NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[Gothamite]

"more Rams merchandise being sold in the UK" doesn't even particularly benefit the Rams, much less St. Louis.

[STL FANATIC]

"more Rams merchandise being sold in the UK" doesn't even particularly benefit the Rams, much less St. Louis.

It could in the long-haul benefit the Rams as a means of building their brand. But that sorta thing isn't overly tangible.

Of course, monetarily it would benefit the Rams some if more merchandise is sold, but no more than if it were Patriots or any other teams merchandise due to the equal sharing.

As for St. Louis, nope, the benefit towards them from these games as a whole is a little sketchy, and certainly it won't come from merchandise being sold.

It WILL give the city a platform to promote itself, but I think they'd have to go above and beyond while on that platform for it to mean much. Maybe local corporations can get some good out of, I dunno.

In related news, Kroenke has supposedly advanced to the second round of bidding on the Dodgers. At this point, whether that's true or not, I almost wonder if he had his people leak that just to spite the leverage the CVC was after. It's probably true anyways, but this whole situation has me putting everything under the microscope.

[Saintsfan]

I've a question on revenue sharing, if all merchandise profits are shared in that way, and other revenues as well, how does it encourage weaker teams to improve? What is their to encourage the Raiders or Rams or Jaguars to improve, given that it's expensive to build an effective team?

[Gothamite]

With the new CBA, there's a salary floor and cap that drastically reduces the difference between a well-paid team and a poorly-paid one. So there's no real incentive not to compete; this isn't baseball, where the owner of the Twins was allowed to just pocket revenue-sharing money (then again, baseball doesnt even allow that anymore).

There are significant incentives to compete, on the other hand. First is ticket sales, a substantial part of a team's income. That is why blackouts, or buying up your own tickets to avoid blackouts, are so troubling. Merchandise sold within the stadium is not subject to the same revenue-sharing percentages (if at all), so again teams that pull in fans have an advantage. Not to mention the local revenue that comes from a large, excited fanbase eager to support "the official floor polish and dessert topping of the _____________s".

That's the financial incentive to field a good team.

[Saintsfan]

With the new CBA, there's a salary floor and cap that drastically reduces the difference between a well-paid team and a poorly-paid one. So there's no real incentive not to compete; this isn't baseball, where the owner of the Twins was allowed to just pocket revenue-sharing money (then again, baseball doesnt even allow that anymore).

There are significant incentives to compete, on the other hand. First is ticket sales, a substantial part of a team's income. That is why blackouts, or buying up your own tickets to avoid blackouts, are so troubling. Merchandise sold within the stadium is not subject to the same revenue-sharing percentages (if at all), so again teams that pull in fans have an advantage. Not to mention the local revenue that comes from a large, excited fanbase eager to support "the official floor polish and dessert topping of the _____________s".

That's the financial incentive to field a good team.

That doesn't seem such a disinsentive to field mediocre teams though.

Then again their is a minimum salary level as well as a cap if I remember correctly? So the CBA kind of acknowledges that!

[Gothamite]

That's what I said - a salary floor as well as cap.

There is a huge financial incentive to field a good team. Ask Mike Brown if he'd rather have the Packers' merchandising revenues than the Bengals'.

Even setting aside the whole pride thing, the rewards for a good on-field product are enormous. Local businesses don't pay the same for stadium ads if the team doesn't have lots of fans. They also don't pay to use team logos in their own ad campaigns if that logo doesn't draw interest. Nor do they pay lots of cash for the right to call themselves "the official ______" if fans don't follow. Companies pay more for stadium naming rights if they know that the name will be repeated during prime-time games. In-stadium merchandise sales stay with the team, not pooled like regular sales. Raio rights are infinitely more valuable if people actually listen to the games. And there's the massive ticket revenue that a popular and successful team can claim.

And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure if we thought about it we could come up with many more examples of tangible financial benefit that comes with on-field success.

