leopard88

Cardinals Investigated By FBI

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I've been reading that the Cubs have a very similar database to that of the Astros and that Epstein said he has double-checked the security system on said database. Part of me is glad that the Cardinals didn't cheat off of the Cubs, but my other half is kind of wishing they had; it would give me even greater reason to hate on that despicable baseball organization, and shouldn't it be considered common courtesy to at least cheat off of a rival if you're going to stoop to that level?

Again, the direction this story is heading is not that the Cardinals "cheated" off of anybody.

It's that some employees of whom Lunhow had apparently made enemies with targeted him and his system for a data breach and leak.

AT THIS POINT, we're looking at criminal actions by an unknown number of Cardinals employees with Jeff Lunhow and the Astros as the victims. So far we don't know of any claims or evidence that they used the information in a manner consistent with cheating.

I know a lot of people want to be able to call the Cardinals cheaters, and that opportunity may still arise here. But illegal activity and cheating are not one in the same. They can still be every bit as villainous as you want them to be for employing these potential criminals. But it's not cheating until the illegal activity is used to gain and advantage.

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You'd have to be incredibly naïve to believe that the Cardinals, a franchise that prides itself on a "Cardinal Way" of winning baseball games by finding under-the-radar players who simply work harder than the rest and play the game in a fundamentally sound manner, would hack into the database of a team that is known for its superior research into players, both at collegiate/high school and professional levels, with no intention of gaining any strategic advantage whatsoever, solely because they wanted to act on a gripe they had with the team's GM.

And is it simply a result of the Cardinals' infallible and unmatched genius that they're having a substantially better regular season in 2015 than they did in 2014? Yeah, I don't think so.

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You'd have to be incredibly naïve to believe that the Cardinals, a franchise that prides itself on a "Cardinal Way" of winning baseball games by finding under-the-radar players who simply work harder than the rest and play the game in a fundamentally sound manner, would hack into the database of a team that is known for its superior research into players, both at collegiate/high school and professional levels, with no intention of gaining any strategic advantage whatsoever, solely because they wanted to act on a gripe they had with the team's GM.

And is it simply a result of the Cardinals' infallible and unmatched genius that they're having a substantially better regular season in 2015 than they did in 2014? Yeah, I don't think so.

Because the Cardinals aren't even guaranteed to play the Astros and why do you want the leavings of a team that's going to promote most of its young players?

Re: regular season success, I theorize it's because the NL Central got worse over the past offseason.

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Again, the direction this story is heading is not that the Cardinals "cheated" off of anybody.

We don't know that to be the case.

It certainly appears that the motive for the hacking was personal. But until Cardinals officials are cleared of not receiving the stolen information, we don't know that they didn't also use it.

It can be both a personal attack and cheating.

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Again, the direction this story is heading is not that the Cardinals "cheated" off of anybody.

We don't know that to be the case.

It certainly appears that the motive for the hacking was personal. But until Cardinals officials are cleared of not receiving the stolen information, we don't know that they didn't also use it.

It can be both a personal attack and cheating.

I am starting to believe that it was not about cheating. Now if it turns out the Cards hacked another team then all bets are off.

But let's say for argument's sake that this was not about cheating...MLB still has to kinda treat it like it was. It still has to set a precedent that makes it clear that this stuff will not be tolerated. A slap on the wrist sends a message. If it's not cheating, it looks better for MLB and maybe they cool it on taking draft picks (maybe one high pick instead of a big load) but the franchise would still need a big fine and anyone involved needs to be banned for life. It may not have been cheating but it's a way that cheating could occur.

Why do NFL teams pump in music, inflate balls, deflate balls, put Vasoline on their jerseys, etc.? Because (until now), there were no punishments to serve as disincentives.

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Yeah, I'm not part of the Cardinal-hating contingent to begin with, but I think the preemptive furor here is dumb. We'll see how the investigation works out, but it doesn't look now as if they did this to cheat. It's the freaking Astros, who were a dumpster franchise when this hack occurred. The Cards would have hacked another team if they wanted trade secrets.

