NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[Corvus]

So...what exactly is the point of this and the other anti-sports season threads? Are we supposed to be putting links to news that disparages the NHL or what?

Less obtuse thread titles would probably help make it clear too.

[The_Admiral]

I fundamentally disagree with that about as fundamentally as I can disagree with anything. Thread titles should either be ridiculously specific or maddeningly unspecific. That way, who knows how they'll grow? Plus, I like the dialectic of Thread and Anti-Thread. My hope is that we arrive at NFL Syn-Thread by Christmas.

[Cosmic]

I fundamentally disagree with that about as fundamentally as I can disagree with anything. Thread titles should either be ridiculously specific or maddeningly unspecific. That way, who knows how they'll grow? Plus, I like the dialectic of Thread and Anti-Thread. My hope is that we arrive at NFL Syn-Thread by Christmas.

The mods don't share your enthusiasm. I made a thread when Tom Magliozzi from Car Talk died and I accidentally double posted, so I made one "Car Talk's Tom Magliozzi is Dead" and one "Car Talk's Tom Magliozzi is Dead Anti-Thread". Somebody didn't get the joke; that got them both nuked.

[The_Admiral]

I agree that the mods don't share my sensibilities, but I also agree with nuking all Car Talk-related content, so I'm at a bit of a crossroads here.

[mamiller99]

Following Bettman's logic, the next expansion shall be... (drum rolls)

Ciudad Juárez

TAKE THAT KHL!

[Tigers6884]

Following Bettman's logic, the next expansion shall be... (drum rolls)

San Juan, Puerto Rico

TAKE THAT MLB!

Ftfy

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

Following Bettman's logic, the next expansion shall be... (drum rolls)

San Juan, Puerto Rico

TAKE THAT MLB!

Ftfy

Right...the KHL would put a team in Havana.

[Brian in Boston]

Two things:

1) Canes wore white at home vs Nashville

2) "9,161 people" saw them:

The franchise hasn't seen "crowds" like this since my uncle, cousins, father and I were contributing to the Hartford Whalers' average home attendance of 10,144 fans-per-game during the 1992-93 NHL season.

[Still MIGHTY]

What if the NHL flips the script on us a la Atlanta/Phoenix, and Carolina moves instead of Florida?

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

Carolina actually has fans though, Extremely fair weather, but they're there.

[Sport]

Florida is averaging 8,981

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

[The_Admiral]

The franchise hasn't seen "crowds" like this since my uncle, cousins, father and I were contributing to the Hartford Whalers' average home attendance of 10,144 fans-per-game during the 1992-93 NHL season.

No, they've been seeing crowds like this over at least the last three years that I've been dropping in on games around the NHL. Not every single night, mind you, but they've been just as capable of bomb threats as the Coyotes, Panthers, and pre-sale Stars. No one talks about how freaking empty Stars games were through 2013. It's been Victory Green-washed, apparently.

[Brian in Boston]

It's been Victory Green-washed, apparently.

Similarly, there are those who would apparently like to see Hartford's failure as a major-pro sports market "Whale-tailed" out of existence.

Sadly, for those of us who actually supported the Whalers by consistently purchasing tickets to their games and attending said contests, a well-designed logo doesn't - in and of itself - guarantee the viability of a National Hockey League franchise. Unfortunately, the sales of caps and t-shirts and sweatshirts and jerseys and other tchotchkes bearing the iconic Hartford Whalers logo simply didn't translate into nearly enough fannies in the seats on a regular basis. If they had, the Whalers would never have put up a seasonal average attendance of 11,983... or 11,835... or 11,703... or 11,506... or 10,896... or 10,586... or 10,407... or the aforementioned 10,144.

Say what you will about the Carolina Hurricanes, they haven't hit those depths for a full-season attendance average yet. While they may still manage to do so, the Hurricanes -to date - have averaged 15,180 fans-per-game over 14-and-1/4 seasons in Raleigh. By comparison, the Whalers averaged 12,269 fans-per-game over 16 full NHL seasons in Hartford.

If the Hurricanes' support in Raleigh isn't adequate to warrant the franchise's continued operation in said market, than the Whalers' track-record of support - or, lack thereof - in Hartford is just as damning. I'm not saying that a Raleigh-based franchise can be a viable long-term success story in the NHL, but if it isn't, a return to Hartford isn't the answer. The league would ultimately be replacing one marginal, problematic market with another.

