FAKING IT: TSN documentary on counterfeiting

[coggs]

I have two pieces of advice for you Coggs. I'm speaking as a mod. First off, we have a post edit feature. If you're replying to multiple people simply edit your posts to include your multiple replies. That's much better then clogging a topic with post after post. Secondly, we encourage healthy, mature debate here. Disagreements are fine, and being passionate about your position is fine. "Busting horns" though? No. Don't go out of your way to be combative.

Now as for the debate at hand...*takes off mod hat*

No, I'm not a fan of other types of theft. I specified intellectual property theft because it's what's relevant to this discussion.

Look, here's how this "property" thing works. If a sports team builds a brand that you as a consumer wish to spend money on then they deserve that money because they both own the brand and worked to make it something you wish to support. If the prices are too high then you're free to not spend your money. By buying a counterfeit you're denying money that the organizations who own and built the brand you want to spend money on. It doesn't matter if the owners of that brand are a mom and pop business or a billion dollar a year industry. If they own the brand you like? They deserve your money.

I am very aware of how this "property" thing works, I just do not care. Like I said, I have season tickets to both the Giants and Rangers. I go on the road at least once a year to see each team. Secondly, as I have said, I have never knowingly bought a counterfeit jersey. One I bought on EBay that turned out to be counterfeit, but so be it. However, I don't buy because I have yet to see a Rangers counterfeit that didn't look terrible. Not because I am worried about the Rangers "deserve" the money. I also disagree about a mom and pop business vs a ten digit revenue league. Sad thing is, the costs have caused most mom and pop businesses to stop selling jerseys of professional teams.

I am simply not spending $250 on a jersey. I might spend $50 on a knock-off if the quality was acceptable in my eyes, but it is not as if that $50 is being taken away from the teams or leagues. If the knock-off is not acceptable, I simply do without it. Leagues have done it to themselves. Or, maybe it is the manufacturers are to blame. The bid a few gazillion dollars for the license and then expect the fans to pay the price they need to make the venture profitable for them. Not how the economy works. People will just do without.

My cousin is a fashion student. A few years ago, my brother brought her one of his steelers authentic jerseys. Asked if she could make this exactly as it is and how much would it cost. Said the tags would be tricky but doable. The materials that make up the jersey, the numbers she said would not be a problem. For one jersey might cost her $5-6 in material. The stitching she could do exact, said she would change one or two settings on the sewing machine and voila, it would work.

If she could do it, others can to. Turns into a profitable business. Knock-offs have always been around, but they were never as prevalent until the last 10 years or so when the prices went nuts. Leagues gave us some b.s. rhetoric about how they jerseys are more technologically advanced and allow the players to move 13% faster. Who cares?

Make something too expensive, people will want alternatives. If someone wants alternatives, someone else will supply the alternatives.

The whole argument about how it's OK to rip off the NFL or NHL because they're just big evil mega-corporations is the same one people use to justify downloading pirated music or movies... basically saying actors, directors, producers, and rock stars are all billionaires anyway, so who cares? And even if that were the only people IP theft was hurting, I'd still think it was a weak argument. But that isn't the only one getting hurt. Next time you go to a movie, stick around for the end credits and try to count the names as they scroll by... there are literally thousands of people employed in the making of even a modest budget movie, and the vast majority of them are just regular people, trying to make a decent living. Same thing with music, and the same thing with Sports product. Venders, packagers, handlers, shippers, truck drivers, on and on and on. And that's just with the physical product. Stop and think about the designers... the people who actually created the logos, fonts, who's creative sweat and inspiration you are now wearing on your body while completely bypassing the financial chain that keeps them employed.

Yeah, I don't care about the NFL's profits either... but don't try to pretend that's why your doing it.

The people who created the logos were already paid for their work. They are hired by the teams to do so. As for the rest, there is a vendor selling the knock-off, a designer making the knock-off. They are just trying to make a living too. And no, to me it is about from whom you are stealing, not what you are stealing. If I was starting a softball team and was going to name it the Cardinals, I wouldn't come on here and take a poster's logo/concept they created for Cardinals without asking first. If I was going to also have some t-shirts and sweatshirts made up to sell as a fundraiser, I would discuss it with the creator. If we couldn't come to an agreement, then so be it. But, I would not just take the persons logo/work. Again, not what you are stealing but who you are stealing from.

t responding to this earlier...

I've never bought a fake nor will I because I believe in purchasing quality product which also means I'd only buy authentic (yes they're not true on field) and completely bypass replicas. Unfortunately there's hundreds of thousands of consumers that are either ignorant or indifferent and opt for the cheap bootleg. Why do you think so many consumers disregard the moral aspect to buying fake? Do you have any ideas that would change the current message that you disapprove of? Just curious here for the sake of discussion.

