NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[The_Admiral]

Anyway, I guess the premise here is that they shouldn't have to stipulate that they're a women's league because the NHL doesn't stipulate that it's a men's league. This is shopworn blue-check Twitter journo talk, which is appropriate, because whatever this league is called this week, those people are its core audience.  A noble principle, to be sure, but not one suited for reality -- lots of businesses do things they shouldn't have to do but for the sake of marketing. To this point, the marketing for the then-NWHL has been based around a moral imperative to consume their product: you watch their games because it's your duty to support these wonderful women. Now, as the PHF, apparently the idea is that it is a legitimate, top-level professional hockey league to which the all-women composition is strictly incidental. Oh, this old thing? Who do they think they're fooling? No one, because no one believes it's an elite league that by sheer happenstance comprises women; people just have to say that to keep up appearances. After all, the whole thing with this league is that you don't follow it, you talk about following it and talk about talking about following it. It's all extremely meta. 

 

I think the truth is that the way to market this league has always been somewhere in the middle: ideally, you go out to a game because it's good-not-great live hockey at an affordable price, which is always a good thing -- you don't go just to show you support women, but it's not a bad idea if you do. However, folks, it's women's hockey. It is what it is. You can't sell the NHL as the NBA and you can't sell the NWHL as the PHF.

[monkeypower]

51 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Anyway, I guess the premise here is that they shouldn't have to stipulate that they're a women's league because the NHL doesn't stipulate that it's a men's league. This is shopworn blue-check Twitter journo talk, which is appropriate, because whatever this league is called this week, those people are its core audience.  A noble principle, to be sure, but not one suited for reality -- lots of businesses do things they shouldn't have to do but for the sake of marketing. To this point, the marketing for the then-NWHL has been based around a moral imperative to consume their product: you watch their games because it's your duty to support these wonderful women. Now, as the PHF, apparently the idea is that it is a legitimate, top-level professional hockey league to which the all-women composition is strictly incidental. Oh, this old thing? Who do they think they're fooling? No one, because no one believes it's an elite league that by sheer happenstance comprises women; people just have to say that to keep up appearances. After all, the whole thing with this league is that you don't follow it, you talk about following it and talk about talking about following it. It's all extremely meta. 

 

I think the truth is that the way to market this league has always been somewhere in the middle: ideally, you go out to a game because it's good-not-great live hockey at an affordable price, which is always a good thing -- you don't go just to show you support women, but it's not a bad idea if you do. However, folks, it's women's hockey. It is what it is. You can't sell the NHL as the NBA and you can't sell the NWHL as the PHF.

 

That was kind of my thinking when this change was announced.

 

The whole draw/appeal/selling point of the league was that it was the professional hockey league for women. Changing from the National Women's Hockey League to the dumb name (regardless of this situation dumb name) of Premier Hockey Federation removes the whole reason people cared about this league. As much as people on the internet who supported the league may have tried to play it otherwise, it's the "novelty" (not in a bad way) of the league being women that made people watch it. I don't think anyone was watching it to see the highest level of hockey competition, they were watching it to see the highest level of women's hockey and to see a league that gives women hockey players of all ages something concrete(-ish) at the professional level to aim for and be paid to play, instead of finishing university and then drifting between international tournaments. The level of hockey is just not good enough* for it to be the main draw.

 

I don't think the whole internet meta thing surrounding the league helps the league because while those people are the biggest fans who you do want surrounding and promoting your league on the internet, it becomes a insular feedback loop  and where outsiders have to be accepted by those internet fans or else you aren't allowed in. From an outsiders perspective who doesn't pay attention who just sees things about it on the internet (which I think gives me authority to speak on it as someone who would be a potential fan) the league appears to be one of its biggest enemies because it is so insular. I don't think they play well with others, as especially seen with the CWHL/PWHA situation (and regardless of how you feel about Barstool, I also think the league completely mishandled that whole debacle).

 

*

Spoiler

The Canadian Olympic team used to play exhibition games (and may have technically been in the league at one point) against teams from the Alberta U18 AAA boys league and would routinely lose. I have a friend who played in that league and played against them when Wickenheiser was still on the team and he was telling us about how he and others would chirping, just routine hockey chirps, her and the team. It's just a funny visual to think about the greatest women's hockey player of all time getting beaked at by a bunch of teenage boys as said boys are beating her and the Olympians.

