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NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

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Actions speak louder than words. The Rams aren't behaving like a team that really wants to save a struggling market. Yeah, they aren't doing a Frontiere-esque napalming of the market, but they aren't moving heaven and earth to save things either.

I'll take your word for that. Not the kind of thing that we really get out-of-market.

Turning away from St. Louis, Bill Plaschke doesn't want the Raiders back in LA. Can't say as I blame him; that was my experience back in the day. While I'm sure that the obnoxious fanbase is still there in LA, they lack the focal point that eight home games would provide.

True, which is why they've been slowly migrating over and becoming Dodgers fans. If there's one team that would welcome the Raiders back it would be the Dodgers. The Raiders could take back their crazies and keep them out of Chavez Ravine. Still I doubt the Raiders will be the ones making the move. It makes far too much sense for them to continue sharing the Bay Area with the Niners in a joint stadium.

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Yeah, as much as Al Davis wants to hang on to LA, I don't see the Raiders moving south. But we'll see; the Bay Area stadium situation is far from secure.

I wonder what will happen to that Raiders store in Universal City when the Rams and/or Chargers move into town?

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Actions speak louder than words. The Rams aren't behaving like a team that really wants to save a struggling market. Yeah, they aren't doing a Frontiere-esque napalming of the market, but they aren't moving heaven and earth to save things either.

I think you're completely uninformed about the quality of football team the Rams are putting together. Completely. You think this team isn't better than it was last year on the coaching, offensive, and defensive sides of the football? That's about the silliest thing I've ever heard.

I'm not sure that the way a team is being put together is evidence of anything anyways, but if it is, it would be evidence that Kroenke IS trying to save the St. Louis market.

I'm not in denial, I'm just not worried. What's funny to me is that people like Goth know a couple of facts, presume them to be key, and then put together a pretentiously toned argument. We see this song and dance every time a potential copyright infringement comes up on the logos board. It's not that you're not sometimes right, it's that you so clearly enjoy the process of telling people they're wrong. But more importantly, you're not always right.

We all get it. In you're evaluation of the facts we know you believe the likely outcome has the Rams moving.

In my evaluation of the facts we know, I believe the outcome has the Rams staying.

You can suggest its denial if you want, but that's a pretty lame cop out to simply dismiss another take on the situation.

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If you don't us to "simply dismiss" your opinions, you should base them on something. :P

I'm not sure that the way a team is being put together is evidence of anything anyways, but if it is, it would be evidence that Kroenke IS trying to save the St. Louis market.

See, this is what I mean.

That doesn't follow at all. Improving the team is evidence of nothing more than Kroenke would like that team to win more games. Which happens to be a good business strategy regardless of whether your end goal is making St. Louis to build you a new billion-dollar playground or taking the LA market by storm.

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If you don't us to "simply dismiss" your opinions, you should base them on something. :P

I'm not sure that the way a team is being put together is evidence of anything anyways, but if it is, it would be evidence that Kroenke IS trying to save the St. Louis market.

See, this is what I mean.

That's patent nonsense. Improving the team is evidence of nothing more than Kroenke would like that team to win more games. Which happens to be a good business strategy regardless of whether your end goal is having St. Louis to build you a new billion-dollar playground or taking the LA market by storm.

Why did you totally ignore the first part of that statement? I don't believe it's evidence of anything because I think a good team is helpful no matter what. And maybe I worded the second part poorly. But basically, there's no way you can construe what he's doing with the team he's fielding on the field as being part of some grander plan to move the team. He's trying to put a winning team together because (1) he likes to win, and (2) a winning team is good for business, wherever business is.

I don't consider it evidence he's trying to stay in St. Louis. Similarly, it's not evidence he's trying to move the team either.

My opinions are based on plenty of facts. You'll easily dismiss them, I'm sure--you've repeatedly done so, but I'll restate them later tonight or tomorrow when I have a real chance. I already need to be doing other things.

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Please don't make this personal. Can we please stick to the arguments?

You posted that if his improving the team meant anything, it supported your argument. But you didn't actually believe that it did? Um, okay.

Setting aside the strawmen, the arguments on your side seem to boil down to "he's a local owner." Which is nice and all, often a good thing, and could in fact mean that he's disposed to keeping the team in St. Louis. But it doesn't carry a whole lot of weight in and of itself.

On the one hand, we have a broke city that won't be able to make good on its obligation to supply the Rams with a top-tier facility. We also have two escape clauses in the lease, one which could be triggered in as little as twelve months from right now, and we have the lure of a free stadium in the second largest market in the country. A stadium which will be approved for construction in... as little as twelve months from right now.

On the other hand, we have "he's a local owner" who will spend his own money on a stadium.