And I say all of this having been a die-hard New England and Hartford Whalers supporter.

[The_Admiral]

You keep citing those phony attendance numbers for the Hurricanes. They've been reporting tickets distributed just like the rest of the league has been for years. I'm willing to believe the 10,000 people a night in Hartford were actually 10,000 people a night. The Hurricanes' 15,000, much less. Sometimes much, much, much less.

That Raleigh and Hartford are both marginal markets is clear. Anywhere this franchise would go, whether it's Hartford, Raleigh, Milwaukee, Las Vegas, Seattle, or up my mom's ass, would be a low-end market, because that's all that's left: medium-sized but overextended cities, boutique markets that can go all in on the NHL but still not compete with the big boys, and then stupid mistakes like Raleigh. The team only wound up there because Karmanos and Rutherford weren't allowed to move the team to Auburn Hills nor a converted aircraft hangar in Columbus. I don't think either market is ever capable of being above mean or median revenue (that's about where Quebec City, at best, could do), but the ceiling for a reinvigorated Hartford/Southern New England still seems higher than the one for Raleigh.

Hartford can't work now because the arena is a dump. No wonder the attendance was bad; it looks like a lousy place to see a game. But if they had a modern arena that seated around 16 and a half for hockey, that, combined with a great TV deal (all of New England minus Fairfield) and the don't-know-what-you-got-till-it's-gone mentality could make Hartford at the NHL level a winning proposition. And, of course, non-Karmanos ownership, because as far as hockey operations goes, he's one of the most incompetent owners in the league. Just a bunch of flimsy Europeans and crappy dudes from Michigan who are loved for being from Michigan.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

You keep citing those phony attendance numbers for the Hurricanes. They've been reporting tickets distributed just like the rest of the league has been for years. I'm willing to believe the 10,000 people a night in Hartford were actually 10,000 people a night. The Hurricanes' 15,000, much less. Sometimes much, much, much less.

That Raleigh and Hartford are both marginal markets is clear. Anywhere this franchise would go, whether it's Hartford, Raleigh, Milwaukee, Las Vegas, Seattle, or up my mom's ass, would be a low-end market, because that's all that's left: medium-sized but overextended cities, boutique markets that can go all in on the NHL but still not compete with the big boys, and then stupid mistakes like Raleigh. The team only wound up there because Karmanos and Rutherford weren't allowed to move the team to Auburn Hills nor a converted aircraft hangar in Columbus. I don't think either market is ever capable of being above mean or median revenue (that's about where Quebec City, at best, could do), but the ceiling for a reinvigorated Hartford/Southern New England still seems higher than the one for Raleigh.

Hartford can't work now because the arena is a dump. No wonder the attendance was bad; it looks like a lousy place to see a game. But if they had a modern arena that seated around 16 and a half for hockey, that, combined with a great TV deal (all of New England minus Fairfield) and the don't-know-what-you-got-till-it's-gone mentality could make Hartford at the NHL level a winning proposition. And, of course, non-Karmanos ownership, because as far as hockey operations goes, he's one of the most incompetent owners in the league. Just a bunch of flimsy Europeans and crappy dudes from Michigan who are loved for being from Michigan.

They tried to move them to Auburn Hills?

[The_Admiral]

That's what I've read here and there over the years. Karmanos is a Detroit guy (yeah, you'd never guess from his all-red uniforms and insistence on bringing back Tim Gleason and Chad LaRose) and also has some sort of blood feud with Mike Ilitch. He had the old Compuware junior team playing out of the Palace at one point, and I think he said he wanted to move the team to southeastern Michigan early on in his tenure but then Bettman peckerslapped him out of it before it could gain any public traction. From there, you had the thing where the Whalers had to sell x amount of season tickets or the team would move, the Whalers sold the tickets, then he said he'd move the team anyway, but hadn't decided on where. The guy is just a total crapdick, the kind you get when you're the #4 league.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

Yeah I know he's a Detroiter- I used to love the Jr. Red Wings/Whalers. Never really read into the guy but heard some shady stuff about the Hartford move. Never heard about the Auburn Hills thing, but it probably would've been more successful than Carolina. TONS of money in Oakland County. Plus the Palace is a great hockey venue. Used to go to Vipers games at least 10 times a year.

