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Alternate SPORTS! History Thread

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First, I don't think the North Stars would have won the cup in 1999. But maybe I just choose to believe that.

What makes you say that?

It's six years later on a team that has spent at least part of that whining for more arena upgrades/new arena and not needing to please a "new to hockey" fanbase by winning. The North Stars, like the Wild, were pretty mediocre throughout their existence. It's kinda like on movies where someone goes back and time and crushes a bug; everything changes. It's hard to say what would have been different in Minnesota, but I suspect it would have.

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First, I don't think the North Stars would have won the cup in 1999. But maybe I just choose to believe that.

What makes you say that?

It's six years later on a team that has spent at least part of that whining for more arena upgrades/new arena and not needing to please a "new to hockey" fanbase by winning. The North Stars, like the Wild, were pretty mediocre throughout their existence. It's kinda like on movies where someone goes back and time and crushes a bug; everything changes. It's hard to say what would have been different in Minnesota, but I suspect it would have.

I love your definition of the Butterfly effect. I'd like to choose to use that definition from now on.

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Mine include

  • College
    • What if the South would have won the Civil War.

This is interesting because you have to wonder if Football makes it beyond the Confederate border because its viewed as a "Yankee Sport." Because football began in the Northeast its plausible that the CSA never really accepts it in the form that it was at the time. Or maybe they latch onto another form of Football to be different like Rugby or Soccer. Maybe there are rules changes like how Canadian Football is different than American. Or even maybe the World's Biggest Cocktail party is all about watching a baseball game?

Obviously changing the Civil War changes a ton of sports related things today, but it certainly makes you wonder how sports that were invented or gained traction in free states after the Civil War would have been received in the South.

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^^^

Actually, I did not even think about other sports...just college football, which is so dominant in the South...but baseball is another one. It took a long time for MLB to get to the south. I suppose it could be a fringe sport in the CSA. And hockey? Forget it.

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Here's some hockey ones I haven't seen mentioned... starting with:

1. What if, because Clarence Campbell refused to expand the NHL - the WHL and AHL had completed their merger in 1965 and gotten the better TV deal? As it is they played an interlocking schedule in 1965-66 as the precursor to a full merger, but 24 hours after that agreement was announced Clarence Campbell got off his stubborn ass and the gears started turning resulting in the Second Six.

Here's the AHL/WHL markets in 1965:

AHL East

Quebec Aces

Springfield Indians

Providence Reds

Hershey Bears

Baltimore Clippers

AHL West

Rochester Americans

Buffalo Bisons

Pittsburgh Hornets

Cleveland Barons

WHL

Vancouver Canucks

Victoria Maple Leafs

Seattle Totems

Portland Buckaroos

San Francisco Seals

Los Angeles Blades

As a point of reference, the following WHL teams were added in subsequent years (partially in response to the NHL invading their previous markets)

1966 - San Diego Gulls

1967 - Phoenix Roadrunners

1968 - Denver Spurs

1969 - Salt Lake Golden Eagles

I think a reasonably successful AHL/WHL merger prevents the WHA from happening.

Complicating this is the fact that the middle America markets were in the CHL, which was controlled by the NHL. This includes (at various times around this moment) the Twin Cities, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Houston. You might have seen the NHL take these markets for their eventual expansion instead (two of which they did, obviously).

2. What if the Stanley Cup stewards didn't roll over for their NHL masters and the legal AHA Cup challenges in the 20's-30s were allowed to be played? Would there be in Stanley Cup banner hanging in Tulsa? Would the AHA have continued as a (relative) western major league through WW2 and developed an AL/NL-type relationship like MLB?

3. What if the Cleveland Barons jumped to the NHL in 50's and became #7? There was a fair bit of talk about it, and IIRC it was Cleveland that said no thanks.

NBA/ABA:

4. What if the Peoria Cat(erpillar)s and Phillips 66ers had accepted the invitation to join the NBA in 1952? The 66ers were based in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, but played a fair number of their home games in Tulsa and OKC. Both teams had the talent (if not the market) to compete in the NBA. I haven't given Peoria much thought, but I suspect the 66ers would have eventually moved to Tulsa, or at least had some sort of Green Bay/Milwaukee type relationship between Bartlesville and Tulsa.

5. What if the Denver Rockets had started in Kansas City as initially planned? Which league would have added Denver, and where would Cincy have ended up?

6. What if the MISL Kansas City Comets weren't so much more popular they got a substantially better lease than the Kings in the early 80s, helping precipitate the sale and relocation to Sacto?

