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2015 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread


Tigers6884

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Coming up in about a month, the Baseball Hall of Fame will/should have several new members. Since we're about as qualified to vote as the writers are, I thought it be fun to cast our own pretend ballots.

Here would be my ballot, if I could vote:

Randy Johnson

Pedro Martinez

Craig Biggio

Alan Trammell

Tim Raines

Edgar Martinez

There you go. Who would you vote for?

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Again I hope the writers can get off their moral high horse and vote in guys like Bonds and Clemens.

I think my outlook on things is a little different, because I don't look at it as the guys who used and the guys who didn't. I look at it as the guys who we're sure used and the guys we're not sure used.

I think use was widespread enough and incentive great enough to where every player over the last 30 years should be viewed under some cloud of doubt, fair or unfair. If nothing else I would say virtually every player in that time span is guilty of being an enabler because instead of condemning steroid use the union and the star players of the game did everything in their power to either side step the issue or outright fight it.

Curt Schilling, Jeff Kent and Frank Thomas were the star players I heard come out and strongly condemn it while they were still active. Maybe some players I'm forgetting, but the active players who went against the union and spoke publicly against it we're clearly in the minority.

That seems to have changed in recent years, but as we've come to know athletes are habitual liars when it comes to this topic, so who knows what's really going on.

I think a huge reason why athletes have been so unwilling to come forward is because the conversation has been so one sided. Nobody seems to want to play devil's advocate here. If you used it means your the scum of the Earth and that's it. But if its so bad for you health wise, and so wrong on the moral scale, then why did so many guys do it? Nobody wants to admit that hundreds of ballplayers probably benefited from doing this who will never face any consequences for their actions and I'm sure as Ken Caminiti stated in his SI interview, don't regret a damn thing, and even less want to admit its for reasons other then they are inherently bad people.

I think its like that just because as a society we seem to have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that there are a lot more people out there then we're willing to admit who do bad things on a regular basis, reap the rewards, never have to come to terms with the consequences of those actions and don't regret doing them largely because they're never caught.

So to me it makes perfect sense why people would want to just single out a handful of players as scapegoats. I just think its the wrong approach, because if its that widespread and your going after only a handful of the guys were doing it. The crime isn't doing it, its getting caught and I don't agree with that.

None of this is to say that players who are caught shouldn't be commended or punished. If you do wrong and are caught there should be consequences. Plain and simple. But I think there's other ways of going about doing that then trying to whitewash history and I see a lot of that happening now. MLB has upped its drug policy, the Union has lessened their stance, players today are not nearly as defensive about PED questions as guys ten years ago were. Other then perhaps stiffer penalties, I'm sure what a baseball fan could reasonably expect either side to do at this point to fix the issue.

What isn't reasonable is the idea that the MLB or anyone can eliminate the incentive to cheat and/or catch everyone that does. And if that's the only thing that will completely satisfy you, then you probably shouldn't be a baseball fan, because that's never been the case with anything in human society, and it never will be the case.

Regardless of what the Hall says, I refuse to let it dictate my opinion on players anymore. Barry Bonds in my opinion is hands down the greatest position player of the last 75 years. With possible exception of Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens in my opinion is the greatest pitcher of all-time. I hold those opinions because I refuse to be shamed into thinking the era of baseball I grew up watching was somehow any less significant or the players any less important, simply because it had the unique distinction of having a large amount of steroids and PED's involved. The steroid era let blacks and other minorities play, didn't have widespread gambling problems and didn't have 2/3rds of the league strung out on coke. One of the guys on the ballot Tim Raines, probably played more games coked out of his mind then not. I don't think it makes him unique, I think it makes him on par with everyone else for his era and would have zero issue with him going into the Hall.

Again not trying to disparage what baseball was like in the 1940's, or the 1960's, or any other era, this one included. But I am trying to disparage the back in my day crowd who seem to think everything that's come after when they grew up has sucked. And I single them out because I see that group being disproportionately represented among the anti-steroid crusaders and I see them as having an ulterior motive in mind. As much as its about trying to take steroids out of the game, I think its also about trying to downplay any sort of significance this era represents and they see this as the most effective way of doing that.

As far as the Hall of Fame itself goes, its an institution I've lost a lot of respect for in recent years. Just through speaking with one higher ups at the Hall, I have no doubt that the writers prevailing opinion of how to handle the steroid era, very accurately matches that of the Hall and I think that's an opinion that's going to be harder and harder to hold the line on as time goes on. What do you do when media darling David Ortiz is up for election? I can already guarantee you that writers who will tell you they would never vote for anyone that used PED's that will probably vote for Ortiz on either the first or second ballot. And what happens if and when someone gets voted into the Hall and later on admits they used PED's throughout much of their career and without them, may not be in Cooperstown. Do you throw him out? Do you let the floodgates open? Or do you allow him to stay but still not vote anyone who admitted to using PED's in? And what do you do about guys like Jeff Kent who probably didn't use? If your going to hurt the known PED guys, I think in turn you have to elevate those who didn't under the notion that their stats would be better with an even playing field and merely hurt by them not cheating like their counterparts. Why should they suffer because of their counterparts? And as was stated last year, what to do with people like Tony La Russa? Those late 80's early 90's A's team were led by two of the most well known steroid users in the game. Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco. How do those teams help La Russa's case for being in the Hall, but not McGwire or Canseco? You could say that if Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco had not used steroids, Tony La Russa might not be in the Hall of Fame. Does he get punished because of the actions of others?