[Brian in Boston]

You keep citing those phony attendance numbers for the Hurricanes. They've been reporting tickets distributed just like the rest of the league has been for years.

Which is why I cite them. Until such time as a completely independent agency is established and empowered to accurately measure sports attendance numbers, we're left to accept that the numbers provided by the teams themselves are - ahem - on the level.

I'm willing to believe the 10,000 people a night in Hartford were actually 10,000 people a night.

You're free to do so, but you'd be wrong.

I was there, in attendance, at countless Whalers games over the course of the team's existence in both the WHA and NHL. My family members were season ticket-holders. As a result, as much as it pains me as a diehard New England and Hartford Whalers fan to do so, I can assure you that the franchise was just as guilty of fudging its attendance numbers as any professional sports franchise ever has been. That's right... as poor as the attendance figures I cited for the Whalers happen to be, I can say - with absolute certainty - that there were games when the team had to lie about its attendance in order to achieve those dubious marks. In fact, my uncle was an executive with Aetna and his time with the company included the era in which the firm was a part of the Whalers' ownership consortium. The stories he could tell you about papering the house with comp tickets to Aetna employees would make your head spin.

Yeah... the Hartford Whalers were the one franchise in the history of the National Hockey League that released scrupulously accurate attendance records.

That Raleigh and Hartford are both marginal markets is clear... but the ceiling for a reinvigorated Hartford/Southern New England still seems higher than the one for Raleigh.

Now Whalers 2.0 is going to represent Southern New England as well as Hartford? The team would be hard-pressed to capture the entirety of the Connecticut marketplace, let alone successfully garner anything approaching appreciable fan support from other areas of Southern New England. Hartford Whalers 2.0 wouldn't be any more successful at drawing significant support from Rhode Island and Eastern Massachusetts than the original Connecticut-based Whalers were. The team might - MIGHT - make some inroads into Southwestern Worcester County, but I wouldn't bet the house on it. The team would draw a relatively decent following from Hampden and Hampshire Counties in Massachusetts, with less from Franklin and Berkshire Counties. Whalers 2.0 could claim a portion of Southern New England, but it would be a limited portion.

Hartford can't work now because the arena is a dump.

One of several problems the marketplace faces.

But if they had a modern arena that seated around 16 and a half for hockey, that, combined with a great TV deal (all of New England minus Fairfield) and the don't-know-what-you-got-till-it's-gone mentality could make Hartford at the NHL level a winning proposition.

Oh, is that all?

First, where's the financing for the new arena coming from? Citing a budget deficit, Connecticut Governor Dannel Malloy recently announced that he was imposing a state hiring freeze of full-time, part-time and temporary positions, as well as across-the-board emergency spending cuts.

Second, the "reinvigorated" NHL franchise is going to land a "great TV deal" that not only draws viewership from "Hartford/Southern New England", but from "all of New England"? Whalers 2.0 has about as good a chance of making significant inroads with viewers from Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont as the franchise does of significantly expanding its fanbase into Rhode Island, Eastern Massachusetts, the majority of Worcester County, and the far reaches of Western Masachusetts.

Wisely, you exclude Fairfield County from the franchise's target market, as Southwestern Connecticut falls squarely under New York City's considrable sphere-of-influence... pro sports most definitely included. That said, a Hartford-based NHL franchise is also going to have its hands full successfully marketing itself to Western New Haven County (NYC sphere-of-influence), Southwestern Litchfield County (NYC), Windham County (Boston), and Eastern New London County (Boston).

And, of course, non-Karmanos ownership, because as far as hockey operations goes, he's one of the most incompetent owners in the league. Just a bunch of flimsy Europeans and crappy dudes from Michigan who are loved for being from Michigan.

You'll get no argument from me that Peter Karmanos is seriously wanting in the ownership department. That said, as you've pointed out on more than one occasion, it isn't as if the NHL is turning away quality ownership candidates. As a result, there's simply no guarantee that the owners of Whalers 2.0 will cover themselves in glory.

Look, I'd love to see the Hartford Whalers once again take to the ice in the NHL. However, the sad truth is that Hartford was exceedingly fortunate to land a major pro sports team in the first place and proved, quite emphatically, that it is - at best - a marginal market that would always struggle to maintain solvency.

