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NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator


The_Admiral

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I have no problem with anyone giving their opinions or complaints about the financial and/or Glendale's handling of the situation. I do however have a problem with the constant jabs and sarcastic one liners that seem to make up every other post in this thread and the playoffs thread that are solely intended to rile up the very few (and outnumbered) Coyote fans on here. Such as "house team" or the constant complaining and whining about how the Coyotes play or the asinine thought that somehow is facilitating this playoff run. Its just childish and immature trolling. I have been so quite around here because A. I dont have the time to sit around at a computer all day waiting for a new post to go up and B. As I have said I tend to keep my complaining and b****ing to myself. I am not sure what exactly you accomplish my spending so many minutes and hours venting your frustration on a sports logo board but I hope it makes you feel better.

I have been a coyotes fan since day 1 when they came here. I have been to countless games and have watched pretty much every game I had time for over the years. I am (and was) just as pissed and confused about the move to Glendale but I don't think leaving the city and pretty much abandoning West Gate is going to do anymore good for the City of Glendale in the long run than keeping them here as long as there is an owner who is willing to buy in. I also think you all are DRASTICALLY overstating the state of despair and disarre in Glendale. I don't live there but I do have family members and have yet to hear about all of these stories of libraries, police stations, fire stations and hospitals that many here write off as fact without any actual evidence. I truly believe a run like this can help get the fans back in the seat but we will just have to wait and see with that. Until then everyone can continue their jabs and jokes all while still watching the team they hate so much still playing hockey. Both in the playoffs and hopefully years to come.

Go House Team!

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I'm not about to go back in the thread and read.

This what I feel. If the deal works out, I really hope the Yotes can bring people into watch the games next year, especially being four games away from the Stanley Cup, and I hope their fans realize that there are plenty of other fan bases that currently have teams, or are awaiting franchise that would kill to have their team in the position that the Coyotes work out.

The Jets are back, so obviously I am a little more positive that the Yotes will probably end up staying. But the fans better fill those seats next year!

 

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I don't know if those are facts or not to be honest, I'd like to see a source. I'm fairly sure that the Coyotes made money in their first 5 years in the desert. They had Roenick and Tkachuk and Khabbibulin and a playoff team.

And yet, they managed to lose money.

The team has not once turned a profit. It has lost money every year, even the first 5.

An inconvenient fact, but still very much a fact.

And that's why so many of us have finally come to the conclusion that the market cannot be saved. Even with a good team, even with playoff hockey, the facts have shown that the market is just not sustainable.

Here's another link.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=4616786

The franchise has never turned a profit since moving from Winnipeg in 1996.

Anyhow elliot, Admiral covered most of it, so I'll just add a few things.

Why would the NHL have a press conference announcing the intention to go through with an illegal deal?

Jamison's deal being illegal isn't me being biased. It's simply a statement of fact. There's something on the books in Arizona called the Arizona Gift Clause (check the link out, right from the Arizona state legislator's website) which makes it illegal for a city to subsidize a private business. Hulsizer's potential deal violated that law, which is why the Goldwater institute threatened to hold the sale up in court if it went through. Jamison's deal also violates that law, which means it will likewise be held up in court if it goes through.

Like I said, this isn't me making biased statements. It's simply a statement of fact. Just like it's a statement of fact to say the team has never drawn a profit since moving to Arizona, that Glendale is ruining itself financially under the current arrangement with the NHL, and that it will continue to ruin itself financially under the deal with Jamison.

That's not bias. That's just how it is.

Yeah, life's not a movie. Yeah, the team has problems. Sure. But there's always hope.

Well I guess there is. I'll echo what Sodboy said earlier. If someone buys the team with their own money and absorbs all of the team's debts I won't have a problem with the team staying in Glendale. So in that respect, yes there is hope. That could happen. It probably won't, but it could.

Jamison's deal isn't that though. It's illegal, and it's bad for the city. Not exactly hopeful.

What would you do if the Toronto Maple Leafs, were in bankruptcy? Would you give up all hope, interpret any news as a bad sign, and string up a rope to prepare yourself for the impending doom? Or, would you look on the bright side, interpret a press conference ANNOUNCING THAT SOMEONE HAS AGREED IN PRINCIPLE TO BUY THE TEAM as a good thing, and maybe disregard a few less-than-promising figures about the financial standing of your team in the spirit of hoping that your favorite team isn't gone forever?

This is one of the lamest strategies I've seen employed on this site. "Well how would you like it if it happened to you?!?!"

I'm sorry. I cheer for a team that's dead centre of one of the most hockey crazed regions on the planet. A team that has a legal monopoly on that market. The Leafs are financially set 'til the end of time. To be perfectly honest that means I don't have to answer that question.