As for what punishment MLB should take? Obviously it depends on the outcome of the investigation, but I'm not so sure the team even needs to be punished. If it turns out to be one guy acting by himself who did it out of vengeance against Luhnow, how is the team accountable? How would the Cardinals be more accountable for that than if this employee stabbed Luhnow? If the employee wasn't taking directions and didn't report his findings to anyone else in the team, I don't think the team needs to be hit over this. This isn't normal in-game cheating stuff. This is extracurricular illegality, and the guy who did it is going to go to jail.

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Yeah, I'm not part of the Cardinal-hating contingent to begin with, but I think the preemptive furor here is dumb. We'll see how the investigation works out, but it doesn't look now as if they did this to cheat. It's the freaking Astros, who were a dumpster franchise when this hack occurred. The Cards would have hacked another team if they wanted trade secrets.

As for what punishment MLB should take? Obviously it depends on the outcome of the investigation, but I'm not so sure the team even needs to be punished. If it turns out to be one guy acting by himself who did it out of vengeance against Luhnow, how is the team accountable? How would the Cardinals be more accountable for that than if this employee stabbed Luhnow? If the employee wasn't taking directions and didn't report his findings to anyone else in the team, I don't think the team needs to be hit over this. This isn't normal in-game cheating stuff. This is extracurricular illegality, and the guy who did it is going to go to jail.

I get the Cardinal hate and deal with it, maybe because I wasn't born into Cardinal Nation. And as, I've stated in previous posts - I despise "the Cardinal way" phrase. So do with that as you please, a few early posts in this thread were quite funny.

As for the potential of this whole investigation, I agree with TheOldRoman, If it's one or two disgruntled employees of Luhnow, then I think the teams removes said individuals from the organization. If it turns out Cardinals brass gave a directive to conduct the hack, then that's different, much different. I really hope it isn't the latter, not just because it would confirm the Cardinals cheated, but also fans would start to wonder if their team and how many other teams, if any did this sort of thing and got away with it.

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Again, the direction this story is heading is not that the Cardinals "cheated" off of anybody.

We don't know that to be the case.

It certainly appears that the motive for the hacking was personal. But until Cardinals officials are cleared of not receiving the stolen information, we don't know that they didn't also use it.

It can be both a personal attack and cheating.

I've been careful to say things in the vein "where the story is heading" and "what we know now" and such. I've very much left my posts and my mind open to the idea that cheating may end up being involved/alleged.

It's just not where anything is pointing right now, and it's a bit of a slanderous conclusion to jump to at this point. Maybe criminals are asking to be slandered, but I think we'd all agree that in the sports world the suggestion of cheating is a BIG deal, and no matter how much you hate a team, it's a big deal to label them as cheaters until there's some evidence that suggests it.

In the real world the data hack and dump is a big deal all it's own. But in the sports world it's an extra big deal if cheating with that information occurred. Right now we don't know if it has and we don't have any "sources" suggesting that to be the case.

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But let's say for argument's sake that this was not about cheating...MLB still has to kinda treat it like it was. It still has to set a precedent that makes it clear that this stuff will not be tolerated. A slap on the wrist sends a message. If it's not cheating, it looks better for MLB and maybe they cool it on taking draft picks (maybe one high pick instead of a big load) but the franchise would still need a big fine and anyone involved needs to be banned for life. It may not have been cheating but it's a way that cheating could occur.

This is really a question that's hard to answer.

One one hand if this is one or two employees acting on their own and the team didn't cheat, what you've got is a couple of employees committing a crime. I'm not sure I can every remember an entire organization being punished because one of their employees had legal trouble.

On the other hand, as you say, the "what could have happened" impacts on this are pretty big. And the crime was committed against another MLB employee and another team.