NFL/AFL

7. Has anyone pondered the AFL keeping Minnesota instead of shifting it to Oakland? Would Oakland have ever gotten a team in either league (as it is they didn't play IN Oakland until their third season)?

8. What about the Hilton keeping the Chargers in Los Angeles? Which league would go to San Diego first?

MLB

9. What if Charlie O. had managed to move the Kansas City A's to Louisville, Dallas, Denver, or Seattle in the years preceding their move to Oakland? He was always threatening to move them somewhere...

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Mine include

  • College
    • What if the South would have won the Civil War.

This is interesting because you have to wonder if Football makes it beyond the Confederate border because its viewed as a "Yankee Sport." Because football began in the Northeast its plausible that the CSA never really accepts it in the form that it was at the time. Or maybe they latch onto another form of Football to be different like Rugby or Soccer. Maybe there are rules changes like how Canadian Football is different than American. Or even maybe the World's Biggest Cocktail party is all about watching a baseball game?

Obviously changing the Civil War changes a ton of sports related things today, but it certainly makes you wonder how sports that were invented or gained traction in free states after the Civil War would have been received in the South.

I could see this... sort of how in Australia, Sydney plays rugby and Melbourne plays footy.

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4. What if the Peoria Cat(erpillar)s and Phillips 66ers had accepted the invitation to join the NBA in 1952? The 66ers were based in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, but played a fair number of their home games in Tulsa and OKC. Both teams had the talent (if not the market) to compete in the NBA. I haven't given Peoria much thought, but I suspect the 66ers would have eventually moved to Tulsa, or at least had some sort of Green Bay/Milwaukee type relationship between Bartlesville and Tulsa.

Interesting scenario with the 66ers. The Kings split home games between Kansas City and Omaha for awhile, and the Bucks played some home games in Madison and Green Bay in their early days, so such a thing wouldn't be entirely unheard of.

Peoria probably would've went the way of Rochester and Syracuse though, and eventually found their way to a bigger market (Chicago? Maybe Milwaukee after the Hawks left?).

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4. What if the Peoria Cat(erpillar)s and Phillips 66ers had accepted the invitation to join the NBA in 1952? The 66ers were based in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, but played a fair number of their home games in Tulsa and OKC. Both teams had the talent (if not the market) to compete in the NBA. I haven't given Peoria much thought, but I suspect the 66ers would have eventually moved to Tulsa, or at least had some sort of Green Bay/Milwaukee type relationship between Bartlesville and Tulsa.

Interesting scenario with the 66ers. The Kings split home games between Kansas City and Omaha for awhile, and the Bucks played some home games in Madison and Green Bay in their early days, so such a thing wouldn't be entirely unheard of.

Peoria probably would've went the way of Rochester and Syracuse though, and probably eventually found their way to a bigger market (Chicago? Maybe Milwaukee after the Hawks left?).

IIRC the Kings drew better in Omaha, actually (though I think it was for only 12-15 games a season, with the rest in KC). Peoria to Milwaukee or Chicago makes sense, depending on the window.

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First, I don't think the North Stars would have won the cup in 1999. But maybe I just choose to believe that.

What makes you say that?

It's six years later on a team that has spent at least part of that whining for more arena upgrades/new arena and not needing to please a "new to hockey" fanbase by winning. The North Stars, like the Wild, were pretty mediocre throughout their existence. It's kinda like on movies where someone goes back and time and crushes a bug; everything changes. It's hard to say what would have been different in Minnesota, but I suspect it would have.

But IF they had gotten into the Target Center, they wouldn't be concerned about an arena anymore. Who knows if Eddie Belfour or Brett Hull would've come to Minnesota if the Stars were still there instead of Dallas. They still would have drafted Iginla and traded him for Nieuwendyk, Still drafted Lehtinen, Hatcher, Langenbrunner. Traded for Sydor and Zubov. Modano was there. The big keys obviously were Belfour who backstopped them to a Cup, and Hull who scored the 'winner'. I don't think location would make that much of a difference if the team was contending for a Cup. Belfour played in Chicago and Toronto, so I don't think climate was much of a factor for him. Same can be said for Hull, although he didn't have much of a choice in Calgary. Detroit and St. Louis aren't as cold as Minnesota, but like I said, the Cup was within reach. I still say they do it.

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What if the Denver Rockets had started in Kansas City as initially planned? Which league would have added Denver, and where would Cincy have ended up?