So I guess the lesson is "don't root for teams that are in bankruptcy" if you don't want to deal with possible relocation.

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I don't think leaving the city and pretty much abandoning West Gate is going to do anymore good for the City of Glendale in the long run than keeping them here as long as there is an owner who is willing to buy in.

Wrong: it costs more to subsidize the tenant and pay down debt than it does to pay down debt (as proven by the formula x + y > x), unless you're postulating that quality of life is so improved by having the #4 sports league that the tax increase and loss of services is worth it.

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I really do hope the Coyotes somehow become financially successful in Glendale and the fans sell out the joint night after night but it's a real long shot. If only the arena was built somewhere in Phoenix and not Glendale. Well it's way to late to look back on that.

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I really do hope the Coyotes somehow become financially successful in Glendale and the fans sell out the joint night after night but it's a real long shot. If only the arena was built somewhere in Phoenix and not Glendale. Well it's way to late to look back on that.

That's more than a long shot, that's impossible.

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I don't think leaving the city and pretty much abandoning West Gate is going to do anymore good for the City of Glendale in the long run than keeping them here as long as there is an owner who is willing to buy in.

Wrong: it costs more to subsidize the tenant and pay down debt than it does to pay down debt (as proven by the formula x + y > x), unless you're postulating that quality of life is so improved by having the #4 sports league that the tax increase and loss of services is worth it.

What I am saying is I have yet to hear about all of these government services shutting down and thousands of people losing their jobs solely based on a hockey team. I can however say that moving the coyotes would immdiatley mean the loss of at least a few popcorn vendors at jobbing.

I am just so glad their are people on a internet board who can stand up and tell the people of Glendale what their elected officials can and can't do with the city they live in.

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I don't think leaving the city and pretty much abandoning West Gate is going to do anymore good for the City of Glendale in the long run than keeping them here as long as there is an owner who is willing to buy in.

Wrong: it costs more to subsidize the tenant and pay down debt than it does to pay down debt (as proven by the formula x + y > x), unless you're postulating that quality of life is so improved by having the #4 sports league that the tax increase and loss of services is worth it.

What I am saying is I have yet to hear about all of these government services shutting down and thousands of people losing their jobs solely based on a hockey team.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/02/27/20120227glendale-residents-fear-more-cuts-library-service.html

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/westsideinsider/159640

I'm not sure if it was you or someone else Squeaks, but someone complained that the very title of the thread was an insult to the Coyotes and their fans. Well the title was taken directly from Phil Lieberman, a member of the Glendale City Council who wants out of this nonsense. You know, one of those elected leaders you're so fond of? He's the reason the thread has its name.

I am just so glad their are people on a internet board who can stand up and tell the people of Glendale what their elected officials can and can't do with the city they live in.

I'm not telling the people of Glendale what their elected officials can and can't do. The state of Arizona is.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/const/9/7.htm

That same link was four posts above yours, on the same page by the way.

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So a library cutting some hours has somehow turned into the citizens of Glendale not being able to call the fire department or police because they have all been fired? I mean seriously you don't have the first clue of how the residents of Glendale live.

And ok so there is one outspoken councilmen against all of this and that somehow means that my comments about the elected officals is wrong? The city council has had many votes over all of this and have come back in favor of keeping them here. Sure your friend Phil might of voted no but he obviously was not in the majority. I am sorry you are not a resident of Glendale and don't have the power to say who is elected or how the city is run but complaining about it on a message board isn't going to change anything. If the city of Glendale is in fact on the road to ruin and destruction I promise no one will blame you all for not trying to warn the ignorant citizens of Glendale. Until then though how about just let them decide who is elected and what will and will not happen in their own city?

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So a library cutting some hours has somehow turned into the citizens of Glendale not being able to call the fire department or police because they have all been fired?

The funny thing about all of this is that this was discussed pages back. I know that the nature of the thread may make you inclined to stay away, and that's fine, but don't show up and start talking about this as if we're all just making stuff up. Actually go back and read the thread if you want to comment on its goings on.

Anyway the fact is that Glendale shouldn't have to close libraries, or hell, even cut library hours as long as they're paying the NHL $25 million a year to cover the Coyotes. They shouldn't be paying anything at all for the Coyotes. Not when something as basic as libraries are on the chopping block.

Elaine Scruggs, the mayor of Glendale, made a huge stink (find it yourself, it's a few pages back) about the city possibly not being able to pay the NHL the money it owes it for this year. So if that's the case now, I don't see how the city's finances look promising either under the current arrangement or the Jamison deal for years to come.

I mean seriously you don't have the first clue of how the residents of Glendale live.

