The 2016 CCSLC Baseball HOF Induction Thread

[pmoehrin]

It would be nice if some of those "either Jack Morris is getting in or nobody is getting in" voters would get off their moral high horse and support Alan Trammell who has a far better case for the Hall than Morris.

People can go into the offseason thread to see my picks and what I think of each, but I have my own HOF as a side project where I induct three players in even years, two in odd years starting in 1936 and keeping in line with MLB's eligibility rules (for anyone curious the three inductees I had this year were Ken Griffey, John Smoltz and Frank Thomas, last year was just Pedro and Randy and '14 was Greg Maddux, Mike Mussina and Curt Schilling) and under my system Alan Trammell would have been inducted in 2002.

What that tells me is either myself or the HOF is extremely far off on Alan Trammell's standing in history and I don't think its me. Shortstops with over 2,000 hits and multiple deserving gold gloves to their name tend to get in pretty easily for me because go through the names of everyone else that's done that and you'll see my point.

So based off of your post in the Hot Stove thread, should I put your picks in for: Bonds, Clemens, Griffey, Mussina, Schilling, Bagwell, and Trammell?

Those aren't the seven names I would vote for, those are just simply the seven people eligible where I simply just simply cannot come up with any reason why I would say no to them. Under any standard these should be no brainer HOF members.

If I actually had a HOF vote, I'm not so sure I would go down the Bustey Olney route and just obtain indefinitely.

Part of the reason is PED's, part of the reason is an antiquated voting system and even more antiquated voters, but mostly it's because of the glut. Its gotten to the point where I have to say no to certain players who I think should be in, because the maximum number of players you can vote for is ten. So Jim Edmonds, McGwire, Nomar, Piazza, Sosa would all receive no votes from me if this was a real vote, even though I think all five are deserving of induction.

Until the Hall of Fame is ready to start having multiple classes of five plus members, which is probably not going to happen anytime soon, the glut is just going to keep growing. But when voters can't even put someone in who was top ten in ERA 10 times in his career, what do you expect to happen?

[Kramerica Industries]

It's kinda hysterical for me to think that, between actual players and those who are tasked with deciding who goes into the Hall of Fame, that it's the voters who have the collectively larger ego than the players do, and that it's not even close. The moral high horse that the BBWAA sits on is actually further up in the sky than actual clouds. It's part of the reason why I generally stay away from discussing this subject at all except for allowing myself to do so a little bit on the actual "who got in" day each year, because it's such a waste of time. The BBWAA has allowed a massive backlog to be created, and has then exacerbated it by limiting the time each player can be on the ballot going forward (and only a partial grandfather clause of allowing those in year 11 or later to stay on for the previous 15 year maximum, but not extending the same to those who had not reached that point; because, after all, someone who hasn't gotten in the first 10 times is suddenly Hall-worthy the 11th-15th times they appear).

It's a subject that makes me sick to even discuss, frankly. Gaylord Perry's blatant on-field cheating was quirky and colorful. Meanwhile, Jeff Bagwell has never once been proven to have taken an illegal supplement of any kind, yet he's locked out of the Hall because he played during the same time period as many others who either used or were alleged to have used illegal supplements. Whatever.

(Yet Jack Morris is a fond advocate for many, mostly because he pitched a couple brilliant games in the World Series. Which is fine! Jack Morris threw some memorable outings and won championships because of it. But that doesn't make someone a Hall of Famer by any stretch of the term. Mike Mussina had a far better career, pitching his entirely in the best division in baseball during the height of the steroid era, yet because he played for the Orioles during the time when the Yankees had the AL East on lockdown, and then played for the Yankees during the time when they spent a billion dollars to keep getting burned by postseason SSS randomness, he doesn't have any rings and this no doubt hurts him compared to his peers. Yes, I will keep advocating for Moose any chance I get because there's no doubt to me that he is a Hall of Fame pitcher and, yes, I extend the same courtesy to Curt Schilling, just in case anyone actually questions my objectivity on the matter.)

[JayMac]

As an Orioles fan, I was always bitter that Mussina left for the Bronx. So i dont know if this is a biased opinion or not, but I don't think he is a HOF caliber pitcher. His stats were good but not great. I never thought he was a dominant pitcher. It's funny that his stats were actually better with the Orioles. I would have said the opposite if you asked me.

[pmoehrin]

As an Orioles fan, I was always bitter that Mussina left for the Bronx. So i dont know if this is a biased opinion or not, but I don't think he is a HOF caliber pitcher. His stats were good but not great. I never thought he was a dominant pitcher. It's funny that his stats were actually better with the Orioles. I would have said the opposite if you asked me.

Mike Mussina was top five in the league in ERA eight times in his career. That's the same number of times as Bob Gibson.

If you say he didn't seem that dominant of a pitcher, I would say compared to who? Lefty Grove?

These are not the types of HOF debates that should be happening, but when you have voters who think there's only 5 or 6 starters from an era worthy of induction, I could see why people may think that any starting pitcher not named Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux is basically chop liver.

[Crabcake]

Just a reminder to anyone who wants to submit a ballot, the vote will be announced on Wednesday, January 6. The last day to submit ballots will be next Tuesday, January 5.

[2001mark]

As an Orioles fan, I was always bitter that Mussina left for the Bronx. So i dont know if this is a biased opinion or not, but I don't think he is a HOF caliber pitcher. His stats were good but not great. I never thought he was a dominant pitcher. It's funny that his stats were actually better with the Orioles. I would have said the opposite if you asked me.

I always pegged him as the AL's Greg Maddux, lite. I vote for him into the HOF, even if he's not Walter Johnson.

[Tigers6884]

My picks would be Bagwell, Griffey, Hoffman, Piazza, Smith, Trammell, and Walker.

