Deflategate -- Patriots Busted

[Brass]

Getting to keep the title you cheated to win seems like fair exchange to me

El. Oh. El.

[Morgan33]

Getting to keep the title you cheated to win seems like fair exchange to me

El. Oh. El.

Guess I'm missing something, I don't know anything about football

[ICTknight]

Oh well. Hoping some of it gets chopped off on appeal but if it doesn't I got a few trophies to lean on for a year. I don't like that we cheated but please stop acting like we are the only team in the NFL that does crap like this.

[dfwabel]

It's bogus. If they gonna give Brady 4 games cause he "probably knew" about the balls why not the center and others? It's just a witch hunt. There's no auctual proof he knew about the balls, this just sets a big precedent. This better get dropped in appeals it's such a joke.

Do you understand circumstantial evidence? This is exactly what circumstantial evidence is. The reason Brady is being punished and not the others is because he's in direct control of the balls the Patriots use when on offense. He's likely being suspended for 4 games not only because he cheated, but also because he was completely, arrogantly, non-compliant with the NFL in terms of giving them evidence.

How does the center NOT have control of the football before the snap?? He would know just as much as brady. That's my point. Not even a fine. It's obvious that this was to tarnish brady and not anybody else. It's baused of probable stuff not proof. If punishment in the court is baised off of proof why should any other business differentiate?

The center doesn't have a reason to request the balls be deflated. If the balls were deflated intentionally, which it sure seems like they were, it would be because that's how Brady wants/likes them.

With that said, a one game suspension would be excessive... four games? This is insane.

But the center can hide something in the gloves to deflate a new ball, I've heard storys about them doing that. thats my issue here.

Hide something in their gloves so that their heavily taped fingers can take it out, rotate the ball, insert the object, make line calls, and place the object back into the opposite glove before snapping?

OK. Even if done, how come no DL has been accidentily stabbed in the palm?

[HedleyLamarr]

We know Brady can appeal. Of course, he's going to have to prove why his suspension should be reduced.

I guess Kraft can appeal the fine and lost draft picks, but they don't have the backing of a union. But the team penalties are dealt out because of "repeat offender" status. Didn't the Patriots lose a first round pick before? Even if the team argues that it was two employees gone rogue, they were still employees of the team.

Now remember, these punishments are to serve two purposes: One is to punish those involved, and the other is to deter this from happening again.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

And losing a quarter season is a pretty big deterrent.

Josh Gordon appealed his dumb marijuana suspension and lost, right? I think there's precedence to keep the punishment. I also worry what's to come; the NFL isn't really all that great with doing the right thing, so I'm sure there's some absurd nonsense right behind this. Or maybe this was all one big ruse to get Simmons fired and then fired up. I'm not sure how petty Goodell really is.

[ninersdd]

I think the league changed their marijuana policy and Gordon's full season suspension was changed to 10 games.

[Rockstar Matt]

It's bogus. If they gonna give Brady 4 games cause he "probably knew" about the balls why not the center and others? It's just a witch hunt. There's no auctual proof he knew about the balls, this just sets a big precedent. This better get dropped in appeals it's such a joke.

Do you understand circumstantial evidence? This is exactly what circumstantial evidence is. The reason Brady is being punished and not the others is because he's in direct control of the balls the Patriots use when on offense. He's likely being suspended for 4 games not only because he cheated, but also because he was completely, arrogantly, non-compliant with the NFL in terms of giving them evidence.

How does the center NOT have control of the football before the snap?? He would know just as much as brady. That's my point. Not even a fine. It's obvious that this was to tarnish brady and not anybody else. It's baused of probable stuff not proof. If punishment in the court is baised off of proof why should any other business differentiate?

The center doesn't have a reason to request the balls be deflated. If the balls were deflated intentionally, which it sure seems like they were, it would be because that's how Brady wants/likes them.

With that said, a one game suspension would be excessive... four games? This is insane.

But the center can hide something in the gloves to deflate a new ball, I've heard storys about them doing that. thats my issue here.

LOL. That assertion is beyond ridiculous. It is more probable than not that the center doesn't pay any attention or even realize what the psi levels are in the footballs. Compared to the QB, the center has his hands on the football for a fraction of the time any QB does.

