leopard88

Deflategate -- Patriots Busted

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Revoke the title, suspend Brady and Belichick indefinitely, and force the team to play in front of empty stadiums for the 2015 season. That would be my suggested punishment. But anyway...June's coming. At least I can watch the CFL in relative peace.

That is a perfectly reasonable punishment. If you were American, I'd nominate you for SCOTUS.

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Simply that I find it hard to care about the competitive balance of a football game after it's revealed that a major NCAA program had been aiding a rapist for over a decade or that the NFL is full of grown men who hit children and women.

That's a silly argument. We are adults, perfectly capable of holding two thoughts in our heads. We can care about punishing cheaters and criminals.

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I'd tend to agree.

There should be suspensions for it, but I doubt the NFL will actually do that. Especially since there is obviously a lack of institutional control at that franchise. The owner and coach deserve to sit for a while.

I'd say the bigger problem is the lack of control at the NFL level, and that's why there won't be much in the way of punishment. I mean from the report it's obvious both teams under inflated to some degree, that at prior games balls have been overinflated... There's never been any real effort by the NFL to ensure balls are within the range until the Colts complained (I mean hell the ref's gauges weren't even identically calibrated and had a +/- range of .5 each). And if the Colts had complained about anyone other than the Patriots this wouldn't even have been a story.

And with this case in particular we have some highly circumstantial evidence, mainly of two underlings generally acting like douches anyway, who had no love for Brady, who may have deflated the balls within a margin of error of the possible natural deflation of them and the ref's shoddy equipment. No evidence Brady did anything against league rules or that it was an institutional order from within the team. Just speculative connections made by the investigator backed by nothing. There will be a fine, maybe a draft pick, and a new "ball commission" or something like that controlling balls by the league from now on. They know there is a league wide problem, so they'll address it that way and say it's a win for everyone.

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Simply that I find it hard to care about the competitive balance of a football game after it's revealed that a major NCAA program had been aiding a rapist for over a decade or that the NFL is full of grown men who hit children and women.

That's a silly argument. We are adults, perfectly capable of holding two thoughts in our heads. We can care about punishing cheaters and criminals.

Heh. Silly? No, it's just that the worlds collided.

Sports are, ultimately, meaningless. An escape. Within the realm of that it's fine to "hate" Tom Brady or the New York Yankees, or get "outraged" if a team deflates a football in a game that they won handedly anyway. Does any of that matter? Really? The answer, of course, is that none of it does.

I'm upset that Israel and the Palestinian Authority have yet to reach a fair and equitable settlement. I'm "upset" that the Leafs haven't won the Stanley Cup since 1967. There's a very real difference.

So when the real world crashes into the escapist world? When you inject domestic abuse and rape allegations into the realm where previously the only thing you were pissed off about was a blown call or a team caught cheating? Well the things that were fine to be "outraged" over before just don't seem worthy of it any more.

You're free to call it fatigue. I don't see it like that. I see it as things getting just a bit clearer, giving us a chance to perhaps re-examine just what's worthy being "outraged" over. By all means, punish the guilty parties. I'm just not going to morally outraged over it.

While I'm more then willing to accept that perhaps it was only my personal view of sports and how they relate to everything else that was "popped," I'm not entirely sure. We're living in the age of social media and a press more interested in exposing celebrities and athletes rather then protecting them. The light's going to shine a lot brighter on all of this in the future, and we're all going to have to decide just what is worth being "outraged" over. Deflategate? Sorry, doesn't make the cut.

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Being a Patriots fan I am disappointed with this. I will be fine with whatever punishment is handed down provided it is not extreme. But what really gets me is the idiots saying that everything they have done in the last 15 years should be vacated. Why? Because they are the Patriots and they just had to cheat... There is no reason to vacate anything. We won what we won and it is not being given up.

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There will be no punishment, Goodell dose not ever punish his Pats.

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Does any of this negate the fact that the Pats steamrolled the Colts in that game? That's why I just can't get up in arms about this. It's not like the game was close. A properly inflated football wouldn't have made the Colts run defence any more effective. The Pats, like it or not, deserved to win that game.

Thing is, it's the intent that matters, and the Patriots clearly intended to cheat. The Colts deciding not to show up for that game doesn't make the Pats' cheating any less wrong.

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Does any of this negate the fact that the Pats steamrolled the Colts in that game? That's why I just can't get up in arms about this. It's not like the game was close. A properly inflated football wouldn't have made the Colts run defence any more effective. The Pats, like it or not, deserved to win that game.

Did Nixon really need to order that raid on the Democratic Party Headquarters in 1972?

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Does any of this negate the fact that the Pats steamrolled the Colts in that game? That's why I just can't get up in arms about this. It's not like the game was close. A properly inflated football wouldn't have made the Colts run defence any more effective. The Pats, like it or not, deserved to win that game.

Did Nixon really need to order that raid on the Democratic Party Headquarters in 1972?

Nah, but I'm not going to equate a president spying on his political opponents to a football team cheating in a game they won handily anyway. One is not like the other.

