NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[GriffinM6]

As someone whose been to plenty of games at the Ed Jones Dome, I don't quite understand the scorn for it. Yes, it's dark in the bowl. But it has two levels of suites and a dedicated club level, both things the Metrodome and Candlestick do not. It's easy to move around from level to level and the sightlines aren't too bad. It has good bones, as opposed to arenas like Orlando's old one which were obsolete the day they opened. I don't see how more renovations and improved lighting couldn't give it another 15-20 years of NFL service.

What was idiotic was the person for the City of St. Louis who negotiated the top quarter of NFL stadia clause. Even Memphis, as inept as this city is, created a strict lease with the NBA's Grizzlies which will at least leave the city with a paid off arena if they bolt town (which they cannot for several more years at a minimum, enforcable by injunction). Has anyone ever see the dome's lease and how top quarter of NFL stadia is calculated.

In reality, I think Kroenke will accept more dome renovations and agree to play there another decade. Then STL will have to think about new stadium. It boggles my mind, though, that a dome that opened in 1995 can be considered obsolete in 2011 (Georgia Dome also in this boat apparently, too).

Also, it's quite annoying to have 3 out of my 4 pro teams be on the relocation docket (Blues, Grizz, Rams...yeah the Blues probably won't move but the Thrashers weren't moving at this time last year either).

The Falcons are set to move into an open air stadium right down the road from the dome in 2017 if they can get the thing approved. The Dome is said to still be in use if the new stadium is opened. The dome is supposedly gonna be used for basketball tournaments, college bowl games and even conventions and concerts.

[Gothamite]

I'm still skeptical of the NFL putting a team right back in St. Louis after moving the Rams back to Los Angeles.

I doubt that the NFL would, if they didn't have a St. Louis-area tycoon already owning a team in a failing market elsewhere.

[Gothamite]

What was idiotic was the person for the City of St. Louis who negotiated the top quarter of NFL stadia clause. Even Memphis, as inept as this city is, created a strict lease with the NBA's Grizzlies which will at least leave the city with a paid off arena if they bolt town (which they cannot for several more years at a minimum, enforcable by injunction). Has anyone ever see the dome's lease and how top quarter of NFL stadia is calculated.

Pretty sure it's at least partly, if not mostly, in terms of revenues. Revenue streams have come a long way in the last two decades.

In reality, I think Kroenke will accept more dome renovations and agree to play there another decade. Then STL will have to think about new stadium.

I'm not sure that the NFL would let Kroenke just forgive that provision in the lease. Holding St. Louis'; collective feet to the fire gives other teams ammunition as their stadium deals start to come due, while letting the city off the hook sets a very bad precedent from their perspective. The NFL has to approve any deal between the team and city, and it doesn't seem to be in their best interest to just throw away all the team's leverage. St. Louis will have to figure out how to pay for many hundreds of millions of dollars of renovations out of a budget already straining at the seams and only getting worse thanks to Missouri voters.

That having been said, I could see Khan negotiating another lease for the Jags to play in the dome, one more forgiving to city coffers.

[UnclearInitial]

Weren't the Rams sold a to Kroenke after an 11th hour bid when it looked like Khan had wrapped it up? Tinfoil hat theory, but couldn't they have struck a deal that would have given the Rams to Kroenke, while Khan would have avoided a possible season-threatening lockout and bought the Jaguars or another financially struggling franchise after that, and when the LA stadium was built, Khan would get the Rams and Kroenke would buy Khan's team, have to break the lease and then move them to LA? Probably stretching, but the Rams sale was always fishy to me. Khan wasn't considered safe enough a year ago, but he is now? Doesn't make sense.

[rams80]

Why would the NFL move a third team to a market that is looking really bad right this second? No way. The Jags sell tickets and they are in the black. No reason to move. This isn't 2008 any more. Teams copy the Jags ticket selling model for a reason.