[IceCap]

i honestly don't see Brady getting suspended, or if he does he'll appeal and it will go by the letter of the rule which states that altering of the balls is a 25k fine and that is it. maybe they might do something like a 25k fine per ball or something but that is it.

Four game suspension for Tom Brady, per NFL, and Patriots lose 2016 first-rounder, 2017 fourth-rounder, $1M.

This is actually pretty close to what I suggested. That doesn't mean anything but still. +10 inner web points for me.

Getting to keep the title you cheated to win seems like fair exchange to me

El. Oh. El.

Guess I'm missing something, I don't know anything about football

The Pats didn't cheat to win the Super Bowl. They blew out the Colts in the game in question. The NFL ensured that the Super Bowl itself was contested under a watchful eye due to all the media coverage of the deflation allegations.

So while the Pats did cheat it didn't really win them a title. The team they cheated against never stood a chance and they beat the Seahawks on even terms.

[DaRadniz29]

I think this whole thing is being made into a bigger deal than it should be because Goodell can't figure out how to run the league. I'm not saying I could run the league, but there must be someone better.

I think there's also a vague interpretation within the league and in other sports on what constitutes cheating, with some rules being open to interpretation.

My main concern with the punishments handed down is that the HC got absolutely nothing. Sure losing draft picks will hurt him, but it's really not a punishment to the Coach.

I have a hard time believing that if they said Brady knew about it that Belichick didn't know anything. Sure it's not impossible, but I find it curious that the league went pretty much out of their way to specifically say Belichick exonerated of any wrongdoing. Not to mention, I thought the HC is responsible for your players actions (within the football context). Apparently he's not. It's kind of like in MLB if a (Starting?)Pitcher is ejected - the manager is automatically ejected with him.

What I gather from all of this - what Goodell says is irrelevant to the actions he takes.

[WSU151]

It's bogus. If they gonna give Brady 4 games cause he "probably knew" about the balls why not the center and others? It's just a witch hunt. There's no auctual proof he knew about the balls, this just sets a big precedent. This better get dropped in appeals it's such a joke.

Do you understand circumstantial evidence? This is exactly what circumstantial evidence is. The reason Brady is being punished and not the others is because he's in direct control of the balls the Patriots use when on offense. He's likely being suspended for 4 games not only because he cheated, but also because he was completely, arrogantly, non-compliant with the NFL in terms of giving them evidence.

How does the center NOT have control of the football before the snap?? He would know just as much as brady. That's my point. Not even a fine. It's obvious that this was to tarnish brady and not anybody else. It's baused of probable stuff not proof. If punishment in the court is baised off of proof why should any other business differentiate?

The center doesn't have a reason to request the balls be deflated. If the balls were deflated intentionally, which it sure seems like they were, it would be because that's how Brady wants/likes them.

With that said, a one game suspension would be excessive... four games? This is insane.

But the center can hide something in the gloves to deflate a new ball, I've heard storys about them doing that. thats my issue here.

LOL. That assertion is beyond ridiculous. It is more probable than not that the center doesn't pay any attention or even realize what the psi levels are in the footballs. Compared to the QB, the center has his hands on the football for a fraction of the time any QB does.

That's probably not true. QB can audible for 20 seconds while the center has his hand on the ball. QB has his hand on the ball, what, 3 or 4 seconds? That's really nothing compared to pre-play checks.

[WSU151]

I think this whole thing is being made into a bigger deal than it should be because Goodell can't figure out how to run the league. I'm not saying I could run the league, but there must be someone better.

My main concern with the punishments handed down is that the HC got absolutely nothing. Sure losing draft picks will hurt him, but it's really not a punishment to the Coach.

I have a hard time believing that if they said Brady knew about it that Belichick didn't know anything. Sure it's not impossible, but I find it curious that the league went pretty much out of their way to specifically say Belichick exonerated of any wrongdoing. Not to mention, I thought the HC is responsible for your players actions (within the football context). Apparently he's not. It's kind of like in MLB if a (Starting?)Pitcher is ejected - the manager is automatically ejected with him.

What I gather from all of this - what Goodell says is irrelevant to the actions he takes.

Why would Brady ever let Belichick know the balls were deflated after the approvals? Deflation of footballs isn't something your brag about in the uber-masculine world of the NFL.

I think it's pretty certain that Belichick was not aware, or if he ever was told, he didn't care enough to remember. Why is it curious that the league went out of its way to protect the coach?