Not sure I envy the commissioner hear. You want to send a message and set a precedent, but you also want to be fair and rational based on what really took place. I'm thinking if this truly stayed low-level with no cheating, you go for a decent fine. If the scope was a little bigger, maybe draft picks (if the CBA will allow for that).

If it turns out to be a big cheating scandal, then I'm not sure what you do, but you obviously have to go notably bigger.

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If it can be established that no higher-ups had knowledge of the hack, either before or after the fact, then I think it's probably okay just to punish the specific individuals.

But if anyone within the corporate structure knew of this, even learned after the fact, and they didn't report it to the Commissioner immediately, then we can presume cheating or intent to cheat and the penalties should be very harsh on the team itself.

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People are only pouncing on this because it's the Cardinals. Would the fervor be as hot if it was the Padres or the Indians or another similarly inoffensive team? No way. I'll be honest, I'm hoping there's a story here because Team High Horse could really stand to come down a few pegs. This is the judge who gets caught with a pile of cocaine or the right wing conservative senator who gets caught with his male assistant in an airport bathroom. It's the story that lets all of us know we're not that bad and they're not better than us.

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People are only pouncing on this because it's the Cardinals. Would the fervor be as hot if it was the Padres or the Indians or another similarly inoffensive team? No way. I'll be honest, I'm hoping there's a story here because Team High Horse could really stand to come down a few pegs. This is the judge who gets caught with a pile of cocaine or the right wing conservative senator who gets caught with his male assistant in an airport bathroom. It's the story that lets all of us know we're not that bad and they're not better than us.

I cannot disagree that there's more fervor, attention and excitement because it's the Cardinals. There is definitely more joy. That's too bad. While I grow a little tired of "the Cardinal way," I generally am not one of those Card-haters. I traditionally have liked 'em, I suppose for their uniforms. So for me, I have the same concerns I'd have if it was the Padres. If it is rogue guys being jerks, then all will be fine. If it is cheating, it concerns me for the game and the offending team, be it Cards, Padres, Yankees, or Twins needs to be dealt with severely. That's how I feel about it. But I know you are right; this is getting wheels WAY faster than it would if it was most other teams. And only when legitimate cheating was uncovered would a Padres scandal get much concern. Speaking of the Padres, I just wish they'd hack the browns for color scheme purposes.

So should I mock you for cheering this? Yes. Will I? No. Why? Because if it was the Packers...

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People are only pouncing on this because it's the Cardinals. Would the fervor be as hot if it was the Padres or the Indians or another similarly inoffensive team? No way. I'll be honest, I'm hoping there's a story here because Team High Horse could really stand to come down a few pegs. This is the judge who gets caught with a pile of cocaine or the right wing conservative senator who gets caught with his male assistant in an airport bathroom. It's the story that lets all of us know we're not that bad and they're not better than us.

Right. This is the left wing representative pushing anti-gun legislation who is busted laundering money and moving illegal guns with the Chinese mob or the global warming alarmist who sends a private jet around the world to pick up his dog. But does the Cardinals organization itself push the holier-than-thou thing, or is it just the fans? I mean, obviously the organization does a whole bunch of things right, and it's given the fans plenty or reason to be full of themselves. And you're right that, at least among message boarders, this wouldn't be nearly the story if it was another organization.

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Or the conservative Christians who attack gay people while sheltering and supporting child molesters in their own families? :P

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Right. Or the left wing candidate who rallies against the one percent and cries poor despite making several million a year in speaking fees and being bankrolled by mega-donors. Or that same candidate putting up a faux rage against hedge fund managers while her son-in-law is one. Or a one-man interest group fighting for higher taxes and against "special interest money" while giving billions to candidates and also structuring tax shelters to avoid paying hundreds of millions in taxes. Just like the Cardinals cheating.

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Oh this :censored: just got real.

This is the Cardinals,on of the best in this sport,any sport,hacking into a team's database?

#cardinalgate

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