To the first question. It's a sense of entitlement. Simple as that. So many people now assume that if they want something they deserve something. If that thing is more money then they can or are willing to pay they will seek it out through illegal means. Now if this were medicine or food or something else essential that would be one thing, where the legal side runs into a moral grey zone. It's not though. It's a piece of apparel for a sports team. That makes the morality of it all the clearer to me. This product isn't essential to your survival, or even general state of happiness. So there's no reason to go outside the law on it. Yet so many do because of that sense of entitlement.

As for my ideas? Yeah, it's easy. Teams and leagues need to lower their prices. I still remember buying a Leafs replica for $60 and change at my rink's pro shop back before the EDGE system was a thing. In many ways it's like illegally downloading music. Piracy went down once artists and record labels embraced legal digital distribution that made the music easy to get and affordable. Or like how Netflix has severely damaged the movie piracy business.

Honestly? I think most people are willing to pay for a legally obtained product if prices are reasonable. In that regard? Yes, the teams and leagues are to blame by steadily raising the prices of the products. I can't put all, or even most, of the blame on them though because legally they're allowed to charge whatever they want for their product because it's a luxury item. Sure, the prices are high and turning a lot of people away. The solution, on the consumer's end, is to just not buy a jersey. If enough people do that the leagues and teams will have to adjust their prices. Going into the realm of supporting intellectual property theft? Not what I would call the ideal solution, or even an acceptable one.

That is exactly it. Music industry realized there was nothing they could really do to stop piracy of music, so iTunes developed and the artists didnt have a choice. Same is starting to happen in the television industry. Wife and I bought our house in October, we elected to go without cable. Bought an antenna and a few roku boxes. Pay $8.99/mo for Hulu. Was using my parents sign-on for ESPN (although I hardly every watch ESPN) and now going to get this sling tv for $20/mo. For hockey, I use a pay service that does not black out local games. Don't really care that the money I am paying is not going to the NHL. More and more people are starting to cut the cord, and the television industry is starting to adjust. Eventually, the sports industry is going to have stop with these blackouts or people will start finding alternative methods. I'm sure most of us know a few sites that stream every game. No, the quality is not great, but again people will accept it since it is free and save $200/mo from paying for cable. The site I use the quality IS very good, games are in HD, and I pay for that instead of the free sites because I am willing to pay for that quality. If Game Center Live didn't have all the blackouts, I would get that service.

NFL has announced they are going to stream 1 game live next year for free as an experiment. Surprised, as they usually do not realize anything, but they realize that people know how to get the games for free online and there is really nothing they can do to stop it.

Something has to happen with the apparel industry. Manufacturers need to stop paying the ridiculous money for the licensing, or the league need to stop giving exclusive licenses. Prices go down, and the demand for knock-offs goes down. You will never get rid of it completely. Give someone a choice of a knock-off for $40 or an authentic for $100 and a lot more people would be willing to spend the extra $60 for the authentic than are willing to now spend an extra $200 for the authentic.

I got my first authentic jersey in 1990. I was 14. For Xmas asked for an authentic Giants jersey. My mom ordered it from the NFL catalogue and it cost $85. Get authentics closer to that price and knock-offs will become much harder to find.

[coggs]

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[charger77]

As mentioned before, I am heading to the Mecca of the fakes in March, the Silk Market in Beijing. I don't intend to buy, but I'll be sure to get pics and post them for the CCSLC to enjoy.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

As mentioned before, I am heading to the Mecca of the fakes in March, the Silk Market in Beijing. I don't intend to buy, but I'll be sure to get pics and post them for the CCSLC to enjoy.

That will be a fun experience for you. I went to one of those markets and saw tons of fakes in Beijing. It's a huge bargaining market, and some of the vendors can get pretty upset if you casually browse with no intention to buy.

[charger77]

As mentioned before, I am heading to the Mecca of the fakes in March, the Silk Market in Beijing. I don't intend to buy, but I'll be sure to get pics and post them for the CCSLC to enjoy.

That will be a fun experience for you. I went to one of those markets and saw tons of fakes in Beijing. It's a huge bargaining market, and some of the vendors can get pretty upset if you casually browse with no intention to buy.

I'll try to get a video of the bargaining process and see how it goes.

From what I've read, they are made in Shanghai and sold in Beijing, should be a fun fact finding mission!

WWE replica belts (as sold on wwe.com) are made in China, I wonder if I will find any for sale there.

[monkeypower]

I wouldn't buy a counterfeit because of the quality of the product and the principle of it being a IP theft. But I do see why some people buy them. The leagues need to lower the prices or make a cheaper middle man if they want counterfeits to slow down.

And I also happened to notice some money humblebrag undertones in posts here.

[TalktoChuck]

When you download music illegally and buy counterfeiter jerseys, you're not hurting the teams/record companies. You are hurting the songwriter and designers who aren't going to get their royalties for your illegal activity. And those two professions make very little money to begin with.

