Chicageaux

2014 NCAA Football Thread

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You had students rioting in defence of Paterno even after the full extent of his culpability had been exposed.

I'll give you the students rioting was a disgrace, but what culpability was exposed to full extent? He did the right thing and informed his higher ups since HE NEVER SAW WHAT HAPPENED. Here is a new name to put to that list of people you said Hell was made for...McQueary...M c Q u e a r y...say it with me Meh Queer ee. You know....the guy who actually saw something.
So according to you Paterno had no moral obligation to contact the police and inform them that one of his subordinates witnessed Jerry Sundusky sexually assaulting a child?

Those weren't kids directly connected to to the football team. They were business, history, poli-sci, biology, psychology, etc... majors who were deeply invested in the myth Paterno cultivated for himself and for the football program.

Apparently so are you.
No, I just don't like seeing wrongs go unpunished. Paterno's inaction allowed a child predator to continue to hurt children. Again...the fact that you care more about how that affects Paterno's legacy then the children who were victimized says oh so much about you as a person.

The fact that you want to pin this all on a head coach says ALOT about your optics and psychology.

Are you actually reading his posts?

Not sure how you came to this conclusion...

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You seem to think that I'm only laying the blame at Paterno's feet. I'm not. I blame him for both turning a blind eye to Sandusky's crimes and for fostering an atmosphere where anything that could have harmed the reputation of the football team at PSU was swept under the rug.

How could Joe turn a blind eye to something that he never saw, or does that just get in the way of your blind rage.

That being said? You're right. Paterno wasn't the only one who was in the wrong here. And I hold every single person who "dropped the ball" just as responsible as I hold Paterno.

I never said Joe was in the wrong. I said if I were Joe I would have handled it differently, and had that happened it is possible that the same outcome would have occurred. Joe handled it by telling the people who he thought could have handled it better.

My focus on Paterno in this thread is due to the fact that the story in question is centred around him. If/when someone else who was involved in this cover-up is given a simple slap on the wrists I will react with the same moral outrage I have here.

So you had moral outrage when the DA screwed up, the child services TWICE investigated Sandy and found nothing, the police, the Big 3 for THEIR cover up, McQ not acting. You must be morally outraged out by now.

See, I don't hate Joe Paterno because of some fixation you seem to think I have with Penn State. No, I find Paterno reprehensible because children were being victimized under his watch and he failed to protect them when he had the opportunity.

WOW! So Joe not only knew this has happening, he knew when this was happening as well? I think you have Joe and God mixed up not me.

Something else you may wish to consider. Recognizing that Paterno wasn't the only guilty party here doesn't absolve him of his guilt.

Guilt? You have twisted logic because if I have read the court documents, and I have read all of them, Joe was the only one to actually REPORT an incident that was passed on to him by McQ to the higher ups. McQ didn't go and report it to the uppers or even the police. Joe (you know he was covering this up for the program and all) reported it. Now does that sound like a guy who is covering up for a Pedo and, something to consider, a person Joe didn't even like?

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There's a reason this is one of my top ten favorite sports memories

Ohio_U_upsets_Penn_State_20120901163903_

My alma mater, representing the rest of the country in Penn State's first game since the news, went into State College and won. It was grand.

Sorry but OU did not represent the rest of the country. In fact, they can't even say they represent the state of Ohio. That little team in the center of Ohio does that, but can still be proud of OU.

It's mindboggling people still defend Joe Paterno.

What is mind boggling is that people believe Joe was the president, dean, committee, trustees, professor, TA, grounds crew, etc...of PSU.

He had too much power and his priorities, and as a result the priorites of PSU and State College, PA, were thrown way out of whack. There are more important things than football and a lot of people in that part of the country lost sight of that.