Please, I don't wish to seem dismissive. And, in fact, I really value the contributions of people closer to the situation. But what else do you really have to support your assertion that the Rams will stay? Do you really think that St. Louis will be able to come up with the half-billion dollars minimum that the contract requires?

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You're over simplifying the argument in order to dismiss it. I'll be more clear later.

And yes, I did post something that I didn't believe because I miss worded it. I apologize if that's not possible to believe, these things happen.

And I'm not making it personal any more than one makes discrediting a witness personal. You've shown a pattern of behavior not just in this threads but other situations that I think is relevant to how your analysis should be perceived. (I surely have a pattern of behavior to my name too that affects how my analysis should be perceived.)

Nobody has real evidence of anything, but I do have some facts that suggest a likely hood of the Rams staying. My believe of what will happen doesn't involve the city having a half-billion dollars in a year, primarily because I don't think that's what will be necessary for the Rams to stay.

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I accept that you didn't intend your post to read that way. We've all done that, I've had my share.

You say I'm oversimplifying, I say that you're trying to shift the focus on me to avoid anyone noticing a spectacularly weak argument on the other side.

The facts of the lease are what they are. I don't think those are in dispute, but if so then we should take it up with the Post-Dispatch, which reported the potential conversion to a year-to-year lease as early as next season.

But I would love to hear your more complete thoughts.

And again, this isn't about what I want. I don't particularly want any team to move, and if a team is to move I think it should be the Jags, who are in a truly failed market, not a "mostly failed" one. </princess_bride> :P

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If I don't return with a full argument, then you're point about shifting the focus is valid. When I do however, it won't be. I think this requires I really organize my thoughts and my sources, and I intend to. But I don't have the time for that this moment. Perhaps much later tonight.

Every now and then you (big you--you that also includes me) research something even more in-depth figuring things will support your argument and you find out you're wrong. I'm open to that possibility, but I believe I'll find a lot of what I believe is out there and be able to organize it into a good counter argument.

And at the end of it, what we'll have is two real possibilities based on the facts that are out there, neither of us closer to right because we don't know the mindset of the most important people involved.

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I agree that we'll never know the mindset of other people. That's why I prefer to talk about things that are more verifiable, like the terms of leases, financing details, and the political situations in the various municipalities. We can speculate about motives, but those aren't exactly evidence either way.

Meanwhile, because this isn't just about the Rams, the owners of the Vikings and Chargers have both strongly denied that they're planning to relocate.

Makes sense that, as a public relations tactic, Zygi Wilf doesn't want to appear to blackmail Minnesotans, especially since he's starting to get some motion on his new suburban stadium. Don't want to rock the boat. But the Chargers' statement surprises me a little bit. I would have expected them to try to leverage the situation, but maybe they feel they have a pretty good relationship with the politicians in San Diego and don't want to disrupt that.

But does anybody really see a California city spending public dollars on a sports facility right now? How do the Chargers possibly get out of Jack Murphy Stadium except by moving north?

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Who knows, but if the Chargers think there's zero chance of getting a new stadium in SD, then there's no need to try and get mean and leverage it. They stay polite and then simply move on when the opportunity arrises. Certainly could be their mindset. Granted, how polite is it if you're lying and saying you're not looking to move? But for now it at least SEEMS polite. And on the other side, they might be telling the truth.

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You could be right - it could be a sign that they have no more faith in San Diego at all. Don't know.

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On Around the Horn today, Bill Plaschke was pretty adamant, and excited, that the Chargers ARE heading to LA. Obviously not set in stone evidence, but it's no less reliable that the Post Dispatch in StL. I think the Chargers management is blowing smoke so people will still come out to see them while they're in town.

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I think you're completely uninformed about the quality of football team the Rams are putting together. Completely. You think this team isn't better than it was last year on the coaching, offensive, and defensive sides of the football? That's about the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Coaching depends on how much Spagnuolo backs off on his control freak tendencies and lets McDaniels do his thing on the offense.

From the perspective of talent on offense and defense, this team has mostly treaded water. Yeah, they added a couple of players who might be good down the road, but in terms of immediate impact...*cricket noises*.

This is at best a 7 or 8 win team that they have put together. The same as last year. And if the Rams played in any other division this would be a 5 or 6 win team max. Where are the honest to God TALENT upgrades? Quinn is not an upgrade, and likely not even going to be playing much to start the year. Mike Sims-Walker doesn't exactly impress me on the talent front. The only improvement the plethora of receivers drafted brings is that they aren't hurt and likely don't have learning disabilities *glances at Gilyard* Either Craig Dahl or James Butler is going to still be starting at Safety this season, and if that isn't cause for concern, I don't know what to say. Yes the Rams bolstered the offensive line, but that goes under the category of "duh" level improvements when you consider the amount of money they are blowing on Bradford.