 

[The_Admiral]

1 hour ago, monkeypower said:

I don't think they play well with others, as especially seen with the CWHL/PWHA situation (and regardless of how you feel about Barstool, I also think the league completely mishandled that whole debacle).

 

Yes and no. It certainly didn't help to push Barstool away and make an enemy of them, but at the same time, what have we condemned the NHL for over the past 30 years? Abandoning the core fanbase to chase casual fans. Who is women's hockey's core fanbase? As far as I can tell, it's SBNation bloggers who do a xerox of a xerox of Something Awful posting and then get mad at you if you argue with them because they have a rare genetic disease that makes their blood hurt. They hate Barstool with their lives. If the league were to take up with Barstool, they would make enemies for life of the Julie DiCaro Extended Universe and get called "cool girls" until the end of time. Then Barstool, after showing initial interest, would lose that interest and replace their NWHL coverage with, I dunno, Dave Portnoy Rates TikTok Boobs or something, leaving the league with nothing. They've decided that their strategy is to ingratiate themselves with members of the media and rely on them to browbeat everyone else into doing the right thing. Experts call this the "Finish 3rd in Your Home State of Massachusetts" approach. They kinda have to see it out. Maybe this time it'll work.

[monkeypower]

1 hour ago, the admiral said:

 

Yes and no. It certainly didn't help to push Barstool away and make an enemy of them, but at the same time, what have we condemned the NHL for over the past 30 years? Abandoning the core fanbase to chase casual fans. Who is women's hockey's core fanbase? As far as I can tell, it's SBNation bloggers who do a xerox of a xerox of Something Awful posting and then get mad at you if you argue with them because they have a rare genetic disease that makes their blood hurt. They hate Barstool with their lives. If the league were to take up with Barstool, they would make enemies for life of the Julie DiCaro Extended Universe and get called "cool girls" until the end of time. Then Barstool, after showing initial interest, would lose that interest and replace their NWHL coverage with, I dunno, Dave Portnoy Rates TikTok Boobs or something, leaving the league with nothing. They've decided that their strategy is to ingratiate themselves with members of the media and rely on them to browbeat everyone else into doing the right thing. Experts call this the "Finish 3rd in Your Home State of Massachusetts" approach. They kinda have to see it out. Maybe this time it'll work.

 

Oh, I'm not saying they should have shacked up with Barstool. I'm saying how they handled it was the issue with having no problem with Nardini and Barstool promoting the players and league (and if you want to take Nardini at her word, had her in for conversations in regards to league goings-on and potential ownership) until that core league fanbase and some players had an issue with it that one day (though Nardini did kind of bring it on herself with her dumb shtick). Then the immediate follow up had the league pretty much disown Barstool and promote a blue check writer in Barstool's stead who had just written an article trashing Barstool's connection to the league that included a provably false major lie about Barstool dealings with one of the league's players.

 

Sometime after, Nardini made a Facebook post, I believe it was because all I saw was like a screen shot of a screen shot, saying that she understands that not everyone is willing, or able, to get into bed with Barstool, but that she was disappointed that the league would actively get her and Barstool involved until people had an issue with it and then actively and publically cut Barstool off. In that same post, she said that men's teams, outside organizations and, I think, sponsors had reached out to her post-fallout saying they had also been interested in getting involved with the league but decided against it once they had discussions with the league and didn't like what they saw and heard back.

 

I don't think standing with Barstool is the hill that the PHF needed to or should have die/died on, but I think the whole situation  was a microcosm of the PHF's issues with exposure (they also immediately followed it up with the failed bubble which also didn't help).

 

1 hour ago, the admiral said:

Who is women's hockey's core fanbase? As far as I can tell, it's SBNation bloggers who do a xerox of a xerox of Something Awful posting and then get mad at you if you argue with them because they have a rare genetic disease that makes their blood hurt. They hate Barstool with their lives. If the league were to take up with Barstool, they would make enemies for life of the Julie DiCaro Extended Universe and get called "cool girls" until the end of time.