He was the head football coach. He wasn't there to end world hunger, he wasn't there to stop the Iraq War, he wasn't there to end police brutality. He was there to coach the team and made sure the guys went to classes. I'm sure that makes no difference since he knew all, saw all, and controlled all that he surveyed. And, this will blow your mind, he actually DID know there was more to life than football as he and his family donated MILLIONS of dollars back to the university for educational purposes.

He didn't do the right thing.

You mean reporting what McQ said to him? Cause from what has been documented by numerous authorities Joe did what Joe could only do? He went to his higher ups and told them what McQ told him. Is that not clear, cause I think a lot of people are not grasping the law and order of a situation like this.

Maybe vacating wins is a little silly, but it was a punishment for the culture that allowed the crimes to occur.

Okay, how could they let crimes occur when there were no crimes committed? Now if Sandusky was arrested, charged, sentenced, served, paroled, and PSU hired him back and he did the same thing again THEN you can make that statement. Remember, there were numerous investigations from different agencies and they found nothing.

Remember, Sandusky retired mysteriously in the late 90's so Paterno knew something yet still allowed the monster to bring kids around the facilities. Yeah, sorry, that's not okay with me.

Yeah, again, Joe and God are one in the same. Sandy didn't retire mysteriously, he left cause Joe told him he wouldn't succeed him as head coach. Also, it was not up to Joe who could be on campus. And again, if Joe knew then why would he allow Sandy on campus after he was no longer with the football program?

Yes, Mike McQueary should've beat the :censored: out of Sandusky the second he saw him in the shower and he should've held his knee on his throat until the cops showed up.

I agree, but unfortunately that didn't happen. McQ is the real coward in this matter.

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So the hockey team wore "409" on thier helmets tonight. Yeah the temporary NCAA punishment really gave them some perspective. They are not tone deaf at all.

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Now does that sound like a guy who is covering up for a Pedo and, something to consider, a person Joe didn't even like?

Is this meant to imply that Paterno didn't like Sandusky? His DC that was given an emeritus title and carte blanche access to the facilities after his retirement from the team?

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So the hockey team wore "409" on thier helmets tonight. Yeah the temporary NCAA punishment really gave them some perspective. They are not tone deaf at all.

Why not celebrate? It's not like they wore "409" for the last two years.

EDIT: Also, I was going to try to not get involved, as I have been in this argument very many times, but hey, the people that needed to be punished were punished. The NCAA, along with legal authorities, did what they did. You don't think everyone involved was punished? Well, I for one think jobs (and freedom, at that) are pretty important. I don't really see how Paterno had too much power. Hell, Alabama bought Saban a house. The reason it may seem like Paterno had too much power is maybe his importance at the University. Well, he was also a big supporter of the school itself, not just the athletic department. That's more than you can say for a lot of other coaches. Do I think Paterno was in the wrong? Yes. But he wasn't 100% guilty. He told his superiors of the incident after he was notified as a third party, since he did not witness the crime. He didn't notify the police, but he still notified someone that he should have. Penn State, the state of Pennsylvania itself, and Penn State alum/fans everywhere faced their humiliation after the incident, and will continue to be poked fun at. The people involved faced their punishments. The petty act of taking Paterno's wins away was now reversed. Can we get over it now?

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To play Devil's advocate and get some clarity for myself, what exactly did Joe know about Sandusky? From everything I've read to this point, he knew what McQuery saw and from that could have probably guessed that something about Sandusky was wrong, but not much else. If Joe or the higher ups didn't witness anything themselves, and nothing I've read or seen says that they had, then they can't have -knowingly- enabled a pedophile, right? Without any evidence other than McQuery's it would have just been suspicion and hearsay and you don't cut ties with a guy based on suspicion of no victims come forward. Maybe you watch him a little closer and don't allow him to be alone with kids, but nobody had enough evidence to do anything more than that. Add the fact that all investigations -which were probably little more than asking Sandusky if he did anything wrong- turned up nothing and no arrest was made and...what would you have him, or the school, do? Fire him? Based on what? Ban him from use of school facilities? Based on what? Again, from everything I've seen, these were rumors at the time, not the facts we know today.

