NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[STL FANATIC]

I think there's some wiggle room with the words viable and serious. I think 100% this is a serious proposal from St. Louis. I don't think this is a chuck and pray. They tried. They may not have done enough, though. And I think it is plenty viable, it's just going to test the NFL's greed.

It may not satisfy the NFL, but I don't think it's clearly unviable. And, of course, everything is relative with there being 5 factors in play (3 home markets, 2 LA plans). There's no automatic threshold for any of these as the owners will have to make a choice between them all.

As much as I hate this whole plan for St. Louis, I do like that they drew the line somewhere. "We can give you this much. It's uncomfortable for us. You need to do something uncomfortable for you too."

And of course the NFL can walk away from it. But that's more than ok with me.

[Gothamite]

I would agree with you, right up until they tried to count money the NFL specifically said they can't count.

That shows they're not actually serious. They appear to be hoping that nobody will notice, and they'll win the PR battle about the big meanie league and the poor little city so badly treated and abused, that did everything asked and more.

It won't work on anyone who's actually paying attention, of course, but that means they have a pretty good shot of convincing the American public.

[STL FANATIC]

I don't know. There was a deadline both with them and with the Board of Alderman. I'm fairly certain they were confident in the information they received that $300 million was doable. Then they day before the final aldermanic vote (too late for amendments at that point without starting over), the Commissioner says "no can do."

At that point there was little choice but to go forward with what was there and see what happens.

And you don't actually believe they should lose the PR battle, do you? Even if your believe on their perspective is accurate, the NFL still IS the big meanie bullying around the public here. That PR outcome is 100% deserved, whatever route is taken to get there.

With that said, I think your wrong. The American public's response will be that St. Louis is a small town and not a good enough football market and this is no big deal. The American public will spend a quarter of a second being upset at the NFL's greed and then they'll go directly back to being spoon fed whatever the NFL has put on their plate.

I don't expect St. Louis to get much sympathy at all.

[The_Admiral]

San Diego seems to have all the fans' sympathy and none of the league's, because the general public (and the 1980s band General Public) just doesn't know what a good guy Dean Spanos is. Maybe we'd think he's a good guy if he weren't always sending out that coprophage Fabiani.

Seems like for each person who thinks St. Louis is a small town and not a good enough football market and this is no big deal (with the added wrinkle that they got their team from L.A. under dubious circumstances in the first place), there's someone who thinks St. Louis is full of plucky Midwesterners and must be a good sports town because of the Cardinals (baseball, not the other football team that didn't want to be there), and the league has chugged along fine without crappy old Los Angeles anyway. I'm guessing it's mostly a coasts/flyover divide on this one.

No one cares about the Raiders.

[HedleyLamarr]

I don't expect St. Louis to get much sympathy at all.

When your tickets scanned is below 18,000 and this is your crowd at kickoff, you don't deserve any sympathy:

The city's politicians seem to be the only ones that want to keep the Rams in St. Louis. The owner doesn't want to be there, and the fans don't look interested in showing some support to keep them there.

[The_Admiral]

Having the Rams there creates jobs. You know, in the wrestling sense.

[Gothamite]

I don't expect St. Louis to get much sympathy at all.

When your tickets scanned is below 18,000 and this is your crowd at kickoff, you don't deserve any sympathy:

Yeah, that.

I don't know. There was a deadline both with them and with the Board of Alderman. I'm fairly certain they were confident in the information they received that $300 million was doable. Then they day before the final aldermanic vote (too late for amendments at that point without starting over), the Commissioner says "no can do."

At that point there was little choice but to go forward with what was there and see what happens.

That's just factually untrue. The NFL actually held a conference call with Peacock and Co. on the 15th, three days before the vote, at which point it was made clear that the extra $100M was not on the table.

Yes, three days is a tight timeline. But the league wasn't given a lot of time to see the plan, either, considering how late and how often it was being revised. And it's worth pointing out that Peacock was never actually authorized to add that $100M; so it doesn't matter when it was added to the bill.

You can't complain that the NFL didn't give them enough time to not do something that no reasonable person would have thought they could do.

And you don't actually believe they should lose the PR battle, do you? Even if your believe on their perspective is accurate, the NFL still IS the big meanie bullying around the public here. That PR outcome is 100% deserved, whatever route is taken to get there.

Nonsense. St. Louis made its bed. They were the ones who signed an unreasonable lease in a desperate attempt to lure a team from another city. They were the ones who then failed to live up to that lease, causing this whole mess in the first place. They were the ones who ignored the warnings going at least as far back as 2006(!).

And once this became public and they could no longer ignore the problem, they are the ones who have, unfortunately, responded with a combination of petulance, persecution complex and entitlement. Even people from the area whom I know and otherwise respect have fallen into this Bizarro World conspiracy balderdash.

I hate to keep repeating this, but I don't want anyone to see my username and think I'm just a coast guy with no loyalties to the rest of the country. I am a loyal son of Brooklyn and Milwaukee, and that means I hate relocation as a rule. I especially hate relocation from the Midwest to an empty sunshiny place. But the response I've seen to this whole mess has made it really hard to keep any sense of sympathy for Missouri in this one.

I really don't want to say they deserve to lose their team. But they sure as hell deserve to lose the PR battle.