I say just acknowledge the era happen, but let's not throw anyone under the bus for it, because everyone involved in game has some degree of culpability and same degree of blame on their heads regardless of whether or not they even used, but more importantly to determine what degree of blame is to be associated with anyone I see as an impossible task and one not even worth perusing.

Sadly I think the moral crusade to clean up the game's past is going to continue for the foreseeable future, until like most moral crusades, its done it by its own hypocrisy.

I apologize for the lengthy rant and I do hope this topic is mostly about who should and shouldn't get in, but it was something I felt needed to be said.

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I don't believe in first or second or third or fourth etc ballot hall of famers. A guy's numbers aren't going to get better the longer he stays retired, but I'm sure there will be writers who won't vote for John Smoltz this year, but will next year and that is, in my opinion, F******* STUPID. Either you are or aren't a hall of fame player.

So here's who I'd put in

Craig Biggo

Randy Johnson

Mike Mussina

John Smoltz

Mike Piazza

Alan Trammell (I lobbied hard for Barry Larkin for years and they have very similar numbers so to avoid homerism and hypocriticism I have to say Trammell should be in)

*Bonds

*McGwire
*Clemens
*I'm just whatever anymore on these guys. You could probably throw Piazza in there too. Maybe even Biggio.
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  • 1 month later...

The new Hall of Fame Members will be announced tomorrow. Looking like it could be

- Randy Johnson

- Pedro Martinez

- John Smoltz

- Craig Biggio

- Mike Piazza

- Tim Raines

I don't think Raines is getting in, and Piazza might just miss. Raines is tracking at 67.5% of known votes right now, and Piazza is at 76.6% (source: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/the_2015_hof_ballot_collecting_gizmo). These numbers tend to be a couple of percentage points higher than the final vote totals.

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Lookin' like Trammell's going to get screwed over by the voters again this year

I liked Trammell but is he really a HOF? IMO, he was a very good player but not great.

Tammell is my alltime favorite baseball player, so of course him being good enough or not is blinding my judgement :P

The new Hall of Fame Members will be announced tomorrow. Looking like it could be

- Randy Johnson

- Pedro Martinez

- John Smoltz

- Craig Biggio

- Mike Piazza

- Tim Raines

I don't think Raines is getting in, and Piazza might just miss. Raines is tracking at 67.5% of known votes right now, and Piazza is at 76.6% (source: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/the_2015_hof_ballot_collecting_gizmo). These numbers tend to be a couple of percentage points higher than the final vote totals.

I'm just going by what media reports are saying. It could just be Johnson and Pedro getting in for all we know with Smoltz being a distant third. But this could be the best class we have had in a while.

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I really hope Tim Raines gets in. Delgado too, though I acknowledge that's a massive longshot. He seems to be one of those guys with great careers who are close to the Hall, but not quite there. Still, it should be interesting to see how many votes he gets.

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Often times, there's a friendly discussion about who's hat a player should have on his Hall of Fame plaque.

With Biggio, it's obvious it'll be an Astros cap. His discussion should be "which position"....probably second base, but CF might get some consideration. Don't think he played catcher for long.....

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Pedro Martinez

Randy Johnson

John Smoltz

Edgar Martinez

Tim Raines

Alan Trammell

Carlos Delgado

Fred McGriff

Craig Biggio

Mike Mussina

re. McGriff & Delgado... if both guys put up those numbers in a Dodgers or Cardinals or Yankees or Cubs hat, they'd be locks. Soo yeah...

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Jayson Stark had a good article today about how stupid HOF voting is, and why guys gain and lose votes, why some no brainers won't even be close to unanimous, and how people get hosed. And that's just by the honest voters, not even taking in to account the idiot(s) from St. Louis.

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Why is Bagwell not going in with Biggio? It only makes sense.

'Roids. He's seen as tainted by some.

As for me, I'd certainly vote for... Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, and Craig Biggio.

I'd consider (and then probably would be) voting for... Jack Morris, Mike Mussina, and Tim Raines.

I'd need someone to make the argument to vote for... Don Mattingly, Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell and Alan Trammell.

I'd need someone to bribe me to vote for... Curt Schilling, Carlos Delgado, Nomar Garciaparra, Jeff Kent, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Troy Percival, Lee Smith, and Larry Walker.

No way in hell I'd vote for... Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire, Jason Schmidt, and Sammy Sosa.

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