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2015 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread


Tigers6884

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Why is Bagwell not going in with Biggio? It only makes sense.

'Roids. He's seen as tainted by some.

Yes that's the rumor, but is there any proof, like with McGuire & Bonds??

Nothing documented. But when this is you in your youth...

Jeff_Bagwell_1991_TSC.jpg

...and by the time your career ends, your forearms are the size your neck had been...

jeff-bagwell.jpg

perhaps documented proof isn't really needed.

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With regard to whether or not players suspected of PED use should be voted into the HOF... In a lot of cases, no we don't have documented proof, but if a person knows enough about the game to have a good idea of whether or not a player is HOF worthy, then that person also knows enough about the game to recognize steroid use when they see it. Simple as that.

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I mean we can all say someone used steroids because they got big. Is that always the case? No. A lot of guys bust their asses to make it to the bigs. Just because you bulk up over 15 years doesn't mean you used steroids. Granted I didn't get into baseball until after Bagwell retired, but I'm sure a lot of guys have gotten swole over the course of their careers without using steroids.

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Darin Erstad received one HOF vote, officially making him the greatest punter in the history of Major League Baseball.

Side note: I expected him to be left off of everyone's ballot, so I'm pretty happy he got one vote, even if it's out of spite or whatever. He's easily within my top 5 favorite players of all-time.

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I mean we can all say someone used steroids because they got big. Is that always the case? No. A lot of guys bust their asses to make it to the bigs. Just because you bulk up over 15 years doesn't mean you used steroids. Granted I didn't get into baseball until after Bagwell retired, but I'm sure a lot of guys have gotten swole over the course of their careers without using steroids.

It's more than just how big someone got. When guys went from hitting 15-20 HRs a year to 30-40 out of nowhere, I think it's safe to say something was up. We had exactly one 50 HR season between 1977 and 1991. From 1991 until serious PED testing began, we had over 20. The single season HR record of 61 had stood for 37 years. Then it was exceeded six times in a span of 5 years - four times between 1998 and 2001 alone. You do the math.

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Bob Nightengale of USA Today had an interesting column in advance of today's announcement, and I'm starting to come around on this idea:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/01/05/baseball-hall-of-fame-election-steroid-era-barry-bonds-roger-clemens/21290463/

Baseball writers, some who haven't covered the game in 20+ years, are picking and choosing which players to support in an era that is not black and white.

Part of it is the confusion of the definition on PEDs. They aren't just steroids.

The other part is proof. Do they really have it on all of their outcasts? No.

And do they really know that their "clean" players were all "clean"? No.

So you might as well put them all in. Everyone gets the great big asterisk of the "steroid era" anyway.

I don't like that Nightengale basically admits that he and others looked the other way when this was going on and now those same reporters are acting all high and mighty about the purity of the Hall of Fame.

The truth is the reporters of that era sat on the biggest story of their lives and now they are trying to make up for being bad at their jobs then by being vindictive now.

UNRELATED SIDE NOTE: A consensus "not a first ballot Hall of Famer" would not get the 5 percent necessary to stay on the ballot a second year. Such a flawed voting strategy.

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You know that is true, I am sure half these reporters knew of the Roids going on and said Nada and now act high and mighty. This makes it an even bigger disgrace. I think its time to just say Steroid usage should have zero impact on the HOF. It was an era that baseball had and the only way to move on is ackowledge it happened, call it the steroid era and just move and let the greats of the game be honored. Today players are held accountable and that should be it, fail a test get suspended. Move on like the NFL does. This will erase the black cloud over the game.

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Nothing documented. But when this is you in your youth...

Jeff_Bagwell_1991_TSC.jpg

...and by the time your career ends, your forearms are the size your neck had been...

jeff-bagwell.jpg

perhaps documented proof isn't really needed.

