NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[Quillz]

You bring up an interesting point. The Vikings dangled LA and got a stadium out of it. The Bills didn't, and last I read, they were working with the city/state to try to get a new stadium. You could say the NFL learned its lesson from the Cleveland debacle and wouldn't let a team with a rich history and strong attendance move, such as the Vikings or Bills, but I'm not sure. Either way, a team in LA would be worth a hell of a lot more than a team in Buffalo, and yet there was nothing about the Bills heading west.

I'm not saying St. Louis would ever be a great football market, but if Khan owned the Rams and felt he could financially competitive there, I don't think he would have moved them.

Regarding the Bills, I always heard they were considering a permanent move to Toronto, even though that would conflict with the CFL. Was there any truth to that?

[STL FANATIC]

You bring up an interesting point. The Vikings dangled LA and got a stadium out of it. The Bills didn't, and last I read, they were working with the city/state to try to get a new stadium. You could say the NFL learned its lesson from the Cleveland debacle and wouldn't let a team with a rich history and strong attendance move, such as the Vikings or Bills, but I'm not sure. Either way, a team in LA would be worth a hell of a lot more than a team in Buffalo, and yet there was nothing about the Bills heading west.

I'm not saying St. Louis would ever be a great football market, but if Khan owned the Rams and felt he could financially competitive there, I don't think he would have moved them.

Regarding the Bills, I always heard they were considering a permanent move to Toronto, even though that would conflict with the CFL. Was there any truth to that?

Probably. But I don't think it was ever their primary desire. And then the series in Toronto didn't go well. And then Ralph Wilson passed, and the team had to be sold by the family, and they sold to Pegula who is very committed to staying in Buffalo.

So did they consider it? They probably considered it. Did they threaten it or take steps to pull off such a move. Probably not.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

You bring up an interesting point. The Vikings dangled LA and got a stadium out of it. The Bills didn't, and last I read, they were working with the city/state to try to get a new stadium. You could say the NFL learned its lesson from the Cleveland debacle and wouldn't let a team with a rich history and strong attendance move, such as the Vikings or Bills, but I'm not sure. Either way, a team in LA would be worth a hell of a lot more than a team in Buffalo, and yet there was nothing about the Bills heading west.

I'm not saying St. Louis would ever be a great football market, but if Khan owned the Rams and felt he could financially competitive there, I don't think he would have moved them.

Regarding the Bills, I always heard they were considering a permanent move to Toronto, even though that would conflict with the CFL. Was there any truth to that?

Probably. But I don't think it was ever their primary desire. And then the series in Toronto didn't go well. And then Ralph Wilson passed, and the team had to be sold by the family, and they sold to Pegula who is very committed to staying in Buffalo.

So did they consider it? They probably considered it. Did they threaten it or take steps to pull off such a move. Probably not.

The Toronto series was absolutely an audition for a full-time move north. Luckily for Buffalo, it was a disaster on all fronts. And then the city benefited from all of Pegula's sweet fracking money.

[Gothamite]

Am I just not saying this clearly enough?

There is a difference between living up to the contract and between trying to stay in St. Louis.

He was doing the formerwhich was his rightbut absolutely not the latter. And I don't think it's particularly debatable, though I keep being surprised.

Obviously I am the one not being clear, because my point was that if St. Louis ever deigned to meet Kroenke halfway, I believe he would have tried to stay in St. Louis.

But I lay this entirely at the feet of the city fathers, as I have for years while we watched this train wreck happen in slow motion. They never seemed to care until it was too late. They ignored the early warnings. They came to the table only when forced to do, and even then had a half-hearted proposal. Then the situation became clear even to them, and the response was a half-serious plan that fell short on the funding side. A decade, with nothing to show for it.

I do believe this was avoidable. But it would have required meeting the Rams halfway, which they never did.

[The_Admiral]

God, this is almost as ugly as St. Louis.

Obviously I am the one not being clear, because my point was that if St. Louis ever deigned to meet Kroenke halfway, I believe he would have tried to stay in St. Louis.

I'm starting to doubt this.

[Gothamite]

We'll never know, because they couldn't be bothered. It's maddening.

[2001mark]

Toronto is an NFL town, not a Bills town. They sold us ridiculous ticket pricing for Bills' home games. Try again.

Actually, what Toronto fans want is to pay & root for our own team. We're the 4th largest market on the continent; if we were a Bills region, they'd not have as many financial challenges.