Does any of this negate the fact that the Pats steamrolled the Colts in that game? That's why I just can't get up in arms about this. It's not like the game was close. A properly inflated football wouldn't have made the Colts run defence any more effective. The Pats, like it or not, deserved to win that game.

Thing is, it's the intent that matters, and the Patriots clearly intended to cheat. The Colts deciding not to show up for that game doesn't make the Pats' cheating any less wrong.

Wrong? Yes. Punishment worthy? Yes. Worth all the hand-wringing and outrage and ridiculous calls for indefinite suspensions, record book re-writes, and the like? Not. By. A. Long. Shot.

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Being a Patriot fan is so enjoyable.

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Everyone who is outraged and displaying a general holier than thou attitude, just remember...

http://yourteamcheats.com/

This site is so obviously written by a biased (and butthurt) Patriots fan that it's not even worth discussing.

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Everyone who is outraged and displaying a general holier than thou attitude, just remember...

http://yourteamcheats.com/

That's inaccurate because it does not account for the Rams having brought back the bounty system.

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Does any of this negate the fact that the Pats steamrolled the Colts in that game? That's why I just can't get up in arms about this. It's not like the game was close. A properly inflated football wouldn't have made the Colts run defence any more effective. The Pats, like it or not, deserved to win that game.

Did Nixon really need to order that raid on the Democratic Party Headquarters in 1972?

Nah, but I'm not going to equate a president spying on his political opponents to a football team cheating in a game they won handily anyway. One is not like the other.

The analogy works in the context of "cheated despite inevitable electoral blowout"

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Real quick question before I start campaigning for a Kraft suspension.

Is he for or against a Rams move to Los Angeles?

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The analogy works in the context of "cheated despite inevitable electoral blowout"

Yeah, but it's the scale of it all that I just can't get passed. The Pats won that game. They went up against the defending champions in a game you know the League ensured was as by the book as possible and came up on top. In the realm of sports? The best team won the championship. Sucks if you don't like that team, but hey. That's true every single year in every single sport.

Nixon was winning re-election easily, but he still broke the law. The law (and integrity of the American Presidency), of course, being a much more serious matter then the NFL's rulebook.

Everyone who is outraged and displaying a general holier than thou attitude, just remember...

http://yourteamcheats.com/

This site is so obviously written by a biased (and butthurt) Patriots fan that it's not even worth discussing.

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Everyone who is outraged and displaying a general holier than thou attitude, just remember...

http://yourteamcheats.com/

This site is so obviously written by a biased (and butthurt) Patriots fan that it's not even worth discussing.

There's very little factual information there and a whole lot of bias. For example, "Suck for Luck" was literally rated worse than actual cheating like Spygate or Deflategate. Additionally, the Chargers' fake Stickum scandal, for which they were completely exonerated and didn't even have to pay a fine, was listed as cheating.

But yeah, I'm sure a website that consistently refers to Roger Goodell as "former Jets public relation intern," magically scores the Jets, Ravens, Steelers, Colts, and Broncos (the Patriots' biggest AFC rivals) as the biggest cheaters in the league, has a whole page devoted to how Spygate wasn't really that bad, and was put online as a response to another Patriots cheating scandal is totally unbiased and factual. :rolleyes:

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If that's not constructed by a Patriots fan I'll be stunned.

I like how the Steelers have the most cheats levied against them on that website. They're the real cheaters of the NFL, but it's only the Patriots who ever get the heavy heat.

That's not an endorsement of the Patriots, however. Their dynasty will still be questioned forever, just like how the Steelers of the 70's were basically North Dallas Forty times 10.

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Nixon New England was winning re-election the AFC Chapmpionship easily, but he the Patriots still broke the law the rules. The law rules (and integrity of the (new) American Presidency Pasttime), of course, being a much more serious matter then the NFL's rulebook life itself. (Sarcasm added in last phrase.)

Again, no one is saying that this is just as or more important as the things you've brought up, Mike. All of that is obviously much more important than some ball sport.

But within the constructs of what we're talking about, the Patriots broke the rules. Blowout win, monitored Super Bowl, or otherwise. Anyone calling for indefinite or lengthy suspensions is just being ridiculous. They should (won't say will because, NFL) get the requisite punishment of fines and draft picks, hopefully on a scale up on Spygate because of the repeat offense. I'm not asking for fire and brimstone, but they still need to be held accountable in the system.

Just because there are murders committed doesn't mean parking tickets stop being handed out, right?

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Don Banks SI.com;

'But for Brady, the real shame of it all may be this: If you’re going to tarnish your good name after all these years, is a penchant for wanting footballs slightly under-inflated truly worth the taint?'

I lol'd.

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Nixon New England was winning re-election the AFC Chapmpionship easily, but he the Patriots still broke the law the rules. The law rules (and integrity of the (new) American Presidency Pasttime), of course, being a much more serious matter then the NFL's rulebook life itself. (Sarcasm added in last phrase.)

Again, no one is saying that this is just as or more important as the things you've brought up, Mike. All of that is obviously much more important than some ball sport.