It's not about sticking it to the corporations, it's about gipping the people who actually put the work in, out of even more money.

[Tigers6884]

As mentioned before, I am heading to the Mecca of the fakes in March, the Silk Market in Beijing. I don't intend to buy, but I'll be sure to get pics and post them for the CCSLC to enjoy.

Take pics of jerseys you already own so we can compare quality.

[shaydre1019]

As mentioned before, I am heading to the Mecca of the fakes in March, the Silk Market in Beijing. I don't intend to buy, but I'll be sure to get pics and post them for the CCSLC to enjoy.

Honestly most fakes look terrible. But soccer jerseys look nearly identical and some throwback basketball jerseys look good but that's about it. I would never wear a fake football or hockey jersey but soccer I would; good ones are 99% identical.

[guest23]

The whole argument about how it's OK to rip off the NFL or NHL because they're just big evil mega-corporations is the same one people use to justify downloading pirated music or movies... basically saying actors, directors, producers, and rock stars are all billionaires anyway, so who cares? And even if that were the only people IP theft was hurting, I'd still think it was a weak argument. But that isn't the only one getting hurt. Next time you go to a movie, stick around for the end credits and try to count the names as they scroll by... there are literally thousands of people employed in the making of even a modest budget movie, and the vast majority of them are just regular people, trying to make a decent living. Same thing with music, and the same thing with Sports product. Venders, packagers, handlers, shippers, truck drivers, on and on and on. And that's just with the physical product. Stop and think about the designers... the people who actually created the logos, fonts, who's creative sweat and inspiration you are now wearing on your body while completely bypassing the financial chain that keeps them employed.

Yeah, I don't care about the NFL's profits either... but don't try to pretend that's why your doing it.

Your argument is a tad simplistic as the staff that actually makes many industries the successes that they are compensated for their efforts up front based on actual production of goods and services. The very few individuals that are compensated on the back end of the transaction bear the risk of piracy & bootlegging as it will ultimately affect their revenues & profits. Also as I stated in an earlier post the cost of piracy/bootlegging is built into the cost of production and business model much like a produce vendor bakes the cost of spoilage into the retail price of an apple.

Now if those executives shared back end profits slightly more equitably with their staff and labor that ultimately does all of the work you'd have a solid argument. In reality the losses do only hurt the wealthy. There is an economic damage case that can be made but any content or goods producer could reprice their product appropriately or secure & control their IP much better to effectively fight piracy and bootlegging. This is a centuries old practice that's not going away based on introducing morality into the argument.

Edit: Yes I'm being a tad redundant.

True, the caterers and drivers and lighting techs on any given movie have long since been paid and moved on by the time the pirated version hits the streets, but economies, even mini-economies, aren't that simple and don't just exist in one at a time vacuums. You'd have to admit that anything that's cutting into the profits in the industry in which you make your living will eventually, if unchecked, find it's way to you, right?

Also, when you say that the cost of piracy/bootlegging is built into the cost of production... well, as you mentioned, where does that money comes from? We know that "cost" is built into the price tag for you and me, or the paychecks of the workers down the line. Every retail store I ever worked for covered for the loss of shoplifting by raising the prices for the paying customers. In other words, because some low-life got it for free, some honest person paid more.

Which sucks.

Yes i agree with this. It all sucks but what we are talking about is lost revenue opportunity not an actual financial loss as many of the bootleg purchases would never be in the market for licensed product. Some might trade down to a licensed t-shirt or something cheaper but the actual loss is maybe $0.10-$0.20 on the retail dollar but the IP owners would have you believe there's a 1:1 loss relationship which is absolutely a fallacy.

The fact of the matter is that capitalism is never fair even to the law abiding businesses. IP is constantly being devalued in the marketplace by piracy/bootlegging, commodification, or simple technological advancement. Those IP holders that are successful have to realize they are in an ultra competitive market and need to constantly adapt and evolve to stay ahead of their legal and illegal competition as opposed to whining to the public to change their behavior.

Last point. Nike and the others could also easily combat these issues by bringing production in house under tight security standards but obviously the cost/benefit favors producing product overseas in countries that don't respect IP and making half-assed attempts to rein the problem in. Combine that with competitive retail pricing and you kill the counterfeit market immediately.

[AnPheitseog]

I honestly wonder how much an authentic jersey truly costs to make, both in terms of material and labour.

[guest23]

I honestly wonder how much an authentic jersey truly costs to make, both in terms of material and labour.

Top of my head would be 20-30% of retail price is the cost to manufacture.

The best way to figure that out is to find a local sports uniform shop or go online and get an estimate as to what their highest quality on field/court/ice would cost per jersey all in with embroidery/logos/numbers/names. Take the best (high quantity) price quoted and divide that number in half and you'll get an approximate cost to manufacture between materials and labor. I think the breakout of labor to materials cost is something like 30% labor/70% materials with overseas labor being way lower.

