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New England Patriots White jersey/grey pants

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Can't we just say "gray"?

Please?

This. The Seahawks' "Wolf Grey" is the same grey used by everyone else. The Seahawks just got a neat Nikefied name.
NO! We must insist on always saying WOLF GREY every single time we talk about the Seahawks' grey. If we don't the very fabric of our little community will fall apart! It is essential to our existence!!!!1111!!!LOLZOMG

I posted this yesterday on Twitter...here are the two teams' colors, looking at the Nike equivalents:

SuperBowl49ColorComparison_TC2.png

Notes: I don't have the Nike Color Code for the Dark Gray used in the Seahawks' numeral pattern...also note that the Navy and Gray used by the two teams ARE EXACTLY THE SAME COLOR.

Haha the Patriots and Seahawks wear the exact same grey.

But go ahead, numbskulls, continue to specify what kind of grey the Seahawks use whenever you talk about it.

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I think most people that refer to "wolf grey" are doing it in jest to mock Nike and their ridiculous names for non-unique colors. At least that's my take--correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, enough suggesting one or both teams wear throwbacks. Teams aren't allowed to wear alternates in the playoffs, so that's never going to happen. The only example is the 1994 49ers, when their throwbacks became the de facto primary early in the season.

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I think most people that refer to "wolf grey" are doing it in jest to mock Nike and their ridiculous names for non-unique colors. At least that's my take--correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, enough suggesting one or both teams wear throwbacks. Teams aren't allowed to wear alternates in the playoffs, so that's never going to happen. The only example is the 1994 49ers, when their throwbacks became the de facto primary early in the season.

I'm not so sure about that. I think there's a cross section of members here that actually believe that their favorite team actually has a proprietary color palette completely unique to them because the colors were branded by one of the uniform manufacturers. I guess it makes them feel like there's some deeper meaning or connection with the colors.

College fans are even worse when people get so uppity when you don't use the proper name despite the colors being exactly the same. Case in point if you put 3 swatches of garnet/crimson/cardinal fabric in front of a fsu/alabama/stanford fan how many would be able to determine the difference between the 3 let alone determine which one belonged to their school?

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I'm not so sure about that. I think there's a cross section of members here that actually believe that their favorite team actually has a proprietary color palette completely unique to them because the colors were branded by one of the uniform manufacturers. I guess it makes them feel like there's some deeper meaning or connection with the colors.

College fans are even worse when people get so uppity when you don't use the proper name despite the colors being exactly the same. Case in point if you put 3 swatches of garnet/crimson/cardinal fabric in front of a fsu/alabama/stanford fan how many would be able to determine the difference between the 3 let alone determine which one belonged to their school?

There ya go. Couldn't have said it better myself.

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I think nike's flat fabric would cure the "dirty white" look that so any complained about during the reebok era.

Nah, it still looks like dirty white, even when Nike-fied.

25462787.jpg

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Case in point if you put 3 swatches of garnet/crimson/cardinal fabric in front of a fsu/alabama/stanford fan how many would be able to determine the difference between the 3 let alone determine which one belonged to their school?

This sounds like a challenge . . . or even a good idea for a thread. Colorwerx can put 2 or more color blocks up and see who can tell them apart . . . even with team names listed.

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Case in point if you put 3 swatches of garnet/crimson/cardinal fabric in front of a fsu/alabama/stanford fan how many would be able to determine the difference between the 3 let alone determine which one belonged to their school?

This sounds like a challenge . . . or even a good idea for a thread. Colorwerx can put 2 or more color blocks up and see who can tell them apart . . . even with team names listed.

Garnet is definitely darker than crimson/cardinal, which are admittedly pretty close, and then you have the even-darker burgundy/maroon group. Not to mention teams like Kansas wearing scarlet and calling it crimson, although their "crimson" seems lighter and brighter than Nebraska's "scarlet". I think most people willing to go out of their way to correct a color name based on a team would do pretty well in picking the right version in a challenge, because they're the ones who care enough to know. I think some of the issue is the lack of specificity regarding certain shades of colors in the pantone chart, leaving teams wiggle room when selecting a color.