But within the constructs of what we're talking about, the Patriots broke the rules. Blowout win, monitored Super Bowl, or otherwise. Anyone calling for indefinite or lengthy suspensions is just being ridiculous. They should (won't say will because, NFL) get the requisite punishment of fines and draft picks, hopefully on a scale up on Spygate because of the repeat offense. I'm not asking for fire and brimstone, but they still need to be held accountable in the system.

Just because there are murders committed doesn't mean parking tickets stop being handed out, right?

You're missing my point.

Murders and parking tickets? Not what I'm getting at. Not at all. And I could go on a whole spiel, but I'd literally be repeating myself. I am not saying that "Deflategate" (UGHHHH) isn't worthy of punishment because there are worse crimes out there. I'm really not sure how many times I need to keep saying that.

What I am saying is that you're (a general "you") wasting your time if you want me to feel even the tiniest bit of outrage or moral indignation over this when the sport of football has so much more that's worth being outraged over. Especially when the game in question wasn't even close. That's as concise as I'm capable of making my point at the moment.

I'm all for punishing the Pats (and have said so numerous times). What I find ridiculous are the calls for stripping Super Bowl titles, indefinite suspensions, asterisk, and all that nonsense. You're not saying, but plenty are. And that's what I'm addressing.

There's very little factual information there and a whole lot of bias. For example, "Suck for Luck" was literally rated worse than actual cheating like Spygate or Deflategate. Additionally, the Chargers' fake Stickum scandal, for which they were completely exonerated and didn't even have to pay a fine, was listed as cheating.

But yeah, I'm sure a website that consistently refers to Roger Goodell as "former Jets public relation intern," magically scores the Jets, Ravens, Steelers, Colts, and Broncos (the Patriots' biggest AFC rivals) as the biggest cheaters in the league, has a whole page devoted to how Spygate wasn't really that bad, and was put online as a response to another Patriots cheating scandal is totally unbiased and factual. :rolleyes:

You went on about intent. So what's the intent of the message? EVERYONE CHEATS. Which is true. Brad Johnson admitted to paying a ballboy to scuff up some balls just the way he liked them prior to Super Bowl XXXVII. Aaron Rodgers admitted that he adjusts the amount of air in the footballs he handles, and that sometimes the refs don't catch it. The Carolina Panthers heat their footballs up.

So are we going to strip the Panthers of their 2014 NFC South title (not that it's a particularly prestigious accomplishment)? Are we going to strip the Bucs of their Super Bowl XXXVII victory? What about that cheater Aaron Rodgers? When are we going to hold him accountable?

Everyone cheats dude. And manipulating footballs, sometimes in ways that make them "illegal," is a very, very common practice. We talked about this story when it first broke on a podcast I do. Still MIGHTY/Zach's a co-host of it. When I asked why no other team noticed this in the 15 years this was potentially going on one possibility he put forth was that because everyone does it no one wanted to be the guy to blow the whistle on the Pats doing it. Which makes it even more of a non-issue if true.

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No, the intent of that site's message is "My team got caught again, so I'm going to accuse everyone else - especially my team's biggest rivals - of cheating to make myself feel better!" Meanwhile, it's riddled with factual inaccuracies and relies on an extremely broad and intellectually-dishonest definition of cheating. In the end, it's just homerism at its worst and not to be taken seriously. The sad thing is, a sports cheating database is actually a really interesting idea if done right, but that site doesn't even try to do the topic justice.

The Aaron Rodgers comparison is false equivalence. By all accounts, he always keeps the game balls within the legal limits and never has them altered after inspection (which is the clear distinction that got Brady in trouble). Meanwhile, the Panthers were asked to stop heating the game balls and they stopped. They didn't sneak around continuing to do it in hiding. Again, false equivalence.

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No, the intent of that site's message is "My team got caught again, so I'm going to accuse everyone else - especially my team's biggest rivals - of cheating to make myself feel better!" Meanwhile, it's riddled with factual inaccuracies and relies on an extremely broad and intellectually-dishonest definition of cheating.

The Aaron Rodgers comparison is false equivalence. By all accounts, he always keeps the game balls within the legal limits and never has them altered after inspection (which is the clear distinction that got Brady in trouble). Meanwhile, the Panthers were asked to stop heating the game balls and they stopped. They didn't sneak around continuing to do it in hiding. Again, false equivalence.

You have proof Aaron Rodgers always keeps his within legal limits? That's not the story I heard. He mentioned that the refs sometimes don't even catch it. Odd thing to say if you're keeping things above board. Brad Johnson's admission is still standing too. As is the fact that the Panthers still attempted to alter their game balls. It's a wide spread tactic that every team, at some point, has engaged in.

I feel like we're spinning our wheels Lights. So let's get down to some new points of discussion. We both think the Pats need to be punished for this. So I'm wondering what you'd like to see done. You've been the most vocal about this. Your anti-Boston area sports team leanings are fairly well known. So what, in your mind, is the ideal punishment?

For fairness' sake I'll tell you mine. Losing a first and second round pick in 2016 and a first round pick in 2017. Suspend Kraft for a season. Suspend Brady for 8 games. Belichick doesn't get anything, as the report seems to indicate that he's clear. Or that there isn't enough evidence to tie him to any wrong doing, at the very least.

So how about you?

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