If the KC team would have been as stable as the Denver team was (and didn't move by 1972), maybe the Silna Brothers buy the Royals, and turn them into the Spirits of St. Louis.

What if the Cleveland Barons jumped to the NHL in 50's and became #7? There was a fair bit of talk about it, and IIRC it was Cleveland that said no thanks.

I heard that the NHL strung them along, and then pulled the rug out from under them at the end. If they let them in, though, I heard that Cleveland had a good enough team to win a Cup in the 50's, and maybe they are so successful that they are there today, which may have butterflied the Cavs away.

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What if the Denver Rockets had started in Kansas City as initially planned? Which league would have added Denver, and where would Cincy have ended up?

If the KC team would have been as stable as the Denver team was (and didn't move by 1972), maybe the Silna Brothers buy the Royals, and turn them into the Spirits of St. Louis.

What if the Cleveland Barons jumped to the NHL in 50's and became #7? There was a fair bit of talk about it, and IIRC it was Cleveland that said no thanks.

I heard that the NHL strung them along, and then pulled the rug out from under them at the end. If they let them in, though, I heard that Cleveland had a good enough team to win a Cup in the 50's, and maybe they are so successful that they are there today, which may have butterflied the Cavs away.

If the Silnas buy the Royals, what becomes of the Carolina Cougars? :upside:

I could well be misremembering the Barons story.

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I'm surprised Cleveland wasn't an original 6, or 7 team. It was one of the biggest cities in the U.S. at the time and just about smack in the middle of the Original 6 teams. Same with Philadelphia. Almost seems like it should have been an Original 8: Montreal, Toronto, Chicago, Boston, NYR, Philadelphia, Detroit, Cleveland.

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Philly had (briefly) the Quakers in the days before the Original Six settled out. You also had Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Hamilton, Ottawa, Quebec, and second franchises in New York and Montreal.

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If the Silnas buy the Royals, what becomes of the Carolina Cougars? :upside:

I could well be misremembering the Barons story.

Who knows. Maybe they move to Denver instead.

Has anyone pondered the AFL keeping Minnesota instead of shifting it to Oakland? Would Oakland have ever gotten a team in either league (as it is they didn't play IN Oakland until their third season)?

Good point. The Vikes could have been an AFL team, and Seattle would have been one of the original AFL teams if Willard Rhodes was allowed to have his team play in Husky Stadium.

Then, you have LA (Chargers) and NY (Titans, later Jets), and then Buffalo would have been the last team, with Boston left out in the cold.

Maybe Boston would have been given the other NFL expansion team that was given to Minnesota.

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If the Silnas buy the Royals, what becomes of the Carolina Cougars? :upside:

I could well be misremembering the Barons story.

Who knows. Maybe they move to Denver instead.

Has anyone pondered the AFL keeping Minnesota instead of shifting it to Oakland? Would Oakland have ever gotten a team in either league (as it is they didn't play IN Oakland until their third season)?

Good point. The Vikes could have been an AFL team, and Seattle would have been one of the original AFL teams if Willard Rhodes was allowed to have his team play in Husky Stadium.

Then, you have LA (Chargers) and NY (Titans, later Jets), and then Buffalo would have been the last team, with Boston left out in the cold.

Maybe Boston would have been given the other NFL expansion team that was given to Minnesota.

How I see this (NFL and AFL as of 1960)

NFL: New York Giants, Washington Redskins, Philadelphia Eagles, Dallas Cowboys (recent expansion), Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh Steelers, St. Louis Cardinals, Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions, Green Bay Packers, Los Angeles Rams and San Francisco 49ers. (Boston Patriots become an NFL expansion in 1961)

AFL: New York Titans, Los Angeles Chargers, Houston Oilers, Buffalo Bills, Minnesota Vikings and Dallas Texans. Cincinnati and Miami join the AFL as normal. Oakland and another team joins to make it a 10-team AFL (maybe Seattle 10 years early), all 10 transfer to the NFL in the NFL-AFL merger.

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Denver would still be a part of the AFL, and Seattle would also be one of the other two original eight AFL teams. Oakland probably gets left out in the cold.

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Whoops, I was forgetting Denver. Had a feeling I was forgetting a team...

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What if Shawn Kemp ever bought a box of condoms?

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What if Shawn Kemp ever bought a box of condoms?

At least one small Seattle suburb wouldn't exist.

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What if Boise State didn't lose to Nevada and had a true shot at the National Championship?

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