I'm not saying Bagwell did or didn't do steroids, but that's ridiculous. First off, weight-lifting didn't become really big in baseball until around 1990, and players were largely discouraged from getting big" before that. Secondly, EVERYBODY is skinnier when they're 21 than 30. Everybody "fills out" in their twenties, even if they don't get fat. Look at the young picture of Bagwell - you can't see his biceps, but his forearms look pretty big. His midsection looks pretty broad, and his legs were huge even back then. So yes, he did put on muscle after the point when MLB teams started emphasizing adding muscle, after the point when he got access to millions of dollars, nutritionists and world-class training facilities. He may well have done steroids, but those pictures don't prove anything.

Everyone adds muscle after making the majors, and most guys trim out a little (at least before age thirty). Every offseason, our favorite teams run "best shape of my life" articles about a handful of players who have lost 10 pounds and added muscle. The only top guy I can think of who didn't add a bunch of muscle was Frank Thomas. He added a little, but the biggest difference between him at 22 and 28 was that he got fat. You can only tell the steroid impact through pictures if you see a jump mid-career from established guys. Compare pictures of Barry Bonds from 1997, when he was already a future Hall-of-Famer, to 2002 and that's a pretty big difference over a reliable sample period. After the 1998 season which saved baseball, the press hyped how much Sammy Sosa dedicated himself during the offseason, and at spring training gushed about him adding ten pounds of muscle to his forearms alone. So yeah, adding five pounds of muscle to a forearm in three months can't be done naturally, even if Sosa was a chronic masturbator.

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Now next year's controversy: Ken Griffey Jr's hat, forwards or backwards?

You win.

Speaking of hats, Biggio will be the first person ever to go in the HOF as an Astro. Which of the 3 logos that he wore as an astro will he be sporting on the plaque?

Not that I saw him play too often, but in my head he's wearing the navy/gold italicized broken star.

I think that's a tacky logo for HOF cap though. H-Star would look much better.

Question - if a player's look has changed over the years, do they match the cap with whatever era his bust is to represent? For example, if a guy played his whole career with TB and grew some iconic facial hair late in his career, could they make a bust that depicts that facial hair but put him in an older cap that he only wore clean faced?

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Now next year's controversy: Ken Griffey Jr's hat, forwards or backwards?

You win.

Speaking of hats, Biggio will be the first person ever to go in the HOF as an Astro. Which of the 3 logos that he wore as an astro will he be sporting on the plaque?

Not that I saw him play too often, but in my head he's wearing the navy/gold italicized broken star.

I think that's a tacky logo for HOF cap though. H-Star would look much better.

Question - if a player's look has changed over the years, do they match the cap with whatever era his bust is to represent? For example, if a guy played his whole career with TB and grew some iconic facial hair late in his career, could they make a bust that depicts that facial hair but put him in an older cap that he only wore clean faced?

Re: Biggio...he could go "H" Star because that's now the true Astros identity...Blue/Gold broken star for his best years...black/sand broken star for his "most seasons."

Man, do I hate the blue/gold star (the shape of the star and the entire blah identity...I like the earthy-toned identity better). But that one would make sense. I kinda hope for "H-Star" since the broken stars will be forgotten about some day.

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Hopefully he goes into the hall with the open ended star (either one) rather than that stupid clip art star they use now. That was probably my favorite major league identity (both of those stars were awesome), and I hope it's immortalized in some way.

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Now next year's controversy: Ken Griffey Jr's hat, forwards or backwards?

You win.

Speaking of hats, Biggio will be the first person ever to go in the HOF as an Astro. Which of the 3 logos that he wore as an astro will he be sporting on the plaque?

Wow. It's crazy that he's the first, considering the Astros have been around for over 50 years and they've been pretty good for much of it. I agree with Vet that I'd probably think of him in the navy and gold set first, but I think he probably goes in wearing the black cap. He wore the H-star for six seasons, navy and gold for six seasons, and the black set for eight, including the franchises' lone pennant.

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