[tBBP]

It's bogus. If they gonna give Brady 4 games cause he "probably knew" about the balls why not the center and others? It's just a witch hunt. There's no auctual proof he knew about the balls, this just sets a big precedent. This better get dropped in appeals it's such a joke.

Do you understand circumstantial evidence? This is exactly what circumstantial evidence is. The reason Brady is being punished and not the others is because he's in direct control of the balls the Patriots use when on offense. He's likely being suspended for 4 games not only because he cheated, but also because he was *snipped* [uncooperative] with the NFL in terms of giving them [his phone records}.

Leave everything else out of the equation for a second, and key on that one part right there--that's the one piece many seem to be missing.

If ol' boy was innocent of any wrongdoing (or in this case "wrongknowing"), he would not have had a single issue giving the league officials his phone records and whatnot upon request--after all, he wouldn't have had nothing to hide. But he didn't do that; by many reports he refused to give up the info--from which one could infer he had something to hide, or in this case lose.

*some pieces edited for clarity

[Morgan33]

i honestly don't see Brady getting suspended, or if he does he'll appeal and it will go by the letter of the rule which states that altering of the balls is a 25k fine and that is it. maybe they might do something like a 25k fine per ball or something but that is it.

Four game suspension for Tom Brady, per NFL, and Patriots lose 2016 first-rounder, 2017 fourth-rounder, $1M.

This is actually pretty close to what I suggested. That doesn't mean anything but still. +10 inner web points for me.

Getting to keep the title you cheated to win seems like fair exchange to me

El. Oh. El.

Guess I'm missing something, I don't know anything about football

The Pats didn't cheat to win the Super Bowl. They blew out the Colts in the game in question. The NFL ensured that the Super Bowl itself was contested under a watchful eye due to all the media coverage of the deflation allegations.

So while the Pats did cheat it didn't really win them a title. The team they cheated against never stood a chance and they beat the Seahawks on even terms.

Right on, thanks for clearing that up Cap!

[WSU151]

It's bogus. If they gonna give Brady 4 games cause he "probably knew" about the balls why not the center and others? It's just a witch hunt. There's no auctual proof he knew about the balls, this just sets a big precedent. This better get dropped in appeals it's such a joke.

Do you understand circumstantial evidence? This is exactly what circumstantial evidence is. The reason Brady is being punished and not the others is because he's in direct control of the balls the Patriots use when on offense. He's likely being suspended for 4 games not only because he cheated, but also because he was *snipped* [uncooperative] with the NFL in terms of giving them [his phone records}.

Leave everything else out of the equation for a second, and key on that one part right there--that's the one piece many seem to be missing.

If ol' boy was innocent of any wrongdoing (or in this case "wrongknowing"), he would not have had a single issue giving the league officials his phone records and whatnot upon request--after all, he wouldn't have had nothing to hide. But he didn't do that; by many reports he refused to give up the info--from which one could infer he had something to hide, or in this case lose.

*some pieces edited for clarity

Given the pre-Super Bowl media leaks, Brady had a legitimate concern that something personal from his phone might be leaked out. If I was Brady's counsel, even if he had nothing to hide, I would tell him not to give up the phone. A lot of outside risk. An NFL "investigator" doesn't have the same rights as law enforcement.

[Gothamite]

The Pats didn't cheat to win the Super Bowl. They blew out the Colts in the game in question. The NFL ensured that the Super Bowl itself was contested under a watchful eye due to all the media coverage of the deflation allegations.

So while the Pats did cheat it didn't really win them a title. The team they cheated against never stood a chance and they beat the Seahawks on even terms.

We don't actually know that.

We do know that they cheated to get to the position to be in the Super Bowl. Every step of the way, the actions in individual games lead to the next one. Playoff seeding was determined by the outcome of regular-season games. You can't pretend that those ill-gotten wins didn't have small ripples that echoed into the post-season. And in a game between superior teams, little things like that could make the difference.

As for the Super Bowl itself, given that they've come up with creative ways to cheat, who knows what we'll someday learn went on in this game? At some point, the Patriots have lost the presumption of innocence.

[IceCap]

The Pats didn't cheat to win the Super Bowl. They blew out the Colts in the game in question. The NFL ensured that the Super Bowl itself was contested under a watchful eye due to all the media coverage of the deflation allegations.