There are no owners in the NFL who sit back, collect paychecks and don't care about winning (some owners just suck at their job, which is another thing altogether). The business model just doesn't reward it.

[DaytonBlue]

-I still think the CVC was wise to bring up this lease issue, if for nothing else to create some good PR locally on their front. Stan won't get top tier status since that would require $200 million+ (at least from looking at the renovations of the Superdome and BC Place) and STL doesn't have that kind of "jack". If he's hell bent on top tier, they're good as gone so I don't think they lose anything by bringing this up.

-In essence, this is a negotiation for a lease extension because for all intensive purposes the current lease will be up in 2015. Perhaps they can offer him something to sign on for another 10 years or so, then it's new stadium time.

[Gothamite]

I've read that on Rams message boards, but I don't think it's particularly realistic.

Kroenke is sitting on a gold mine. A sure thing. LA is his for the taking. He could wait out the lease until 2015 (if he doesn't want to simply buy his way out sooner), then move into a brand-new stadium that will be hosting a Super Bowl soon after that. Huge market, huge splash, lots of dollars to be tapped. There has to be a compelling argument made to keep him from seizing that opportunity.

Halfway measures with vague promises of "making it up to you down the road" won't do it, considering they weren't able to make good on the last set of promises.

I think the only thing St. Louis can do to keep the Rams is come out with a dynamic, amazing proposal. No half-assed measures. Although I've been skeptical of the notion that giving him free real estate would suffice, they'd need something similarly out of the box. Some really creative, splashy, "Spectacular Spectacular" deal.

If the CVC offers up compromise packages and deferred obligations on their part, the Rams might as well start looking for homes along PCH.

[DaytonBlue]

These things would make me disagree with you, or at least keep some hope in them staying in the Dome/St. Louis for a few more years after 2015.

-So far everything I've heard about the LA proposals involve those developers (AEG/Roski) getting a share of the team. Silent Stan hasn't been talkative, but I think he wants to keep the whole team.

-The Dome lease is only $25K a game.

This thing would make me think they're gone: Kroenke gets the Dodgers.

The whole thing kind of makes me sick. I've gone to around 80 games in 17 years, all but one or two with my Dad.

[Gothamite]

Both LA developers originally wanted to buy a controlling share of the relocating team. Both have dropped that demand.

I'm pretty sure that won't be a stumbling block to getting a deal done, especially since everyone expects the new LA stadium to host two teams. The first gets the place built, they can own a piece of the second one.

OTOH, I don't know what to think about Kroenke and the Dodgers. I can't shake the sense that this is a red herring.

Please understand, I take no pleasure in predicting a move. I'm about 1/2 New York and 1/2 Milwaukee, two cities still hurting from the loss of beloved baseball franchises. This isn't about what I want to happen but what I think will.

[rvrdgsfn]

$124 million in St. Louis dome upgrades proposed

ST. LOUIS (AP)?The St. Louis Convention & Visitors Commission is proposing $124 million in improvements to the Edward Jones Dome in hopes of keeping the Rams in St. Louis.

A lease agreement with the team requires the dome to be among the top 25 percent of all stadiums as measured by various criteria. If not, the Rams could break the lease after the 2014 season and potentially move. Owner Stan Kroenke has been non-committal about keeping the Rams in St. Louis.

The CVC plan includes adding 1,500 new club seats, installing a massive 96-foot-long scoreboard over the center of the field and adding windows for more natural light.

Officials say the Rams would be responsible for 52 percent of the cost. Voters in St. Louis city and county would have to approve ballot measures funding the remaining $60 million.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Ao4Wtl2Fk5upzA2ND..N0MFDubYF?slug=ap-ramslease

[rams80]

$124 million in St. Louis dome upgrades proposed

ST. LOUIS (AP)—The St. Louis Convention & Visitors Commission is proposing $124 million in improvements to the Edward Jones Dome in hopes of keeping the Rams in St. Louis.