[The_Admiral]

They'd have moved to Auburn Hills at the height of Hockeytown. Even with Oakland County money, there can't be enough to go around for five teams, and Ilitch probably would have made sure PASS-->Fox froze him out of any good cable money. I don't think that would have worked at all. Would have made the Clippers look good.

Citing sources like a pro:

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/04/17/sports/1996-nhl-playoffs-hartford-to-detroit.html

By JOE LAPOINTE

Published: April 17, 1996

If the Hartford Whalers don't sell 11,000 season tickets by May 1, they may move. One location under consideration is a northern suburb of Detroit, which already has the Red Wings in a downtown arena.

The Whalers' owner, Peter Karmanos, has talked with the operators of the Palace of Auburn Hills about sharing the home of the Detroit Pistons.

Karmanos, a native of Detroit who operates a junior team there, acknowledges that the National Hockey League probably would object to this. But he said that suburban Detroit would be "exceptional from a business point of view," and that it is one of several sites he is considering. Others, he said, include Atlanta, Nashville and Las Vegas, Nev.

"If nothing else works and I can get the right deal at the Palace, I have to go to my partners and say 'Guys, I have the best building in the country and the finest hockey market in the country,' " Karmanos said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/02/sports/on-hockey-bitter-rivalry-between-owners-reaches-finals.html

After buying the Hartford Whalers in 1994 and deciding to move them shortly thereafter, Peter Karmanos Jr. thought he had found a good spot: suburban Detroit. The site was the Palace of Auburn Hills, the spiffy and modern home of the Detroit Pistons, who said he was welcome to share their basketball arena. Karmanos knew the market, too. He grew up in the Motor City, still lives in the area and cheered in his youth for the Detroit Red Wings.

There was one major problem: the Red Wings did not want competition in what they call Hockeytown, and the N.H.L. did not like the idea either. Plus, there were also personal considerations. Karmanos was then and remains now a bitter rival of Mike Ilitch, the owner of the Red Wings.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2002-06-05/sports/0206050019_1_red-wings-karmanos-mike-ilitch

In 1994, the rivalry reached the NHL when Karmanos, a longtime Red Wings season-ticket holder, bought the Hartford Whalers.

Not long after, Ilitch booted Karmanos' junior team out of Joe Louis Arena. Karmanos eventually moved the Whalers to North Carolina, but he originally toyed with the idea of moving the team to nearby Auburn Hills, Mich.

Ilitch, who won't comment on the relationship, obviously helped to nix that.

Karmanos then tried some payback in 1998, signing restricted free agent Sergei Fedorov to a $38 million offer sheet. The offer was orchestrated so Detroit maybe wouldn't match it, by calling $2.4 million a season a base salary, with a $14 million signing bonus and $12 million if the team made the conference finals.

The Red Wings matched the offer, won the Stanley Cup and owed Fedorov $26 million.

Karmanos now says, "We shouldn't have done it. We helped screw up the economics of the league, and I regret that. If I could take it back, I would."

Yeah, well, you can't, so screw off, skullet.

So yeah, Auburn Hills was so not happening for Karmanos, and credit to Count for putting that fire out before Ilitch had him whacked. On second thought...

[The_Admiral]

Now Whalers 2.0 is going to represent Southern New England as well as Hartford?

I've said before that the Springfield-Hartford-New Haven corridor gives you a population roughly equivalent to that of Raleigh-Durham. Yes, you'll share that with Boston and New York, but Raleigh is sharing their population with Buffalo transplants, Pittsburgh transplants, and Doesn't Give A Jack About Hockey In The First Place. I think a new Whalers team could siphon off some of those fans, especially on the Rangers side.

I'm also presuming that they'd get CSN New England (the Whalers' old SportsChannel New England) on board and share the entirety of New England-minus-Fairfield (which I know doesn't get CSNNE and NESN) with the Bruins: Whalers can show games in Boston, Bruins can show games in Hartford -- same reciprocity as the two Alberta teams, and I'd expect the same for the Canadiens and Nordiques if that ever comes together.

Hockey has seen a lot of grassroots development in Connecticut since the Whalers left and the brand seems to become more beloved every year, especially with Winnipeg getting the Jets back. You make me out to be out alone on some lunatic fringe, but I know there are people in New England who are far more passionate and informed about this than I am. I'm just some guy throwing some possibilities out in the face of the miserable business failure the Whalers organization has become in the New South suburban hell they're in now.