Uh... if they're the model, the NFL is in trouble. Avoiding blackouts isn't exactly the standard NFL teams want to strive for.

Here's a scenario - one that's actually happened in NFL history - that could play out. Khan buys the Jags, and swaps that franchise for the Rams. The Rams stay in St. Louis under Khan, while the Jags move to Los Angeles. The Rams fan base undergoes minimal grief, Los Angeles gets an AFC market, and the Jacksonville chapter comes to an end.

Oh, and the precedent? It involved the Rams, when Carroll Rosenbloom got Robert Irsay to buy the Rams, then trade them to Rosenbloom for the then-Baltimore Colts.

I can see the ending. It involves Khan getting murdered by his trophy wife.

[bosrs1]

As someone whose been to plenty of games at the Ed Jones Dome, I don't quite understand the scorn for it. Yes, it's dark in the bowl. But it has two levels of suites and a dedicated club level, both things the Metrodome and Candlestick do not. It's easy to move around from level to level and the sightlines aren't too bad. It has good bones, as opposed to arenas like Orlando's old one which were obsolete the day they opened. I don't see how more renovations and improved lighting couldn't give it another 15-20 years of NFL service.

What was idiotic was the person for the City of St. Louis who negotiated the top quarter of NFL stadia clause. Even Memphis, as inept as this city is, created a strict lease with the NBA's Grizzlies which will at least leave the city with a paid off arena if they bolt town (which they cannot for several more years at a minimum, enforcable by injunction). Has anyone ever see the dome's lease and how top quarter of NFL stadia is calculated.

In reality, I think Kroenke will accept more dome renovations and agree to play there another decade. Then STL will have to think about new stadium. It boggles my mind, though, that a dome that opened in 1995 can be considered obsolete in 2011 (Georgia Dome also in this boat apparently, too).

Also, it's quite annoying to have 3 out of my 4 pro teams be on the relocation docket (Blues, Grizz, Rams...yeah the Blues probably won't move but the Thrashers weren't moving at this time last year either).

The Falcons are set to move into an open air stadium right down the road from the dome in 2017 if they can get the thing approved. The Dome is said to still be in use if the new stadium is opened. The dome is supposedly gonna be used for basketball tournaments, college bowl games and even conventions and concerts.

Are they still trying to negotiate that? I don't see why either Edward Jones or the Georgia Dome are inadequate. And even if they are, wouldn't it be easier to simply renovate both venues the same way as the much older and more poorly laid out Superdome.

[The_Admiral]

Watching the Rams at home gives me existential crises. Even when they were good.

[rams80]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is it that makes the Edward Jones Dome so terrible? It's not even 20 years old.

It's an on spec stadium built on the relative cheap right before the wave of luxury boxes. And right before most of the league either built new stadiums or had existing stadiums get massive SLEP renovations that effectively amount to new construction.

[rams80]

Weren't the Rams sold a to Kroenke after an 11th hour bid when it looked like Khan had wrapped it up? Tinfoil hat theory, but couldn't they have struck a deal that would have given the Rams to Kroenke, while Khan would have avoided a possible season-threatening lockout and bought the Jaguars or another financially struggling franchise after that, and when the LA stadium was built, Khan would get the Rams and Kroenke would buy Khan's team, have to break the lease and then move them to LA? Probably stretching, but the Rams sale was always fishy to me. Khan was considered safe enough a year ago, but he is now? Doesn't make sense.

I assume you meant "wasn't" but Khan was perfectly acceptable last year. Stan Kroenke had the right to match any price for the 60% the Rosenblooms controlled and become the owner that way and he just moved in once somebody set the price.

[DaytonBlue]

Another thing odd about the Rams sale is the NFL let Kroenke get around the cross-ownership rule by simply transferring the Avs/Nuggets to a family member (I think his son)...now that the Jaguars are sold that seems a little more suspicious.