[snip]

They've decided that their strategy is to ingratiate themselves with members of the media and rely on them to browbeat everyone else into doing the right thing. Experts call this the "Finish 3rd in Your Home State of Massachusetts" approach. They kinda have to see it out. Maybe this time it'll work.

 

Oddly enough, the person who wrote the anti-Barstool article that I mentioned above, and then was specifically promoted by the then-NWHL immediately after, was hired by the Seattle Times to be the Kraken writer. I believe she had been doing some writing for Sportsnet before.

[The_Admiral]

I missed this failed bubble story so I had to look it up: https://www.si.com/hockey/news/after-nwhls-bubble-bursts-where-does-the-league-go-from-here

 

Quote

 

We do know this. The 2020-21 NWHL season and playoffs in Lake Placid was an enormous opportunity for this league to make strides and capture the hearts and minds of casual sports fans. And it failed. Miserably. The two semifinals Thursday night and the final Friday night were to be televised nationally on the NBC Sports Network, which would have given the league a level of exposure never seen before. But in the space of 11 days, the league waffled on its ties to a misogynistic website, then had to send a team home (the Metropolitan Riveters) because of a COVID outbreak, then saw another team (the Connecticut Whale) leave because of fears of COVID, then had to shut the entire season down because of a further outbreak.

We also know this. These things did not happen in the WNBA, a league that successfully completed its bubble season in October. Nor did they happen in the National Women’s Soccer League, which survived having a team drop out before it became the first pro league to complete its season in July. The NWSL, in fact, got record TV ratings, attracted new sponsors and announced a Los Angeles expansion team backed by actor Natalie Portman.

 

 

1) lol, these neo-Puritan weirdos won't even dare speak the name of The Forbidden Blog

2) "why can't the NWHL be more like the WNBA?", now that's what I call a step toward gender equality

[monkeypower]

Yeah, the bubble was an unmitigated disaster. They had some momentum and interest building up and fumbled it.

 

18 hours ago, the admiral said:

2) "why can't the NWHL be more like the WNBA?", now that's what I call a step toward gender equality

 

As much that gets thrown at the WNBA, it's still the gold standard for (North America) women's professional leagues.

 

Here's what Bettman said in April of 2019 after the CWHL folded, basically saying that the NHL won't get involved in a women's league unless they can do it themselves without steamrolling any other existing leagues (which makes sense on their part).

 

Quote

“What we have said is, if there’s no opportunity for women to play professional hockey, then we would explore what would make sense or might be appropriate,” Bettman said. “But by the same token, I didn’t want to be presumptuous or be even bully-like and say we’re going to start a league and put them out of business. I didn’t think that was appropriate. If the NWHL is successful, great. That’s terrific.”

 

Bettman made it clear he believes in the women’s game and the NHL understands the importance of young kids being able to grow up with female role models on the ice. But he acknowledged the idea of an NHL for women is, “even under the best of circumstances, a very challenged business model.”

 

“I’ve told [NWHL Commissioner Dani Rylan] that if she is successful, we will not interfere. But ultimately it’s on her and her investors to either make a go of this or not and it’s up to the players to decide what they want. But if there is a void, then we will focus on what might be appropriate at the time,” he said.

 

Bettman said a sustainable business model would likely need the resources the NHL has, and “if we have to do that, I’m not going to turn that over to another entity where we’re responsible for it.”

 

“My understanding — and it’s a distant understanding — it that [the WNBA] is not self-sustaining without the NBA’s support,” Bettman said, when asked about the relationship between the two leagues. “And that’s why, if we get involved, we will not have the option of letting it fail. And if that’s our responsibility, then there’s an element of control we would have to be prepared to assume, obviously.”

[Red Comet]

And even with the WNBA being the gold standard for women’s leagues, it still pales in comparison to what the NBA makes.  Doesn’t help that women’s sports is still ultimately a very niche market and that even most women understand the skills canyon that separates the WNBA and NBA. And because of the physical strength, speed and size gap between men and women that men dominate completely, I don’t think that canyon is going to close. 

[monkeypower]

4 hours ago, Red Comet said:

And even with the WNBA being the gold standard for women’s leagues, it still pales in comparison to what the NBA makes.  Doesn’t help that women’s sports is still ultimately a very niche market and that even most women understand the skills canyon that separates the WNBA and NBA. And because of the physical strength, speed and size gap between men and women that men dominate completely, I don’t think that canyon is going to close. 