[STL FANATIC]

I'm not actually asking for sympathy.

I just think it's absurd that people consider the NFL's business practices as anything but morally reprehensible. Really says something about the standards they've shoved down our throats and that so many have just accepted as reasonable.

St. Louis doesn't have to be in the right for the NFL to be in the wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And indeed that's the case. There is no defending the actions of the NFL. Or at least their shouldn't be.

[Gothamite]

I just think it's absurd that people consider the NFL's business practices as anything but morally reprehensible.

Nobody in Missouri seemed to mind when those exact same business practices brought you a team. Little late to grow a moral compass.

[Mac the Knife]

I'm not actually asking for sympathy.

I just think it's absurd that people consider the NFL's business practices as anything but morally reprehensible. Really says something about the standards they've shoved down our throats and that so many have just accepted as reasonable.

St. Louis doesn't have to be in the right for the NFL to be in the wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And indeed that's the case. There is no defending the actions of the NFL. Or at least their shouldn't be.

"Morally reprehensible?" Nah. It's simply what all businesses do - get the maximum they possibly can, whenever, wherever they can. It's just in this case, doing so jerks around sports fans.

What's morally reprehensible is that in at least two of these cases, the municipalities involved are at least to an extent behaving like battered wives - "They aren't really good for us, but we love them so we'll fight for them to stay." Bull :censored: to that.

[pcgd]

Claiming sales taxes belong to the NFL is a new low for any corporation. St. Louis is in no way a blameless victim but that still kills me.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2015/10/26/10011/rams-stadium-bill-still-uses-hated-game-day-taxes-for-city-share-nfl-says-get-your-own-money-thats-ours/

[2001mark]

Are we there yet?

[STL FANATIC]

I just think it's absurd that people consider the NFL's business practices as anything but morally reprehensible.

Nobody in Missouri seemed to mind when those exact same business practices brought you a team. Little late to grow a moral compass.

St. Louis doesn't have to be in the right for the NFL to be in the wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Gothamite]

Those two thoughts don't actually have anything to do with one another.

I was just saying that unless you were decrying the NFL's business practices in, say, 1999, then it's a little late to claim now that they're oh-so morally reprehensible.

Yes, it sucks to die by the sword. But when you have lived by it...

[STL FANATIC]

They didn't in their original context have anything to do with each other, but it remains the accurate response.

St. Louis lost the NFL in 1987 due to the NFL's greed. St. Louis worked within that greedy system to get a team back in 1995. St. Louis (or someone else) is going to lose a team in 2016 due to the NFL's greed.

It's all an indictment of the greedy system. Getting suckered into playing within it doesn't mean you can't step away from it and call it what it is.

Honestly Goth, I think you've been more fair than I've given you credit for throughout. But I can't fathom defending the NFL here. Again, you don't have to have sympathy for St. Louis or any other city to call the NFL for what it is. And that's probably the greediest, public money sucking corporation in America. (Oh, and by the way their product kills their employees while they're at it. But I digress.)

[Gothamite]

The NFL has many faults. And I for one don't expect it to continue in its present form for more than another decade or so.

But to suddenly decide now that the system isn't right? That's not about the system at all, only that your city is no longer benefitting from the system.

Honestly, that's a Bernie kind of response. And while I have deep sympathy for your situation, that's a step way too far. You've been an admirable advocate for your city, challenging and fair, but this isn't exactly your strongest argument.

[STL FANATIC]

You're misunderstanding my perspective, I suppose. Even when I wanted to keep the team, I was pretty consistent that this is ridiculous for all 3 cities currently involved. This has nothing to do with St. Louis.

As is natural, I actually care about this issue because my city is brought into it, but this isn't "The NFL is bad because the NFL is screwing St. Louis."

This is bad because it's utterly disgraceful. But hey don't believe me. Believe all the national reports in the past year about it, the best of which was probably from John Oliver.

[Gothamite]

We'll have to agree to disagree, my friend. This seems the natural expression of your recent "burn the whole thing to the ground" philosophy started when it was clear your city was being stung by the business practices which it once exploited.

My ex-wife has many faults. But I really wouldn't have been the most objective source to discuss them in the months after she left me.

However, as I said, I understand the impulse.

[STL FANATIC]

Again, I do understand you considering me not the most objective of sources. Makes sense.

But there are plenty of objective people saying the same thing I am, no?

[Gothamite]

I'm not sure I'd count Drew Magary or Bernie Miklasz as "objective".

You're right, although a lot of the criticism of the process (and there has been a lot of the criticism of the process) centers around Goodell bending over backwards to keep St. Louis in it.

A good Commissioner would have ripped the band-aid off immediately. By trying to stop Kroenke once Stan made his intentions known, Goodell has allowed the city and state to waste time and resources. Instead, the NFL has decided to prolong this process, presumably in part to allow St Louis to wow the owners as well as one last chance to extort Oakland and San Diego.

And ironically, in so doing Goodell has begin to screw over a fourth fanbase, to the point where fans in Los Angeles have nearly as legitimate a grievance against the NFL as fans in any of the three cities.

It's an absolute hash, and one that didn't have to be anywhere near as bad. A quick resolution last year would have been better for everyone.