In my experience, the only time I really hear people being "uppity" and precise about a color is when someone gets it way wrong. Like, don't tell an Alabama fan that you like Bama's burgundy jerseys.. you'll certainly be corrected with "crimson". I think this those type of situation is by far the most common instance of people forcing the correct color name on others

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Garnet is definitely darker than crimson/cardinal, which are admittedly pretty close, and then you have the even-darker burgundy/maroon group. Not to mention teams like Kansas wearing scarlet and calling it crimson, although their "crimson" seems lighter and brighter than Nebraska's "scarlet". I think most people willing to go out of their way to correct a color name based on a team would do pretty well in picking the right version in a challenge, because they're the ones who care enough to know. I think some of the issue is the lack of specificity regarding certain shades of colors in the pantone chart, leaving teams wiggle room when selecting a color.

In my experience, the only time I really hear people being "uppity" and precise about a color is when someone gets it way wrong. Like, don't tell an Alabama fan that you like Bama's burgundy jerseys.. you'll certainly be corrected with "crimson". I think this those type of situation is by far the most common instance of people forcing the correct color name on others

I agree with Leopard88 about making a thread about this...we go through these kinds of things all the time it seems, and there continues to be some confusion.

For example, there's this color:

PMS_186_C_SRGB.png

This color is used by these schools (incomplete sampling):

  • Arkansas State University (Scarlet)
  • California State University, Northridge (Matador Red)
  • University of Houston (Scarlet)
  • Illinois State University (Red)
  • The University of Kansas (Crimson)
  • University of Louisiana at Lafayette (Vermillion)
  • University of Maryland, College Park (Red)
  • University of Nebraska-Lincoln (Scarlet)
  • University of Nebraska at Omaha (Crimson)
  • University of Nevada, Las Vegas (Scarlet)
  • The University of Tulsa (Crimson)

...etc., etc., etc.

Do you get my point? One cannot make assumptions about a color based on a color description. They REALLY DON'T MATTER.

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Garnet is definitely darker than crimson/cardinal, which are admittedly pretty close, and then you have the even-darker burgundy/maroon group. Not to mention teams like Kansas wearing scarlet and calling it crimson, although their "crimson" seems lighter and brighter than Nebraska's "scarlet". I think most people willing to go out of their way to correct a color name based on a team would do pretty well in picking the right version in a challenge, because they're the ones who care enough to know. I think some of the issue is the lack of specificity regarding certain shades of colors in the pantone chart, leaving teams wiggle room when selecting a color.

In my experience, the only time I really hear people being "uppity" and precise about a color is when someone gets it way wrong. Like, don't tell an Alabama fan that you like Bama's burgundy jerseys.. you'll certainly be corrected with "crimson". I think this those type of situation is by far the most common instance of people forcing the correct color name on others

I agree with Leopard88 about making a thread about this...we go through these kinds of things all the time it seems, and there continues to be some confusion.

For example, there's this color:

PMS_186_C_SRGB.png

This color is used by these schools (incomplete sampling):

  • Arkansas State University (Scarlet)
  • California State University, Northridge (Matador Red)
  • University of Houston (Scarlet)
  • Illinois State University (Red)
  • The University of Kansas (Crimson)
  • University of Louisiana at Lafayette (Vermillion)
  • University of Maryland, College Park (Red)
  • University of Nebraska-Lincoln (Scarlet)
  • University of Nebraska at Omaha (Crimson)
  • University of Nevada, Las Vegas (Scarlet)
  • The University of Tulsa (Crimson)
...etc., etc., etc.

Do you get my point? One cannot make assumptions about a color based on a color description. They REALLY DON'T MATTER.

I agree 100%, but I think there's a huge problem with that.. certain color names have a very specific meaning, and should be held to such. Example: scarlet - by definition should be 1/4 of the way between red and orange, suggesting a slightly brighter and more orange version of red, while still being red. Then there's vermilion - halfway between red and orange, true red-orange. This means scarlet should be exactly halfway between true red and vermilion.

Whoever does the pantone color codes needs to be mindful of this and be more accurate with their colors that actually have names.

It also raises the question of what's more important, the colors matching the "official" colors exactly, or the colors just making the uniforms/logos look better?

In most cases, the official colors have been established for a long time, and the pantone color selected to represent the official color is significantly more recent. Should these schools be making more of an effort to be accurate? Or does their visual identity risk losing strength because a certain shade of a color isn't as appealing?

Personally, I'm a fan of accuracy, and I think scarlet should be scarlet, red should be red, crimson should be crimson, and so on. There's no excuse for Kansas and Nebraska to use the same pantone when they have different official colors.