 

That's what I was trying to get at with the WNBA, I just didn't word it well.

 

Regardless of all the problems that the WNBA has, it is the premier professional women's sports league in North America. So while you may see the question "why can't the NWHL be more like the WNBA?" and think it's laughable, within the context of women's professional leagues it's a valid question.

 

The PHF could only hope to have the stability and establishment (within the context of women's professional leagues) that the WNBA has. And according to that old John Shannon tweet I posted, women's professional hockey may just never be able to reach WNBA levels.

[The_Admiral]

I'm not knocking the WNBA, which 25 years on, finally seems to have found its niche. I was just drawing a parallel to "why can't the NHL be more like the NBA?" discourse, that tiresome question akin to asking why a dog can't be more like an owl.

[RyanMcD29]

31 minutes ago, the admiral said:

I'm not knocking the WNBA, which 25 years on, finally seems to have found its niche. I was just drawing a parallel to "why can't the NHL be more like the NBA?" discourse, that tiresome question akin to asking why a dog can't be more like an owl.

Funnily enough in Sports Twitter tropes, "how come you guys who like women's college basketball don't like the WNBA?" has become a thing this summer, so now the annual NBA Twitter vs. NCAA Basketball Twitter discourse may finally be coming to the women's game this spring!

 

Anyway, to get a little back on track with the thread, having two new television partners but no national television schedule (with the 2nd new partner still not putting out an official full talent roster press release) 30 days before the season starts is getting quite into the OITGDNHL territory

[The_Admiral]

38 minutes ago, RyanMcD29 said:

Funnily enough in Sports Twitter tropes, "how come you guys who like women's college basketball don't like the WNBA?" has become a thing this summer, so now the annual NBA Twitter vs. NCAA Basketball Twitter discourse may finally be coming to the women's game this spring!

 

dammit! no! bah gawd no! not this way!

[Red Comet]

Hey, that monkey’s paw is going to curl whether you like it or not. People wanted equal coverage and now they’re getting it. It just happens to be the most inane sort of coverage. 

[LMU]

 

[The_Admiral]

Maybe the problem is Buffalo. Maybe we should just move every hockey team to a media market with an ACC school so that everyone is always happy all the time. They're all Great Places To Raise A Family.

[JayMac]

28 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Maybe the problem is Buffalo. Maybe we should just move every hockey team to a media market with an ACC school so that everyone is always happy all the time. They're all Great Places To Raise A Family.

Charlottesville Sabres would be in sync with the Cavaliers. But Clemson, SC and Tallahassee would work just as well for the NHL.

[The_Admiral]

It's the old Onion "NFL To Move Every Team to Los Angeles" story but for Raleigh-Durham. You thought the hockey was good in the bubble? Wait until every player can live on a golf course and go grocery shopping without being approached!

[RyanMcD29]

12 hours ago, the admiral said:

Maybe the problem is Buffalo. Maybe we should just move every hockey team to a media market with an ACC school so that everyone is always happy all the time. They're all Great Places To Raise A Family.

well, just move them two and a half hours away to Syracuse and they're set. Kinda throws a wrench in that "All 32 AHL teams in Upstate NY" plan, though

[The_Admiral]

Oh yeah, I forgot that the ACC isn't really a discrete and contiguous cultural region anymore. Pretend I said "conservative states that liberals like to move to."

[JerseyJimmy]

48 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Oh yeah, I forgot that the ACC isn't really a discrete and contiguous cultural region anymore. Pretend I said "conservative states that liberals like to move to."

 

don't you mean "conservative states that conservatives from liberal states like to move to"

 

2 hours ago, RyanMcD29 said:

well, just move them two and a half hours away to Syracuse and they're set. Kinda throws a wrench in that "All 32 AHL teams in Upstate NY" plan, though

 

crap they're onto us. quick, someone help me get the Roadrunners to Hudson

[spartacat_12]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:20 AM, GDAWG said:

And if Tempe does say yes, it would open in three-four years. They have no place to play for a few years.

 

I feel like they'll be able to work out some sort of deal with Glendale to stay in Gila River until a new arena is ready.