You know what I don't hear or read about is the parent's reaction or responsibility, the investigators who missed all the signs -or flat out ignored them- when they were apparently plain as day, any other people who were part of Sandusky's program who would have been around him and witnessed his interactions with kids and would have noticed inappropriate behavior...the list goes on of people in a better position to have caught Sandusky or stopped him and didn't, but we don't even know their names.

One last thing: someone mentioned that a paid team of investigators found that Joe knew about Sandusky and turned a blind eye...I don't doubt that they did. Just like I don't doubt that the paid investigators who questioned people at the NFL headquarters about the Ray Rice elevator tape found that the NFL never knew what was on it or had ever received it /sarcasm. I don't trust it.

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So the hockey team wore "409" on thier helmets tonight. Yeah the temporary NCAA punishment really gave them some perspective. They are not tone deaf at all.

I'm not shocked by that and wouldn't expect anything less from Penn State.

Last night I watched part of the Penn State 365 Documentary they have on Hulu and the issue of how much responsibility the football program should bare for Sandusky's actions didn't even come up.

This is why I've been done with college football. Its not just a few small minded school Presidents, or an inept NCAA that's causing this, or coaches who will do anything to nail that five star recruit. Its the fans as well that are breeding this culture of winning at all costs.

I don't think you need any further proof of that then how defensive Penn State has been of Joe Paterno and the football program. You can do anything you want so long as you don't mess with the football program and that's the problem. After Sandusky himself, that's the biggest reason of why this was allowed to happen. If the school had put in even a tenth of the effort to look into his actions as they have to restore Joe Paterno's win/loss record Sandusky would have been revealed as the monster he is a long time ago.

The NCAA fined the school $60 million. I think the Penn State would have gladly taken $100 million fine over no fine at all, but the program is shut down for a year.

The criticism of Happy Valley right now is that it's a community that cares more about Penn State's win/loss record then the welfare of children. I think that is a valid criticism, and its not the only community like that. Steubenville and Torrington are on that list to and I'm sure there are far more on that list that I didn't mention, we don't know about, or have simply been lucky to never have been put in that type of situation.

Simply put its the ugliest aspect of sports that exists in this country. Something that ultimately matters so little can wind up meaning so much to people to the point that it can disillusion people over what's really important.

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Can we just quit beating this dead horse?? Really??

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Now does that sound like a guy who is covering up for a Pedo and, something to consider, a person Joe didn't even like?

Is this meant to imply that Paterno didn't like Sandusky? His DC that was given an emeritus title and carte blanche access to the facilities after his retirement from the team?
Paterno didn't like Jerry as a person, and as for Jerry's emeritus title you will have to look at the PSU presidents Spanier and Erickson since they were the ones who gave it to him. Joe had nothing to do with it.

Can we just quit beating this dead horse?? Really??

I really wish we could believe me I wish we could.

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Last night I watched part of the Penn State 365 Documentary they have on Hulu and the issue of how much responsibility the football program should bare for Sandusky's actions didn't even come up.

The football program did not make Sandy a Pedophile and it did not make him rape boys. Jerry is a sick individual who is now in prison for HIS actions.

This is why I've been done with college football. Its not just a few small minded school Presidents, or an inept NCAA that's causing this, or coaches who will do anything to nail that five star recruit. Its the fans as well that are breeding this culture of winning at all costs.

I don't think you need any further proof of that then how defensive Penn State has been of Joe Paterno and the football program. You can do anything you want so long as you don't mess with the football program and that's the problem. After Sandusky himself, that's the biggest reason of why this was allowed to happen.

Are you talking about the same PSU that fired JoePa based on report they (the Board of Trustees) hired someone to do? And again that phrase "allowed to happen" comes up. How could they allow something to happen when there were investigations from agencies that handle such issues and they found nothing? Again, Sandusky is the one who raped boys, not the football program, not Joe. Jerry Sandusky is the one tried and sentenced in a court of law. The court of public opinion will always be open and an ongoing case.....unfortunately.