A lease agreement with the team requires the dome to be among the top 25 percent of all stadiums as measured by various criteria. If not, the Rams could break the lease after the 2014 season and potentially move. Owner Stan Kroenke has been non-committal about keeping the Rams in St. Louis.

The CVC plan includes adding 1,500 new club seats, installing a massive 96-foot-long scoreboard over the center of the field and adding windows for more natural light.

Officials say the Rams would be responsible for 52 percent of the cost. Voters in St. Louis city and county would have to approve ballot measures funding the remaining $60 million.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Ao4Wtl2Fk5upzA2ND..N0MFDubYF?slug=ap-ramslease

Start breaking out your LA Rams gear folks. Kroenke would be insane to accept this or anything within its ballpark.

[Gothamite]

$60 million? That's their opening bid? And not even guaranteed, but subject to a public vote?

I'm with you. That hardly shows a good-faith effort to meet their obligations under the lease. Looks like I was right; they did the math and found no sizable risks if they lose the Rams.

This is almost packing Kroenke's bags.

[STL FANATIC]

I actually trust the CVC here. This probably isn't enough, but they can get there from this. They seem extremely confident that they understand what the lease says and that these types of upgrades would indeed meet the lease. And remember, if it goes to arbitration, a judge is more likely to side with the city than the sports mogul on what the lease calls for.

I dunno. But I'm not (any more) worried yet.

[rams80]

I actually trust the CVC here. This probably isn't enough, but they can get there from this. They seem extremely confident that they understand what the lease says and that these types of upgrades would indeed meet the lease. And remember, if it goes to arbitration, a judge is more likely to side with the city than the sports mogul on what the lease calls for.

I dunno. But I'm not (any more) worried yet.

Well, some of the proposed upgrades I'm also skeptical about. Such as whether the roof can support a jumbotron like the JerryDome's. Especially if you're knocking out walls to put in windows. And even if you can, whether that actually fits within the proposed price tag.

[Gothamite]

I'm still stunned by the lowball $60M offer. Has anyone seen the lease? My understanding based on the reporting was that the CVC was required to bring the Dome up to the fabled "top tier", not the Rams.

And remember, if it goes to arbitration, a judge is more likely to side with the city than the sports mogul on what the lease calls for.

1. What makes you say that?

2. If arbitration fails, the Rams leave after 2014. That's the whole point of an escape clause.

[DnBronc]

$124 million in St. Louis dome upgrades proposed

ST. LOUIS (AP)?The St. Louis Convention & Visitors Commission is proposing $124 million in improvements to the Edward Jones Dome in hopes of keeping the Rams in St. Louis.

A lease agreement with the team requires the dome to be among the top 25 percent of all stadiums as measured by various criteria. If not, the Rams could break the lease after the 2014 season and potentially move. Owner Stan Kroenke has been non-committal about keeping the Rams in St. Louis.

The CVC plan includes adding 1,500 new club seats, installing a massive 96-foot-long scoreboard over the center of the field and adding windows for more natural light.

Officials say the Rams would be responsible for 52 percent of the cost. Voters in St. Louis city and county would have to approve ballot measures funding the remaining $60 million.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Ao4Wtl2Fk5upzA2ND..N0MFDubYF?slug=ap-ramslease

Start breaking out your LA Rams gear folks. Kroenke would be insane to accept this or anything within its ballpark.

Please, Kroenke, move the Rams to LA. Then, Khan, move the Jags to St. Louis to take their place.

That would be my ideal scenario, and right two wrongs from the 90's.

[bosrs1]

$124 million in St. Louis dome upgrades proposed

ST. LOUIS (AP)?The St. Louis Convention & Visitors Commission is proposing $124 million in improvements to the Edward Jones Dome in hopes of keeping the Rams in St. Louis.

A lease agreement with the team requires the dome to be among the top 25 percent of all stadiums as measured by various criteria. If not, the Rams could break the lease after the 2014 season and potentially move. Owner Stan Kroenke has been non-committal about keeping the Rams in St. Louis.