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I agree 100%, but I think there's a huge problem with that.. certain color names have a very specific meaning, and should be held to such. Example: scarlet - by definition should be 1/4 of the way between red and orange, suggesting a slightly brighter and more orange version of red, while still being red. Then there's vermilion - halfway between red and orange, true red-orange. This means scarlet should be exactly halfway between true red and vermilion.

Whoever does the pantone color codes needs to be mindful of this and be more accurate with their colors that actually have names.

It also raises the question of what's more important, the colors matching the "official" colors exactly, or the colors just making the uniforms/logos look better?

In most cases, the official colors have been established for a long time, and the pantone color selected to represent the official color is significantly more recent. Should these schools be making more of an effort to be accurate? Or does their visual identity risk losing strength because a certain shade of a color isn't as appealing?

Personally, I'm a fan of accuracy, and I think scarlet should be scarlet, red should be red, crimson should be crimson, and so on. There's no excuse for Kansas and Nebraska to use the same pantone when they have different official colors.

Pantone doesn't assign color descriptions to their spot colors, they simply provide specifications for reproducing their colors. It's the individual teams' and/or schools' responsibility to pick a color that reflects the intended brand, and also matches well across various mediums.

Here is the majority of information that Pantone provides for a particular color:

PMS_186_C_SRGB.png

The representation of "Crimson" or "Scarlet" or "Vermillion" is not Pantone's responsibility.

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The Patriots' white jersey with silver(gray) pants would look terrible. I think the photoshopped Randy Moss toy looks bad, and I just figured out why. With the home look, the side panels on the jersey disappear - they're just red piping. On the road look, the jersey has contrasting side panels, which is poor design for football, but it doesn't look as jarring because that stripe disappears into the pants. Pairing the white jersey with the silver pants creates a racing stripe going up the side, across two different colors. Although it was always there anyway, it looks particularly bad when the stripe shows up on both. It also highlights the fact that the stripes on the jersey and pants are not the same proportions.

As for gray jerseys, I think they'd look worse than in silver, not better. The Patriots' colors are navy, red and silver. Gray isn't their color, but Nike substitutes it because they're lazy. The light gray pants are visually different than the silver helmets, but the difference isn't nearly as jarring as it would be if gray material was directly underneath the silver helmets.

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Yeah, there is a distinct difference between the actual silver used by Reebok/Adidas and the grey used by Nike

Tom-Brady.jpggty_456706226_67818204-1.jpg

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Yeah, there is a distinct difference between the actual silver used by Reebok/Adidas and the grey used by Nike

Tom-Brady.jpggty_456706226_67818204-1.jpg

Considering nike dri-fit/elite 51 textiles do not come in metallic finishes, their only choice was to adopt whatever gray nike is using to approximate silver these days like all of the former silver uniform teams have done. I doubt there was even an attempt to do any further color matching.

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I agree 100%, but I think there's a huge problem with that.. certain color names have a very specific meaning, and should be held to such. Example: scarlet - by definition should be 1/4 of the way between red and orange, suggesting a slightly brighter and more orange version of red, while still being red. Then there's vermilion - halfway between red and orange, true red-orange. This means scarlet should be exactly halfway between true red and vermilion.

Whoever does the pantone color codes needs to be mindful of this and be more accurate with their colors that actually have names.

It also raises the question of what's more important, the colors matching the "official" colors exactly, or the colors just making the uniforms/logos look better?

In most cases, the official colors have been established for a long time, and the pantone color selected to represent the official color is significantly more recent. Should these schools be making more of an effort to be accurate? Or does their visual identity risk losing strength because a certain shade of a color isn't as appealing?

Personally, I'm a fan of accuracy, and I think scarlet should be scarlet, red should be red, crimson should be crimson, and so on. There's no excuse for Kansas and Nebraska to use the same pantone when they have different official colors.

Pantone doesn't assign color descriptions to their spot colors, they simply provide specifications for reproducing their colors. It's the individual teams' and/or schools' responsibility to pick a color that reflects the intended brand, and also matches well across various mediums.