[Cosmic]

Maybe some Torontonians can elaborate, but I thought the consensus on the boards was that an NFL stadium wasn't gonna happen in the GTA. Not anytime soon, at least.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Toronto is an NFL town, not a Bills town. They sold us ridiculous ticket pricing for Bills' home games. Try again.

Actually, what Toronto fans want is to pay & root for our own team. We're the 4th largest market on the continent; if we were a Bills region, they'd not have as many financial challenges.

Toronto had an opportunity to show it was an NFL town and they blew it.

Obligatory (NSFW language, but awesome):

[STL FANATIC]

Am I just not saying this clearly enough?

There is a difference between living up to the contract and between trying to stay in St. Louis.

He was doing the formerwhich was his rightbut absolutely not the latter. And I don't think it's particularly debatable, though I keep being surprised.

Obviously I am the one not being clear, because my point was that if St. Louis ever deigned to meet Kroenke halfway, I believe he would have tried to stay in St. Louis.

But I lay this entirely at the feet of the city fathers, as I have for years while we watched this train wreck happen in slow motion. They never seemed to care until it was too late. They ignored the early warnings. They came to the table only when forced to do, and even then had a half-hearted proposal. Then the situation became clear even to them, and the response was a half-serious plan that fell short on the funding side. A decade, with nothing to show for it.

I do believe this was avoidable. But it would have required meeting the Rams halfway, which they never did.

I haven't changed your mind on anything in 2 years, I won't try any further on this.

But I can't come close to seeing how one can read Kroenke's actions as anything but calculated moves to exploit the lease and cash in on LA. Agree to disagree it is.

[STL FANATIC]

We'll never know, because they couldn't be bothered. It's maddening.

Actually, I'm going to comment on this part. It's not maddening at all. You know how we all generally agree that the deal St. Louis did put forth wasn't a very good deal for St. Louis?

Anything Kroenke would have considered meeting him halfway would have been a BRUTAL deal for St. Louis. (And there are truly no indications Kroenke's halfway would have been anywhere near HALF-way.)

St. Louis couldn't meet him halfway. When they tried to talk to them, he pointed them to the process outlined in the lease. He WANTED arbitration. He got it, and he got his way out.

St. Louis made one* mistake. That happened in 1995.

(* Undoubtedly they made more than one mistake because nobody is even almost perfect.)

[colortv]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR484xIOOU4

Full video from the press conference after the meetings. A couple of the St. Louis reporters really go after Kroenke.

[dfwabel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR484xIOOU4

Full video from the press conference after the meetings. A couple of the St. Louis reporters really go after Kroenke.

Thank you for being so timely...as usual.

[Rockstar Matt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR484xIOOU4

Full video from the press conference after the meetings. A couple of the St. Louis reporters really go after Kroenke.

Thank you for being so timely...as usual.

Lol, that might be the funniest thing you've ever said.

[dfwabel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR484xIOOU4

Full video from the press conference after the meetings. A couple of the St. Louis reporters really go after Kroenke.

Thank you for being so timely...as usual.

Lol, that might be the funniest thing you've ever said.

What got Matt "Ram Crazy"?

The cart or cycle or basic driver lessons or nothing?

Matt, how is the your motor life like or is the band led by your sister (and the infrared41 bet)?

[Gothamite]

We'll never know, because they couldn't be bothered. It's maddening.

Actually, I'm going to comment on this part. It's not maddening at all. You know how we all generally agree that the deal St. Louis did put forth wasn't a very good deal for St. Louis?

Anything Kroenke would have considered meeting him halfway would have been a BRUTAL deal for St. Louis. (And there are truly no indications Kroenke's halfway would have been anywhere near HALF-way.)

St. Louis couldn't meet him halfway. When they tried to talk to them, he pointed them to the process outlined in the lease. He WANTED arbitration. He got it, and he got his way out.

St. Louis made one* mistake. That happened in 1995.

(* Undoubtedly they made more than one mistake because nobody is even almost perfect.)

Yes, the final deal proposed was a bad one for St Louis. But that's what happens when you blow off a deadline and try to cobble something together at the last possible minute. You end up with a bad deal, a desperate deal.

I do believe that if St. Louis had bothered to do the slightest bit of work in the decade leading up to today, the Rams might very well still be in your city. The lack of urgency from everybody involved was maddening to me on the outside, and it's hard for me to blame Kroenke for being thoroughly unimpressed. He never had a serious partner there.