There's a ton of margin in apparel especially in jerseys. Replicas have a ton because you can automate more and use cheaper materials. Retail prices also accounts for the inefficiencies of getting the product to market like misallocation, returns, damage (2nds) and unsold product. Then of course the real markup comes from the league/teams, nike, and players all wanting a piece of the action which is what separates buying officially licensed from buying a comparable unlicensed generic product (e.g. hoodie or t-shirt).

Others can feel free to chime in.

[coggs]

I honestly wonder how much an authentic jersey truly costs to make, both in terms of material and labour.

Top of my head would be 20-30% of retail price is the cost to manufacture.

The best way to figure that out is to find a local sports uniform shop or go online and get an estimate as to what their highest quality on field/court/ice would cost per jersey all in with embroidery/logos/numbers/names. Take the best (high quantity) price quoted and divide that number in half and you'll get an approximate cost to manufacture between materials and labor. I think the breakout of labor to materials cost is something like 30% labor/70% materials with overseas labor being way lower.

There's a ton of margin in apparel especially in jerseys. Replicas have a ton because you can automate more and use cheaper materials. Retail prices also accounts for the inefficiencies of getting the product to market like misallocation, returns, damage (2nds) and unsold product. Then of course the real markup comes from the league/teams, nike, and players all wanting a piece of the action which is what separates buying officially licensed from buying a comparable unlicensed generic product (e.g. hoodie or t-shirt).

Others can feel free to chime in.

You forgot to put the decimal point in, 2.0-3.0%

[BBTV]

As mentioned before, I am heading to the Mecca of the fakes in March, the Silk Market in Beijing. I don't intend to buy, but I'll be sure to get pics and post them for the CCSLC to enjoy.

The Mecca of all fakes is actually what the locals refer to as the "copy mall" in Shanghai. EVERYTHING is openly either a "copy" or something produced in the factory after hours and smuggled out the back door (without going through any qa or "finishing", which is how you get a lot of counterfeits that are actually "real", just bad).

[monkeypower]

I honestly wonder how much an authentic jersey truly costs to make, both in terms of material and labour.

Top of my head would be 20-30% of retail price is the cost to manufacture.

The best way to figure that out is to find a local sports uniform shop or go online and get an estimate as to what their highest quality on field/court/ice would cost per jersey all in with embroidery/logos/numbers/names. Take the best (high quantity) price quoted and divide that number in half and you'll get an approximate cost to manufacture between materials and labor. I think the breakout of labor to materials cost is something like 30% labor/70% materials with overseas labor being way lower.

There's a ton of margin in apparel especially in jerseys. Replicas have a ton because you can automate more and use cheaper materials. Retail prices also accounts for the inefficiencies of getting the product to market like misallocation, returns, damage (2nds) and unsold product. Then of course the real markup comes from the league/teams, nike, and players all wanting a piece of the action which is what separates buying officially licensed from buying a comparable unlicensed generic product (e.g. hoodie or t-shirt).

Others can feel free to chime in.

You forgot to put the decimal point in, 2.0-3.0%

I know you're on a posting roll of why counterfeits aren't bad, but don't you think 2 to 3% is just a tad low?

I would think a customized Ryan Getzlaf Ducks premier replica home jersey that is $218.50 from icejerseys would cost more than $5.46 (at 2.5%) to make.

[Brass]

I've always thought that player tees are just as good as jerseys, maybe even better. If you can't afford a jersey, go that route. I just can't buy into the "the NFL has made enough money" mentality.

[El Scorcho]

2-3% could be the material costs, but obviously labor costs are going to make a fair bit higher than that.

[highfieldmatt_52268]

Hey guys, just curious new to these boards and not a pro at spotting a fake. What's your opinion on this.

http://images.craigslist.org/01414_9TFvEdOppNz_600x450.jpg

http://images.craigslist.org/00u0u_5iLOBcufE0l_600x450.jpg

[BigBubba]

Hey guys, just curious new to these boards and not a pro at spotting a fake. What's your opinion on this.

http://images.craigslist.org/01414_9TFvEdOppNz_600x450.jpg

http://images.craigslist.org/00u0u_5iLOBcufE0l_600x450.jpg

Fake. Look how cheap the letters and numbers are, the mismatching shades of yellow, and the off CCM logo.

Also, in what universe is this...

preferable to this...

given that they're the same price?

[clonewars2008]

I have an unpopular opinion on this but this is my take as I'm kinda fine with the counterfitting of jerseys cause it's capitalism. Like the NHL is on the losing side of this cause of their poor economic strategy. In a capitalist market you wanna go for more bang for your buck and the average Joe is going to go for the cheaper deal. But that is just me.