The CVC plan includes adding 1,500 new club seats, installing a massive 96-foot-long scoreboard over the center of the field and adding windows for more natural light.

Officials say the Rams would be responsible for 52 percent of the cost. Voters in St. Louis city and county would have to approve ballot measures funding the remaining $60 million.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Ao4Wtl2Fk5upzA2ND..N0MFDubYF?slug=ap-ramslease

Start breaking out your LA Rams gear folks. Kroenke would be insane to accept this or anything within its ballpark.

Please, Kroenke, move the Rams to LA. Then, Khan, move the Jags to St. Louis to take their place.

That would be my ideal scenario, and right two wrongs from the 90's.

You may get your wish. Can't say a provisional $60 million offer sounds all that promising for the future of the team in St. Louis. Kroenke has his out if he wants it now.

[STL FANATIC]

Nobody's seen the lease, but the CVC has. And it's evidently not just a fabled top-tier. There's 12 things that need to meet the criteria, and they strongly believe this proposal does so.

The funding is interesting, and I'll be curious to see how it plays out. The idea is that 52% is the average amount NFL teams pay for in stadium construction and renovation. The Rams have previously mentioned being open to putting forth some of their own money, and the league has opened up the fund again. I don't think the CVC paying for 48% will cut it, but this is the opening bid. I think you'll see the whole proposal go a little higher and you'll see the CVC responsible for a greater chunk. I could see $80 million of a $150 million plan.

As for my comments on the judge, it's not a fact, but I think it stands to reason that a government employed judge is going to side more with his constituents and his fellow government workers than with a billionaire looking for more money. If the judge has something against sports and giving any public money to them, that could change. That's a bit of a wild card, but it'd probably be political suicide for him to do so.

From what I've been able to understand, the arbitration won't be binding, so you're correct that it could fail and Kroenke could leave after 2014. However, I'm also less convinced than you that the league would be giddy about letting Kroenke have LA. It will/would be one thing if Kroenke's really getting low balled (you may think he is right now, but one its early, and two, we have no idea what the lease says or what the parties involved are feeling about it) and can tell the league he tried but the stadium option here isn't bearable. But if the proposal is good and fair about where the money comes from, and Minnesota and San Diego and Oakland all are struggling to get better stadium situations, I'm not convinced the NFL will be eager to let Kroenke bypass the improvements in St. Louis.

I think there's a lot of misconceptions right now, but I can't claim to be an expert, either. But I'm optimistic after reading the proposal. I feel very strongly that a deal will ultimately be reached. The CVC put real effort into this and has already acknowledged that they'll be flexible going forward. If the Rams (not Kroenke because he never talks but his righthand man, Demoff) were even halfway telling the truth about their intentions, then I think things are trending very positively for the future of the Rams in St. Louis.

By the way, here's the Post-Dispatch's article. It has a few renderings. Nothing overly detailed, however.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/officials-present-million-plan-to-keep-rams-in-st-louis/article_bd7bf264-4d21-11e1-a94d-0019bb30f31a.html

[dfwabel]

I actually trust the CVC here. This probably isn't enough, but they can get there from this. They seem extremely confident that they understand what the lease says and that these types of upgrades would indeed meet the lease. And remember, if it goes to arbitration, a judge is more likely to side with the city than the sports mogul on what the lease calls for.

I dunno. But I'm not (any more) worried yet.

Well, some of the proposed upgrades I'm also skeptical about. Such as whether the roof can support a jumbotron like the JerryDome's. Especially if you're knocking out walls to put in windows. And even if you can, whether that actually fits within the proposed price tag.

As far as the roof load, it really depends on what the architects and engineers calculate it can support.

They want to add 1,500 more club seats and give the team that revenue, but current ones with the existing PSL balance are available here. Unless they have less concrete and more terrazzo or tile, this does not really mean much. The "tech center" sounds OK, but people want to stay in their seats with their tablet/iPad as opposed to being in a club lounge area.