Here is the majority of information that Pantone provides for a particular color:

PMS_186_C_SRGB.png

The representation of "Crimson" or "Scarlet" or "Vermillion" is not Pantone's responsibility.

i understand that, i'm just saying that they DO have a few colors that actually have real names in addition to their Pantone color code. it would just be nice is they would go the extra mile to ensure that whatever color code they have that equates with the values of True Red would happen to coincide with the Pantone color they call "Red", and so on. they don't currently have just a "Scarlet", so this is one that doesn't apply 100% (although i think they'd be doing the world a great service to assign color specific names as often as possible when they apply), but given a Pantone's RGB code and whatnot, the colors with specific values that match a "Named" color's definition should be more clearly marked and/or easier to find.

as i said earlier, i'm a fan of accuracy and the teams/schools are WAY more at fault than whoever runs "Pantone", but it would be nice since Pantone's primary purpose is to provide precision and consistency, if they could do so with the "named" colors, not just the various shades that have color codes.

edit: i only knew of "flame scarlet" and had never seen "scarlet" when i posted this, but apparently, iy does exist.. either way, the same point still stands, just not that specific example

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i understand that, i'm just saying that they DO have a few colors that actually have real names in addition to their Pantone color code. it would just be nice is they would go the extra mile to ensure that whatever color code they have that equates with the values of True Red would happen to coincide with the Pantone color they call "Red", and so on. they don't currently have just a "Scarlet", so this is one that doesn't apply 100% (although i think they'd be doing the world a great service to assign color specific names as often as possible when they apply), but given a Pantone's RGB code and whatnot, the colors with specific values that match a "Named" color's definition should be more clearly marked and/or easier to find.

as i said earlier, i'm a fan of accuracy and the teams/schools are WAY more at fault than whoever runs "Pantone", but it would be nice since Pantone's primary purpose is to provide precision and consistency, if they could do so with the "named" colors, not just the various shades that have color codes.

Pantone Textile colors have descriptive names assigned to them, but they're just that - names. Pantone solid/spot colors do NOT have names.

Printers, designers, et al need specifics to do their job...when 186 C is designated, everyone will know what that means and how to reproduce it. "Scarlet" can mean many things to many people. Nebulous.

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Yeah, there is a distinct difference between the actual silver used by Reebok/Adidas and the grey used by Nike

Considering nike dri-fit/elite 51 textiles do not come in metallic finishes, their only choice was to adopt whatever gray nike is using to approximate silver these days like all of the former silver uniform teams have done. I doubt there was even an attempt to do any further color matching.

They also could have done like the Cowboys, Raiders, Panthers and the Buccaneers from 2012-13, keeping the old metallic pants material. But you are right that gray isn't really that close to matching the silver helmets. The gray always looks very washed out.

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i understand that, i'm just saying that they DO have a few colors that actually have real names in addition to their Pantone color code. it would just be nice is they would go the extra mile to ensure that whatever color code they have that equates with the values of True Red would happen to coincide with the Pantone color they call "Red", and so on. they don't currently have just a "Scarlet", so this is one that doesn't apply 100% (although i think they'd be doing the world a great service to assign color specific names as often as possible when they apply), but given a Pantone's RGB code and whatnot, the colors with specific values that match a "Named" color's definition should be more clearly marked and/or easier to find.

as i said earlier, i'm a fan of accuracy and the teams/schools are WAY more at fault than whoever runs "Pantone", but it would be nice since Pantone's primary purpose is to provide precision and consistency, if they could do so with the "named" colors, not just the various shades that have color codes.

Pantone Textile colors have descriptive names assigned to them, but they're just that - names. Pantone solid/spot colors do NOT have names.

Printers, designers, et al need specifics to do their job...when 186 C is designated, everyone will know what that means and how to reproduce it. "Scarlet" can mean many things to many people. Nebulous.

once again, we're 100% on the same page. i understand that a "code" must be assigned for each specific color in order to increase consistency. my issue is that "Scarlet" is isn't even a little bit nebulous. it's RGB value is 255/32/0 (actually the EXACT would be 255/31.875/0). based strictly on the definition of scarlet (1/4 of the way between Red and Orange), you can't just assume any general shade of Red will suffice. This is my only concern. if they are going to assign names, they need to be accurate, and they would be doing a lot of favors by doing this process with several common team colors. and the teams/schools should do some research and make sure they're selecting the accurate Pantone color, regarldess of name.

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i understand that, i'm just saying that they DO have a few colors that actually have real names in addition to their Pantone color code. it would just be nice is they would go the extra mile to ensure that whatever color code they have that equates with the values of True Red would happen to coincide with the Pantone color they call "Red", and so on. they don't currently have just a "Scarlet", so this is one that doesn't apply 100% (although i think they'd be doing the world a great service to assign color specific names as often as possible when they apply), but given a Pantone's RGB code and whatnot, the colors with specific values that match a "Named" color's definition should be more clearly marked and/or easier to find.

as i said earlier, i'm a fan of accuracy and the teams/schools are WAY more at fault than whoever runs "Pantone", but it would be nice since Pantone's primary purpose is to provide precision and consistency, if they could do so with the "named" colors, not just the various shades that have color codes.

