern mid-major city:

... and you drive by on the QEW, it looks like the whole city is like the factory where they melted the T-1000 in T2: Judgment Day.

[The_Admiral]

The majesty of beavers drinking coffee in wooden deck chairs, huh.

[IceCap]

Yeah, Cambridge looks just like the exurban nowherelands of Chicago, Milwaukee, and presumably the rest of the midwest. In retrospect, moving the Coyotes there would have been just as fraught with infrastructural concerns as Glendale: there don't seem to be many major expressways going into, out of, or around this whole area. The driving would have really sucked for most people.

Cambridge is a pain to get to, and I live in the same metro area!

[monkeypower]

The one thing I thought was quaint about Hamilton is that Ivor Wynne Stadium/Tim Hortons Field is located smack dab in the middle of a neighbourhood.

Some people have a school or a park out in front of their house, some have a professional football stadium.

[dbadefense1990]

As a "more centralized urban area," I can't get a read on Hamilton at all. You look at pictures from atop the escarpment and it looks like a modern mid-major city:

... and you drive by on the QEW, it looks like the whole city is like the factory where they melted the T-1000 in T2: Judgment Day.

I concurrently agree.

[sparkychewbarky]

As a "more centralized urban area," I can't get a read on Hamilton at all. You look at pictures from atop the escarpment and it looks like a modern mid-major city:

... and you drive by on the QEW, it looks like the whole city is like the factory where they melted the T-1000 in T2: Judgment Day.

The majesty of beavers drinking coffee in wooden deck chairs, huh.

That's good admiral...a little too easy, but good.

However, I stated that I'd use the "Ontario" slant on all potential 2nd S.O. locations except Hamilton.

Hamilton has enough history on its own to be all-Hamilton in its identity.

In fact the possible option I've heard and like the most is the "Hamilton Flying Tigers"....a nod to the old team, a reference to the great aircraft museum and aviation history that Hamilton has, and it joins in on the theme of Tigertown. The possible downside to that name would be the fact that it's better known in the context of Claire Chennault's "Flying Tigers" of WW2, but maybe that could be turned into a positive.

But you're right about the difficulty in "getting a read" on the city.

Unfortunately, most people breeze by Hamilton on the Q.E. which skirts the city's "steel" end. It's not very pretty.

...But man, on a clear day, when you're coming down Hwy. 6, and you slip over the edge of the escarpment at Clappison's Corners, Hamilton emerges like a mini Vancouver.

You've got the backdrop of the escarpment, with Hamilton Harbour in front.

It's quite impressive.

[Jer15]

The one thing I thought was quaint about Hamilton is that Ivor Wynne Stadium/Tim Hortons Field is located smack dab in the middle of a neighbourhood.

Some people have a school or a park out in front of their house, some have a professional football stadium.

For all the times I've been to Ivor Wynne/Tim Horton's field I still can't get over that. A close friend of mine (and Argo's season seat holder) lives down the street. I always park in her driveway and we just take a stroll over to the stadium. Cool, but weird.