The criticism of Happy Valley right now is that it's a community that cares more about Penn State's win/loss record then the welfare of children. I think that is a valid criticism, and its not the only community like that. Steubenville and Torrington are on that list to and I'm sure there are far more on that list that I didn't mention, we don't know about, or have simply been lucky to never have been put in that type of situation.

I have to disagree with you that all they care about is W's and L's. I say this because PSU accepted the punishment and made changes to a lot of areas within and outside the campus. They still have some changes to do and there are still trials coming up. This was something that happened in a place you would never expect it to happen. I can tell you that every time I read a new account of what Sandusky did the blood from my face ran and I had sensations of shock as to what I was reading. This happened in an area that I have ALOT of relatives still living in and I couldn't imagine this happening.....but it did....and I had to accept it at a personal level. As for those other places you mentioned, or anywhere else for that matter, I hope they never have to go through anything like this.

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There's a reason this is one of my top ten favorite sports memories

Ohio_U_upsets_Penn_State_20120901163903_

My alma mater, representing the rest of the country in Penn State's first game since the news, went into State College and won. It was grand.

Sorry but OU did not represent the rest of the country. In fact, they can't even say they represent the state of Ohio. That little team in the center of Ohio does that, but can still be proud of OU.

They damn sure did that day.

Please tell me you're not an Ohio State alum.

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Now does that sound like a guy who is covering up for a Pedo and, something to consider, a person Joe didn't even like?

Is this meant to imply that Paterno didn't like Sandusky? His DC that was given an emeritus title and carte blanche access to the facilities after his retirement from the team?
Paterno didn't like Jerry as a person, and as for Jerry's emeritus title you will have to look at the PSU presidents Spanier and Erickson since they were the ones who gave it to him. Joe had nothing to do with it.

I just have a hard time believing that at that point in Paterno's career, he would have kept around for 20 years a major assistant coach that he didn't like or that he wouldn't have spoken up about his emeritus title or the other perks given to him in retirement that he hadn't necessarily earned. That seems like revisionist history at its finest.

I think Spanier, Curly and the psychologist John Seasock are the biggest villains in this whole thing (other than Sandusky, naturally). Spanier, at least, is facing a perjury trial. He certainly knew what was up, and sought to cover things up. John Seasock gave a second opinion on a damning police file in 1998 that included ridiculous things like (paraphrasing) "I have never heard of a 50something man becoming a pedophile." The DA said that his report made it too difficult for them to press charges. I think that's where most of the blame lies for the coverup. At the same time, I think Paterno should have done more. This is part of the testimony he gave about the McQueary incident:

Q: Without getting into any graphic detail, what did Mr. McQueary tell you he had seen and where?
Mr. Paterno: Well, he had seen a person, an older ā€” not an older, but a mature person who was fondling, whatever you might call it ā€” Iā€™m not sure what the term would be ā€” a young boy.
Q: Did he identify who that older person was?
Mr. Paterno: Yes, a man by the name of Jerry Sandusky who had been one of our coaches, was not at the time.

That incident was around ten years before the scandal broke. I mean, the next time he saw Sandusky around, he probably should have been like, "So, ah, heard you were touching a little boy in the shower?!? Doesn't seem-- I'm not sure what the term would be-- wrong to you?!?!" There doesn't seem to be anyone with knowledge of the situation that acted properly... indicated by the fact that there were multiple people who knew what was going on, but it was years before anything really came of it.

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There's a reason this is one of my top ten favorite sports memories

Ohio_U_upsets_Penn_State_20120901163903_

My alma mater, representing the rest of the country in Penn State's first game since the news, went into State College and won. It was grand.

Sorry but OU did not represent the rest of the country. In fact, they can't even say they represent the state of Ohio. That little team in the center of Ohio does that, but can still be proud of OU.