Pantone Textile colors have descriptive names assigned to them, but they're just that - names. Pantone solid/spot colors do NOT have names.

Printers, designers, et al need specifics to do their job...when 186 C is designated, everyone will know what that means and how to reproduce it. "Scarlet" can mean many things to many people. Nebulous.

once again, we're 100% on the same page. i understand that a "code" must be assigned for each specific color in order to increase consistency. my issue is that "Scarlet" is isn't even a little bit nebulous. it's RGB value is 255/32/0 (actually the EXACT would be 255/31.875/0). based strictly on the definition of scarlet (1/4 of the way between Red and Orange), you can't just assume any general shade of Red will suffice. This is my only concern. if they are going to assign names, they need to be accurate, and they would be doing a lot of favors by doing this process with several common team colors. and the teams/schools should do some research and make sure they're selecting the accurate Pantone color, regarldess of name.

Where are you sourcing your definition of scarlet 255/31.875/0 from? I think what others are saying and what I tend to agree with is that pantone has opted to stay out of the fray of subjective color naming and has created a universal and uniform number based system for color reproduction. In the pantone system color name is completely irrelevant as the names and associations are completely subjective, and can evolve over time whereas the colors themselves never change.

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i understand that, i'm just saying that they DO have a few colors that actually have real names in addition to their Pantone color code. it would just be nice is they would go the extra mile to ensure that whatever color code they have that equates with the values of True Red would happen to coincide with the Pantone color they call "Red", and so on. they don't currently have just a "Scarlet", so this is one that doesn't apply 100% (although i think they'd be doing the world a great service to assign color specific names as often as possible when they apply), but given a Pantone's RGB code and whatnot, the colors with specific values that match a "Named" color's definition should be more clearly marked and/or easier to find.

as i said earlier, i'm a fan of accuracy and the teams/schools are WAY more at fault than whoever runs "Pantone", but it would be nice since Pantone's primary purpose is to provide precision and consistency, if they could do so with the "named" colors, not just the various shades that have color codes.

Pantone Textile colors have descriptive names assigned to them, but they're just that - names. Pantone solid/spot colors do NOT have names.

Printers, designers, et al need specifics to do their job...when 186 C is designated, everyone will know what that means and how to reproduce it. "Scarlet" can mean many things to many people. Nebulous.

once again, we're 100% on the same page. i understand that a "code" must be assigned for each specific color in order to increase consistency. my issue is that "Scarlet" is isn't even a little bit nebulous. it's RGB value is 255/32/0 (actually the EXACT would be 255/31.875/0). based strictly on the definition of scarlet (1/4 of the way between Red and Orange), you can't just assume any general shade of Red will suffice. This is my only concern. if they are going to assign names, they need to be accurate, and they would be doing a lot of favors by doing this process with several common team colors. and the teams/schools should do some research and make sure they're selecting the accurate Pantone color, regarldess of name.

Where are you sourcing your definition of scarlet 255/31.875/0

from? I think what others are saying and what I tend to agree with is that pantone has opted to stay out of the fray of subjective color naming and has created a universal and uniform number based system for color reproduction. In the pantone system color name is completely irrelevant as the names and associations are completely subjective, and can evolve over time whereas the colors themselves never change.

^ This.

WavePunter - we're not on the same page at all. And I agree with guest23 (as usual) - these are subjective names and CANNOT be pigeon-holed into exact specifications.

Your RGB definition of "Scarlet" seems completely out of left-field.

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The RGB code for Red is 255/0/0

The RGB code for Yellow is 255/255/0

The RGB code for Orange is 255/128/0 (255/127.5/0)

Halfway between Red and Orange is Vermilion

The RGB code for Vermilion is 255/64/0 (255/63.75/0)

Scarlet is halfway between Red and Vermilion (by definition, scarlet is one-quarter of the way between Red and Orange)

Therefore, the RGB code for Scarlet, by definition, is 255/32/0 (255/31.875/0)

So, as stated before, "Scarlet" is not a random term applied to a color estimation that's somewhere near Red, but rather an EXACT color that has a specific code, which could easily be applied to all color-matching systems, including Pantone's system (as evidenced by your example of the red Pantone that included the RGB code for that color.

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