So while the Pats did cheat it didn't really win them a title. The team they cheated against never stood a chance and they beat the Seahawks on even terms.

We don't actually know that.

We do know that they cheated to get to the position to be in the Super Bowl.

Yes. And no. The lighter then regulation footballs probably weren't the deciding factor in the AFC Championship game. The Pats were the better team. There's no question about it. They did cheat in the game, but the cheating didn't win them the game. Which is worse, from a certain point of view.

Every step of the way, the actions in individual games lead to the next one. Playoff seeding was determined by the outcome of regular-season games. You can't pretend that those ill-gotten wins didn't have small ripples that echoed into the post-season. And in a game between superior teams, little things like that could make the difference.

So they played seventeen games prior to the AFC Championship game. Sixteen regular season games and one playoff game versus Baltimore. Not once over the course of that schedule did anyone come out and say "hey, we think the Pats are tampering with the footballs." The only thing the Ravens were complaining about after their playoff game was the fact that they were simply out-coached. It was only after the Colts accused the Pats that the Ravens jumped on the bandwagon. And considering the fact that they had spent the previous week complaining about losing a game they should have won? And their own sketchy history with the truth? I'm not inclined to put much stock in anything they were claiming.

So I look at all of that and I can say that I do not believe the "cheating" was as extensive through the previous seventeen games as you're implying, if was even existent at all.

As for the Super Bowl itself, given that they've come up with creative ways to cheat, who knows what we'll someday learn went on in this game? At some point, the Patriots have lost the presumption of innocence.

Now that's a silly argument Goth. "I don't know how they may have cheated. I have no proof that they even did, but hey. They may have, so let's just say they did!"

That's not flying with me either.

[WSU151]

The Pats didn't cheat to win the Super Bowl. They blew out the Colts in the game in question. The NFL ensured that the Super Bowl itself was contested under a watchful eye due to all the media coverage of the deflation allegations.

So while the Pats did cheat it didn't really win them a title. The team they cheated against never stood a chance and they beat the Seahawks on even terms.

We don't actually know that.

We do know that they cheated to get to the position to be in the Super Bowl. Every step of the way, the actions in individual games lead to the next one. Playoff seeding was determined by the outcome of regular-season games. You can't pretend that those ill-gotten wins didn't have small ripples that echoed into the post-season. And in a game between superior teams, little things like that could make the difference.

As for the Super Bowl itself, given that they've come up with creative ways to cheat, who knows what we'll someday learn went on in this game? At some point, the Patriots have lost the presumption of innocence.

Probably the most speculative post I've ever read. Maybe we'll learn about how the Colts and Seahawks and every other team cheated too.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

[rams80]

Also, when the Patriots appeal. What would happen if they go all the way to the Court of Arbitration for Sport?

NFL reaction is as follows:

[rams80]

It's bogus. If they gonna give Brady 4 games cause he "probably knew" about the balls why not the center and others? It's just a witch hunt. There's no auctual proof he knew about the balls, this just sets a big precedent. This better get dropped in appeals it's such a joke.

Do you understand circumstantial evidence? This is exactly what circumstantial evidence is. The reason Brady is being punished and not the others is because he's in direct control of the balls the Patriots use when on offense. He's likely being suspended for 4 games not only because he cheated, but also because he was *snipped* [uncooperative] with the NFL in terms of giving them [his phone records}.

Leave everything else out of the equation for a second, and key on that one part right there--that's the one piece many seem to be missing.

If ol' boy was innocent of any wrongdoing (or in this case "wrongknowing"), he would not have had a single issue giving the league officials his phone records and whatnot upon request--after all, he wouldn't have had nothing to hide. But he didn't do that; by many reports he refused to give up the info--from which one could infer he had something to hide, or in this case lose.

*some pieces edited for clarity

Given the pre-Super Bowl media leaks, Brady had a legitimate concern that something personal from his phone might be leaked out. If I was Brady's counsel, even if he had nothing to hide, I would tell him not to give up the phone. A lot of outside risk. An NFL "investigator" doesn't have the same rights as law enforcement.

What, has he been cheating on Giselle?

-----------------------------------------------------

You know, if the NFL really wanted to punish the Pats, they'd take away the 2nd round pick. That's typically the round where Belichick cleans up.