They damn sure did that day.

Please tell me you're not an Ohio State alum.

People all over the country were rooting for the Bobcats that day. Penn State was the enemy. Sorry about the truth.

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There's a reason this is one of my top ten favorite sports memories

Ohio_U_upsets_Penn_State_20120901163903_

My alma mater, representing the rest of the country in Penn State's first game since the news, went into State College and won. It was grand.

Sorry but OU did not represent the rest of the country. In fact, they can't even say they represent the state of Ohio. That little team in the center of Ohio does that, but can still be proud of OU.

They damn sure did that day.

Please tell me you're not an Ohio State alum.

People all over the country were rooting for the Bobcats that day. Penn State was the enemy. Sorry about the truth.

People argue on this board about the country being behind the Yankees in 2001... you can't win.

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Can we just quit beating this dead horse?? Really??

The NCAA just caved and removed a punishment which, while normally meaningless, was actually meaningful based on the yelping of the Paterno camp.

And it was a fitting punishment. Paterno was the Big Man on Campus, and even if all he needed to do was kick the problem upstairs, an ethical, honorable human being would probably have followed up on that with the administration at least once or twice. All indications are he didn't even do that.

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The penalty might have been a little harsh if the wins were taken away from Paterno specifically, but they were taken away from the school; Paterno is just the person most affected by it. The school itself was 1,000% guilty. I completely agree with stripping all of their wins from the 1998 coverup onwards.

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Can we just quit beating this dead horse?? Really??

The NCAA just caved and removed a punishment which, while normally meaningless, was actually meaningful based on the yelping of the Paterno camp.

And it was a fitting punishment. Paterno was the Big Man on Campus, and even if all he needed to do was kick the problem upstairs, an ethical, honorable human being would probably have followed up on that with the administration at least once or twice. All indications are he didn't even do that.

And he didn't even go to all of the proper authorities. The sane and proper response when confronted with allegations of such an act occurring would be to immediately pick up the phone and call the police. Paterno failed to do that. He is responsible for those rapes continuing because he didn't do what he was morally obligated to do. You don't go to your boss and report it. You don't go to someone who has a vested interest in covering up something that would reflect poorly on your employer. You do your damn job as a human being and you call the cops.

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Can we just quit beating this dead horse?? Really??

The NCAA just caved and removed a punishment which, while normally meaningless, was actually meaningful based on the yelping of the Paterno camp.

And it was a fitting punishment. Paterno was the Big Man on Campus, and even if all he needed to do was kick the problem upstairs, an ethical, honorable human being would probably have followed up on that with the administration at least once or twice. All indications are he didn't even do that.

And he didn't even go to all of the proper authorities. The sane and proper response when confronted with allegations of such an act occurring would be to immediately pick up the phone and call the police. Paterno failed to do that. He is responsible for those rapes continuing because he didn't do what he was morally obligated to do. You don't go to your boss and report it. You don't go to someone who has a vested interest in covering up something that would reflect poorly on your employer. You do your damn job as a human being and you call the cops.

To paraphrase Herm Edwards at the time: this is not an office issue. There is no office hierarchical protacol. It is a police matter.

A bunch of people reporting it up the chain until it gets forgetten doesnot get it done. I will concede one thing...Joe takes a disproportionate amount of the heat...several people turned the other way. But all these guys did not just make "one mistake" like a drunk driver. The lived every day for years knowing what happened and having reason to believe it was still going on. That they could sleep at night is hard to fathom.

Putting the 409 on the helmets? May as well put the statue back up.

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Paterno takes such a huge amount because he had direct knowledge of it occurring and did not respond properly. He deserves all the heat and hatred he gets. If those children had been murdered instead of raped, the blood would be on his hands.

Hell, I'll say the blood is still on his hands anyway even though there were no fatalities. :censored: Paterno and :censored: his legacy.

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