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I think you're completely uninformed about the quality of football team the Rams are putting together. Completely. You think this team isn't better than it was last year on the coaching, offensive, and defensive sides of the football? That's about the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Coaching depends on how much Spagnuolo backs off on his control freak tendencies and lets McDaniels do his thing on the offense.

From the perspective of talent on offense and defense, this team has mostly treaded water. Yeah, they added a couple of players who might be good down the road, but in terms of immediate impact...*cricket noises*.

This is at best a 7 or 8 win team that they have put together. The same as last year. And if the Rams played in any other division this would be a 5 or 6 win team max. Where are the honest to God TALENT upgrades? Quinn is not an upgrade, and likely not even going to be playing much to start the year. Mike Sims-Walker doesn't exactly impress me on the talent front. The only improvement the plethora of receivers drafted brings is that they aren't hurt and likely don't have learning disabilities *glances at Gilyard* Either Craig Dahl or James Butler is going to still be starting at Safety this season, and if that isn't cause for concern, I don't know what to say. Yes the Rams bolstered the offensive line, but that goes under the category of "duh" level improvements when you consider the amount of money they are blowing on Bradford.

I was skeptical about picking Quinn, but evidently he's been pretty good in camp for a defense that ranked 12th in the league last year despite it's youth and is only getting better. All Bradford needs is healthy targets that can catch a ball. They are gonna be better than last year. Maybe 9-10 wins hopefully. Probably an early playoff exit but still a good season. They actually have an overall decent team with some special pieces that are still young and only getting better with experience.

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On Around the Horn today, Bill Plaschke was pretty adamant, and excited, that the Chargers ARE heading to LA. Obviously not set in stone evidence, but it's no less reliable that the Post Dispatch in StL. I think the Chargers management is blowing smoke so people will still come out to see them while they're in town.

I'd say that the Chargers are easily the favorite to move to LA first. I don't see another new stadium for them anywhere.

He's also excited because the Chargers have a pretty good team, and as I said before they're not the Raiders.

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On Around the Horn today, Bill Plaschke was pretty adamant, and excited, that the Chargers ARE heading to LA. Obviously not set in stone evidence, but it's no less reliable that the Post Dispatch in StL. I think the Chargers management is blowing smoke so people will still come out to see them while they're in town.

I'd say that the Chargers are easily the favorite to move to LA first. I don't see another new stadium for them anywhere.

He's also excited because the Chargers have a pretty good team, and as I said before they're not the Raiders.

With their stadium situation, it wouldn't make sense not to move up and stake claim in the heart of the second largest market which you already monopolize but may be getting some competition in.

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For a downtown LA area stadium, why would it be Farmers field? So random for that area.

I'm guessing it's Farmers Insurance.

Also, they do have a huge farmers market in LA that's really cool, so that association gets made in my mind.

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I think you're completely uninformed about the quality of football team the Rams are putting together. Completely. You think this team isn't better than it was last year on the coaching, offensive, and defensive sides of the football? That's about the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Coaching depends on how much Spagnuolo backs off on his control freak tendencies and lets McDaniels do his thing on the offense.

From the perspective of talent on offense and defense, this team has mostly treaded water. Yeah, they added a couple of players who might be good down the road, but in terms of immediate impact...*cricket noises*.

This is at best a 7 or 8 win team that they have put together. The same as last year. And if the Rams played in any other division this would be a 5 or 6 win team max. Where are the honest to God TALENT upgrades? Quinn is not an upgrade, and likely not even going to be playing much to start the year. Mike Sims-Walker doesn't exactly impress me on the talent front. The only improvement the plethora of receivers drafted brings is that they aren't hurt and likely don't have learning disabilities *glances at Gilyard* Either Craig Dahl or James Butler is going to still be starting at Safety this season, and if that isn't cause for concern, I don't know what to say. Yes the Rams bolstered the offensive line, but that goes under the category of "duh" level improvements when you consider the amount of money they are blowing on Bradford.

I was skeptical about picking Quinn, but evidently he's been pretty good in camp for a defense that ranked 12th in the league last year despite it's youth and is only getting better. All Bradford needs is healthy targets that can catch a ball. They are gonna be better than last year. Maybe 9-10 wins hopefully. Probably an early playoff exit but still a good season. They actually have an overall decent team with some special pieces that are still young and only getting better with experience.

I believe you meant 19th. They were 12th in points allowed. And of course, once you get past the line of scrimmage, the Rams' defense gets a lot worse. Kind of like the HMS Hood if you think about it.

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The Chargers also have the most plausible claim to expanding their existing market, not abandoning it. PR cover in there.

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