You really want to play that card? I'm not the one holding onto hope the that the Coyotes stick around, regardless of the cost to the city they play in. It's rather cold to say "I want the Coyotes to stick around no matter what" while Glendale contemplates plans that would make it a city with one of the highest tax rates in the US just to pay for the Coyotes' continued existence.

And ok so there is one outspoken councilmen against all of this and that somehow means that my comments about the elected officals is wrong?

It just means that the you nor any other Coyote fan should complain about the title of the thread. No one here coined it. One of your own did.

The city council has had many votes over all of this and have come back in favor of keeping them here.

Governments decide to do stupid and/or illegal things all the time.

Sure your friend Phil might of voted no but he obviously was not in the majority.

I don't know Mr. Lieberman. I'm sure he's a nice enough guy, but I've never met him. So reign in the Coyotes rage and bad attempted insults.

I do know that the last vote on the matter was a 4-3 split, however. Meaning that there are serious cracks in the wall of support the Coyotes seem to have in the Glendale city council.

I am sorry you are not a resident of Glendale and don't have the power to say who is elected or how the city is run but complaining about it on a message board isn't going to change anything. If the city of Glendale is in fact on the road to ruin and destruction I promise no one will blame you all for not trying to warn the ignorant citizens of Glendale. Until then though how about just let them decide who is elected and what will and will not happen in their own city?

You're missing the point entirely. I've already posted this twice now, maybe third time's the charm.

Arizona Gift Clause. I'm not telling Glendale's elected officials what they can or can't do. The state of Arizona is. It is illegal for them, or any other city in your state, to subsidize a private business, which the Coyotes qualify as. Therefore it is illegal for them to agree to a deal that would require them to subsidize any potential new owner.

That's the state, your state, telling them what they can and can't do. I'm just relaying the information to you. Sorry if it bums you out.

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I have no problem with anyone giving their opinions or complaints about the financial and/or Glendale's handling of the situation. I do however have a problem with the constant jabs and sarcastic one liners that seem to make up every other post in this thread and the playoffs thread that are solely intended to rile up the very few (and outnumbered) Coyote fans on here.

Objection, Your Honor. Assuming facts not in evidence.

I don't think anyone has that intention. We don't dislike Coyote fans. At least I sure don't, and I've seen no indication that anyone else does. We tease them for their very low numbers, but we respect the existing fans while ridiculing the market as a whole (as should Coyote fans interested in placing blame where it belongs).

I am sick of Bettman, the Glendale City Council and anyone who is eager to support a demonstrably-unwanted team with demonstrably-illegal subsidies.

And let's not pretend that the effects of a very bad deal will be limited to Glendale taxpayers. The business of sports means that what one municipality gives to a team becomes precedent for the next market. In 1952 Milwaukee built a publicly-funded stadium to lure a relocating baseball franchise. It worked, and set a precedent that quickly became the standard for all cities that still exists today. So if Glendale is willing to funnel tens of millions of taxpayer funds to a failing team under the facade of wildly-inflated and unjustified "stadium operating fees", then the next city might be obliged to. We all have skin in this game.

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Others have said basically the same thing much fuller & more eloquently than I could, but here's my basic pair of Lincolns on the matter:

- A city being allowed to cut public services & bump itself to one of the highest tax rates in the nation in order to subsidise a sports team is stupid.

- The fact that this supposed deal that has been agreed relies upon continued subsidies from the city is frankly ridiculous.

- The fact that all this effort is being put in to save a team who have NEVER turned a profit, and until this year hadn't ever won a playoff series either is just mind blowing.

- This is Gary Bettman's NHL and he will deep in the cold, dead ground before he recognises that his Arizona Hockey ExperimentTM has failed.

- IF, & that is one enormous if, they manage to find someone rich/dumb enough to put together a deal which allows the Coyotes to stay in Glendale based on private money & no subsidies, good on them, this isn't a rant about Southern hockey

1 hour ago, BringBackTheVet said:

sorry sweetie, but I don't suck minor-league d

CCSLC Post of the day September 3rd 2012

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While it's nice to see some new usernames in here and some Coyotes fire and passion other than BigMac12, please note that we're 75 pages deep and the first "Here We Go Again" thread was 100+ before dying as the "Celebrate Winnipeg" thread. And it wasn't all snark and -- *sigh* -- "haters." They're full of links to all of the stories that contained facts that we cite here when making our case. It's years of documented history, right here in these threads.

So for some of you newcomers to come in, admit you haven't been following along and won't read the thread, yet are sure that "this time it's real" and "the Coyotes are viable," and "it's just Canadians vs. Americans," and "the fanbase is a sleeping giant," and "no really, they made money once," and... and... and ... more blind faith. Be a fan and enjoy the team's success, but believe us when we say this ownership deal has all been done before. Funny that you Coyotes die-hards didn't notice last year when Matt Hulsizer was in the role of "future owner." But it was presented just as seriously and just as formally as Jamison and it was illegal then, so there's no reason to think it's legal now. Not by our laws, but Arizona's.