I guess I'll have a great weekend in 2016 or so in Nashville watching Mizzou play Vanderbilt Saturday and then the St. Louis Stallions against the Titans on Sunday.

[Rockstar Matt]

It's basically a giant, average arena. Nothing too spectacular for football. It's great for the Final Four and NCAA tourney games and concerts and such.

Hypothetically, how early could the Jags possibly leave? Are we looking at maybe next year, or will they need to wait longer?

With the Jags current lease, they need to prove that they've lost money in three consecutive years otherwise they can't break the lease until 2028.

[Saint Zephyr III]

This is a random point to make but is Khan actually the first minority NFL owner?

[rams80]

It's basically a giant, average arena. Nothing too spectacular for football. It's great for the Final Four and NCAA tourney games and concerts and such.

Hypothetically, how early could the Jags possibly leave? Are we looking at maybe next year, or will they need to wait longer?

With the Jags current lease, they need to prove that they've lost money in three consecutive years otherwise they can't break the lease until 2028.

With some creative shuffling a la the Dodgers I'm pretty sure you can show a loss.

[Gothamite]

I believe that is indeed the case.

With the Jags current lease, they need to prove that they've lost money in three consecutive years otherwise they can't break the lease until 2028.

What's his debt service? I heard that he paid cash but not confirmed that it was all his cash. If he's paying off a personal loan that could count against the team's bottom line and make that goal possible.

[Mac the Knife]

Is there any reason that both the Rams and Jags might head to LA? Set up a groundshare like in New York. Would that work, or is that too much like going back to the 80s?

No, in fact it's perhaps the most likely scenario of all if you think about it: the NFL wants both an AFC and NFC team in the market, and a Rams-Jaguars joint flight would satisfy that desire.

[Mac the Knife]

Just out of curiosity, why not?

I can see the logic of thinking he'd keep a team in St. Louis, but why would he keep a team in a struggling market to which he has no attachment, when LA (and, not coincidentally, a massive increase in franchise value) is sitting there for the taking?

Yeah, this is what I'm thinking - I live in Raleigh, but buy a minor league baseball team in Greenville, SC. I can't move it to Raleigh due to territorial issues with another franchise, but can move it to Charlotte, where I get a brand-new facility, a guarantee to host two All-Star Games in the first five years (and be part of its permanent rotation thereafter), an enormous potential fan base compared to Greenville, *and* my franchise automatically jumps in value by at least double the day I move, no matter what. I'm Casper. An apparition. As soon as I can get my feet moving, the team's going to Charlotte.

[Viper]

If the Rams do end up in Los Angeles would the NFL put a team right back in St. Louis just like that with the Jags?

I think that's the reason Khan bought the Jaguars, so he could do just that.

The Rams move back to LA, and Khan ends up owning a franchise in his own St. Louis.

[Addressing Jaguars fans and the Jacksonville community]

"I shall leave you as you left me... as you left Wayne... marooned for all eternity at the center of a dead media market."

[drops to a whisper]

"Buried alive, buried alive..."

[Mac the Knife]

With the Jags current lease, they need to prove that they've lost money in three consecutive years otherwise they can't break the lease until 2028.

Which would work perfectly with respect to a Rams/Jags scenario. Show a loss in 2012, 2013 and 2014, get the NFL's owners to back you on a move, and voila!

[DarkJourney]

Jason Cole article on Yahoo.com:

Jaguars essentially stuck in Jacksonville until ?27

Before you get too far down the road with the idea of the Los Angeles Jaguars, understand that moving the team from Jacksonville isn?t as simple as it might seem. Not today, not a year from now and probably not even four or five years down the line.

Never mind that outgoing owner Wayne Weaver, who saved new owner Shahid Khan the trouble by firing coach Jack Del Rio on Tuesday before announcing the sale, promised that Khan has no plans to move the team. Never mind that Khan put out a public statement saying he was fully committed to bringing Jacksonville its first Super Bowl victory. Just remember that there?s a lease to get out from underneath and it runs through the 2027 season. The lease has one very difficult threshold the team must cross before it can get out, says former Jacksonville Mayor John Delaney, a lawyer who helped write the deal.