It's as though everybody believed the hype, that there's no way the bylaws and guidelines would let him move the team, so we don't really need to worry about it and we don't really need to take him seriously.

That's nothing new, it's exactly what I've been saying for years. And it's a real shame. I hate hate hate to see a Midwestern city lose its team, any team, but I find it very hard to blame Stan in this.

Again, we've said it before, but it's remarkable how irresponsible m the public officials have been, to make Stan Kroenke look like the most reasonable man in the room.

This sucks today. I know. And I'm sorry you have to go through it. But your ire is pointed squarely in the wrong direction.

[FiddySicks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR484xIOOU4

Full video from the press conference after the meetings. A couple of the St. Louis reporters really go after Kroenke.

Thank you for being so timely...as usual.

Lol, that might be the funniest thing you've ever said.

What got Matt "Ram Crazy"?

The cart or cycle or basic driver lessons or nothing?

Matt, how is the your motor life like or is the band led by your sister (and the infrared41 bet)?

Haha look, Abe is trying to throw shade again.

[leopard88]

And in time, Cleveland generations will forget or ignore that the "original Browns" left, and Art Modell will become just a footnote in history. Infrared or fans prior to 1995 might hate Modell when they're 105 years old, but by then there will be 80 year-olds who only know of the current franchise.

Actually, I've never blamed Art Modell for the loss of the Browns - at least not entirely. You'll hear various versions of who is at fault for losing the Browns - some blame Art entirely, others let him entirely off the hook - the truth is there is plenty of blame to go around. The whole thing was a complete cluster- . I don't hate Art Modell, but I was pretty pissed that he acted like a child who didn't get exactly what he wanted for Christmas.

Here's one version.

Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwEeo4BEnlw&index=63&list=PL2z5vW7PDlpOs6rpWUWgg6YFgYU5ucwhK

There's also a Walter O'Malley version.

Then, there's the 'the NFL wanted new markets, so our only option was a relocated team'.... so, if the league is that horrible and doesn't want you. Why would you want to be a part of it? Why not put your weight behind the Orioles. Or the CFL Stallions (which were also another victim of the Browns moving).

Why? Because an NFL franchise provides significant benefits to any city, both tangible and intangible (with the intangible probably outweighing the tangible)*. Do you think Baltimore fans were really dying to establish rivalries with the Calgary Stampeders and the Winnipeg Blue Bombers?

My freshman roommate was turned down by the United States Naval Academy coming of high school. He reapplied and was admitted after his freshman year of college (but still had to start fresh as a plebe). Maybe he shouldn't have reapplied, because he shouldn't have wanted to attend an institution that didn't want him.

* -- As an example of the intangible benefits, how many of us would have any idea where Green Bay is if not for the existence of the Packers? It's roughly the same size as Lewisville, TX, Clovis, CA, High Point, NC and Davenport, IA.

EDIT: No one in Baltimore ever suggested the NFL was "horrible." If it was truly horrible, there wouldn't have been multiple cities clamoring for teams in the mid-90s.

[BBTV]

Toronto is an NFL town, not a Bills town. They sold us ridiculous ticket pricing for Bills' home games. Try again.

Actually, what Toronto fans want is to pay & root for our own team. We're the 4th largest market on the continent; if we were a Bills region, they'd not have as many financial challenges.

You sure about that?

[TheOldRoman]

And in time, Cleveland generations will forget or ignore that the "original Browns" left, and Art Modell will become just a footnote in history. Infrared or fans prior to 1995 might hate Modell when they're 105 years old, but by then there will be 80 year-olds who only know of the current franchise.

Actually, I've never blamed Art Modell for the loss of the Browns - at least not entirely. You'll hear various versions of who is at fault for losing the Browns - some blame Art entirely, others let him entirely off the hook - the truth is there is plenty of blame to go around. The whole thing was a complete cluster- . I don't hate Art Modell, but I was pretty pissed that he acted like a child who didn't get exactly what he wanted for Christmas.

I didn't know your position, but I was speaking more generally. Among people your age, I'm sure a huge portion blames Modell and still hates him to this day. But like I said, in 60 or 70 years, the loss of the original Browns will be just a trivia question.You can say now that these Browns are technically not the original Browns, but in time, it won't matter and nobody will actually view it that way. The only pain Browns fans will feel will be of continued failure (if they do keep failing).