And for you "what-if" scenario people, I'll tell you right now that the Cubs don't deserve a dime from its bankrupt home state and they should be told to take a hike, too. And if the Cubs thraten to move because of it, it doesn't change my stance. There are more important things than SPORTS! -- © IceCap -- and subsidizing millionaire owners who can pay for their stadium upgrades and their teams, but just don't want to.

EDIT: And I'll add my name to list of "save the Coyotes" supporters if they find a buyer actually willing to buy the team without taking handouts from Glendale. I will also hop on the bandwagon, subsidies and all, if they return the Picasso Coyote to it's rightful place on the sweaters (hey, this is a logos board after all).

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If the Coyotes are a sleeping giant franchise-wise, then they've been asleep for 16 years. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as comatose.

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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304363104577392403708180314.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Under the proposal that the NHL has laid out for city council members, the city would continue paying an arena-management fee that would average about $14.5 million a year.

On top of the city's average $12.6 million in debt service, that amounts to annual expenses of about $27.1 million?to be offset by anticipated Coyotes-related revenue of $14.2 million, according to projections by Glendale's city management department. That adds up to a projected annual loss for Glendale of $12.9 million.

By the time the new ownership deal ran its course in 2033, Glendale would have paid $271 million?nearly $1,200 for each of its 226,721 citizens?to keep the team.

These expenses outweigh Glendale's Coyotes-related revenue by such a degree that Moody's has downgraded the city's bond rating twice in the last 18 months, citing the city's ongoing hockey payments.

pear

♫ oh yeah, board goes on, long after the thrill of postin' is gone ♫

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Don't stop there - it was just getting good.

These expenses outweigh Glendale's Coyotes-related revenue by such a degree that Moody's has downgraded the city's bond rating twice in the last 18 months, citing the city's ongoing hockey payments. In part due to the Coyotes, the city's reserve fund has fallen to $11.7 million from $72.5 million six years ago. Facing a projected $35 million budget gap?in a city whose general revenue funds in the most recent fiscal year amounted to $142.6 million?Glendale is proposing to raise its property and sales tax rates, while slashing library hours and hiking fees for city services.

They're already on the verge of ruining themselves. Now Glendale wants to up their payments? Madness.

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But but but but but attendance will get better next year! Jamison is going to magically fill the arena! They're going to turn a profit next year, I promise!

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King's Own Hexham FC (BIP - 2022 Saint's Cup Champions) Portland Explorers (EFL - Elite Bowl XIX Champions) Real San Diego (UPL) Red Bull Seattle (ULL - 2018, 2019, 2020 Gait Cup Champions) Vancouver Huskies (CL)

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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304363104577392403708180314.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Under the proposal that the NHL has laid out for city council members, the city would continue paying an arena-management fee that would average about $14.5 million a year.

On top of the city's average $12.6 million in debt service, that amounts to annual expenses of about $27.1 million?to be offset by anticipated Coyotes-related revenue of $14.2 million, according to projections by Glendale's city management department. That adds up to a projected annual loss for Glendale of $12.9 million.

By the time the new ownership deal ran its course in 2033, Glendale would have paid $271 million?nearly $1,200 for each of its 226,721 citizens?to keep the team.

These expenses outweigh Glendale's Coyotes-related revenue by such a degree that Moody's has downgraded the city's bond rating twice in the last 18 months, citing the city's ongoing hockey payments.

pear

$1200 per citizen? Cripes, they should all get complimentary season tickets.

On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said:
You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now.
On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said:
Today, we are all otaku.

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http://online.wsj.co...=googlenews_wsj

Under the proposal that the NHL has laid out for city council members, the city would continue paying an arena-management fee that would average about $14.5 million a year.

On top of the city's average $12.6 million in debt service, that amounts to annual expenses of about $27.1 million?to be offset by anticipated Coyotes-related revenue of $14.2 million, according to projections by Glendale's city management department. That adds up to a projected annual loss for Glendale of $12.9 million.

By the time the new ownership deal ran its course in 2033, Glendale would have paid $271 million?nearly $1,200 for each of its 226,721 citizens?to keep the team.

These expenses outweigh Glendale's Coyotes-related revenue by such a degree that Moody's has downgraded the city's bond rating twice in the last 18 months, citing the city's ongoing hockey payments.

pear

$1200 per citizen? Cripes, they should all get complimentary season tickets.

But who would protect their homes those 40 game days/nights?

That said, if passed, those who live in Glendale will just go to a neighboring suburb to shop for groceries and many other items; teams will still take a bus and stay in Scottsdale over the Glendale Renaissance.

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