?The team would have to show that because of lack of attendance it?s losing money for three straight years and that?s probably a difficult thing for an NFL team to do,? Delaney said. ?That?s there for if the city doesn?t support the team. If we don?t, we shouldn?t stick the team with a long-term lease. But if we support it, they can?t just pretend they?re losing and expect to get out.?

Marc Ganis, the president of SportsCorp, backed that sentiment. Ganis has reviewed the 100-page lease between the team and the city and said it?s ?one of the more difficult leases you?ll see for a team to get out of.?

That threshold, more than the actual money that?s owed to pay off the lease, stands in the way of a possible quick move of the team. In the mid-1990s, Delaney says the city took out approximately $115 million in bonds for improvements on what is now EverBank Field. Delaney guessed the rough amount of the payoff on the bonds would be ?in the area of $60 million.? For a team planning to move, that?s not significant.

?The city you?re moving to would pay that off very quickly if that?s all you?re talking about,? Ganis said.

But fighting through the first threshold could be difficult, if not far more expensive. Under the growing television revenue the NFL receives, teams have never been more profitable. The average value of an NFL team has climbed to approximately $1 billion. In August, Jacksonville was ranked by Forbes as the NFL?s least valuable team at $725 million.

?Even if the team declared that it was losing money, the issue would be litigated and all the books from the team would be subpoenaed,? Delaney said. Litigation could take a year or two, making the quickest the team could leave more than four years away. In addition, the NFL is generally averse to having team financial records made public.

?Could you find a way out of the lease? Yes, but it?s going to take some very serious work and there?s going to be a lot of uncertainty along the way,? Delaney said. ?People in that situation don?t like uncertainty.?

That comes on top of Weaver?s effort to keep people in Los Angeles from buying the team. A source close to billionaire Los Angeles developer Ed Roski said Roski offered Weaver $800 million two years ago for the team, but was rebuffed.

?Weaver wasn?t interested at all in moving the team,? Roski said at the time. ?That?s not the legacy he wants to leave.?

Weaver reiterated that point Tuesday. Although there is nothing in the sales contract barring Khan from moving the team (two sources said the NFL would not allow that language in the agreement), Weaver said he trusts Khan.

?It?s hard to write something to say you are going to force somebody to keep something here,? said Weaver, who added that he expects his grandson to grow up to be a Jaguars fan and attend games in Jacksonville. ?You have to trust individuals? integrity. I?ve no doubt Shahid will do what he says he?s going to do. ? I had to be comfortable that his plans are to keep the team in Jacksonville. There?s not a doubt in my mind he will keep this team in Jacksonville.?

Weaver said Khan, who purchased the team for a reported $760 million, plans to purchase a home in Jacksonville. Khan, 61, built his fortune in the auto parts business after moving to the United States from Pakistan at age 16. He lives in Urbana, Ill., and earned a degree from the University of Illinois before eventually working his way up from employee to owner of Flex-N-Gate.

How does Khan handle this transaction when the Jaguars are dealing with minimal local revenue? Although Khan has been trying to get into the NFL for almost two years (he tried to purchase the St. Louis Rams in early 2010), he is also taking out approximately $350 million in loans to purchase the team, according to a report by Forbes.com.

Ganis has said numerous times that Jacksonville is one of the worst teams in the NFL in making local revenue from sponsorship deals and other avenues. At the same time, with a 10-year collective bargaining agreement in place between owners and players, Ganis said the value of NFL teams is about to spike again.

?You have cost certainty and you have a product that is going through the roof in terms of popularity,? Ganis said. ?I think we?re about to see a massive increase in the value of teams.?

[rams80]

Again, I think it would be possible for even Jerry Jones to show he is losing money if he cooks the books/sets up the right arrangement.