Can I amend my ballot and the way I filled it out? I only have two changes.

Jeff Bagwell (Astros cap)

Ken Griffey Jr (backwards cap, no logo, but count him as a Mariner)

Trevor Hoffman (Padres cap)

Fred McGriff (Braves cap)

Mike Piazza (Marlins cap jokingly, Mets cap seriously)

Tim Raines (Expos cap)

Lee Smith (Cardinals cap)

Alan Trammell (Tigers cap, elect Lou Whitaker via Expansion Committee next voting year)

Larry Walker (Rockies cap)

Edit: Added McGriff and Raines.

[Crabcake]

My picks would be Bagwell, Griffey, Hoffman, Piazza, Smith, Trammell, and Walker.

Can I amend my ballot and the way I filled it out? I only have two changes.

Jeff Bagwell (Astros cap)

Ken Griffey Jr (backwards cap, no logo, but count him as a Mariner)

Trevor Hoffman (Padres cap)

Fred McGriff (Braves cap)

Mike Piazza (Marlins cap jokingly, Mets cap seriously)

Tim Raines (Expos cap)

Lee Smith (Cardinals cap)

Alan Trammell (Tigers cap, elect Lou Whitaker via Expansion Committee next voting year)

Larry Walker (Rockies cap)

Edit: Added McGriff and Raines.

No problem, I'll amend your ballot today if I get the chance.

[pmoehrin]

As an Orioles fan, I was always bitter that Mussina left for the Bronx. So i dont know if this is a biased opinion or not, but I don't think he is a HOF caliber pitcher. His stats were good but not great. I never thought he was a dominant pitcher. It's funny that his stats were actually better with the Orioles. I would have said the opposite if you asked me.

I always pegged him as the AL's Greg Maddux, lite. I vote for him into the HOF, even if he's not Walter Johnson.

To me a Hall of Famer should be any player who could realistically be the best player on a World Series winning team on more one occasion. That's the goal every team has in Spring Training. Hall of Famers should be a list of the guys you needed to get there. Without having at least one HOFer on the roster it should be damn near impossible to win a World Series. The only team I can think of over the last 60 years where there wasn't a single player on the team that I view as a HOFer is the '88 Dodgers. Closest one IMO is Orel Hershiser.

That's why I would never vote yes for someone like Charlie Hough, because the number of years where I think its possible for him to be the best player on the best team in baseball is somewhere between zero and two.

Mussina made the playoffs nine times in his career and I thought was the best pitcher on five of those teams. ('96 Orioles, '97 Orioles, '01 Yankees, '02 Yankees, '03 Yankees) Two of those teams got to the World Series and another one ('97 Orioles) probably should have. Also aside from the '96 Orioles, every single one of these was top four in the AL in ERA, so it wasn't like he was heading up bad pitching staffs either. He was outpitching guys like Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key and David Wells.

I think having Mike Mussina on the roster would immensely improve any team's chances of winning the World Series in the mid-90's to early 2000's.

I would much rather talk about someone like Nomar Garciaparra. Is batting .337 and averaging 25+ home runs a years over a four year stretch as a shortstop in addition to two other years where you had a .300 batting average and hit 20+ home runs really enough to warrant you being on the list of guys who you basically must have on your team to win the World Series? I think it is, but I can find much more room for discussion there. The argument for borderline HOFers always goes back to peak dominance versus career longevity. Its easy to make a call on someone when they have both going for them, but what happens when they only have one? I don't think it can be an across the board no or an across the board yes for players like that.

[JayMac]

I told you that I could just be a bitter Orioles fan.

[pmoehrin]

I told you that I could just be a bitter Orioles fan.

Like I said earlier, if the standard is just four or five pitchers from an era I can see why people may think these guys are borderline.

Problem is the standard has never been that high. I think Carl Hubbell would be considered borderline in this day and age.

You also only have to go back 30 years to see Roger Maris being a serious HOF candidate simply for breaking the home run record. Had he hit 57 home runs instead of 61 I doubt he would have lasted more than a single ballot. Catfish Hunter and his ERA+ of 104 got in on the third ballot. Most people would probably laugh if I said Kevin Appier had a pretty good case for the Hall. The writers clearly did because he only got one vote for the one year he was on the ballot. His ERA+ is 121 and was top ten in WHIP as many times as Hunter was.

If Hunter came in now he would probably be looked at in the same light as Jason Schmidt and would be rightfully tossed after one vote.

Its just amazing that in a matter of 30 years we've seen to have gone from one extreme to the other.

[Shumway]

Bagwell (Astros)

Griffey (M's)

Hoffman (Padres)

Piazza (Dodgers)

Smith (Cardinals)

Edmonds* (Cardinals)

Trammell (Tigers)

Walker (Rockies)

Bonds (Giants)

Clemens (Red Sox)

*Edmonds is my childhood hero. Am I the only person to vote for him? Probably, and for good reason, although his credentials are better than even I thought they were. That said, I don't consider him a hall of fame player, even though I'd love it if he was. I can be the 2016 CCSLC version of the dude who voted for Darin Erstad, who, strangely enough, is also one of my all-time favorites.

[Crabcake]

Bagwell (Astros)

Griffey (M's)

Hoffman (Padres)

Piazza (Dodgers)

Smith (Cardinals)

Edmonds* (Cardinals)

Trammell (Tigers)

Walker (Rockies)

Bonds (Giants)

Clemens (Red Sox)

*Edmonds is my childhood hero. Am I the only person to vote for him? Probably, and for good reason, although his credentials are better than even I thought they were. That said, I don't consider him a hall of fame player, even though I'd love it if he was. I can be the 2016 CCSLC version of the dude who voted for Darin Erstad, who, strangely enough, is also one of my all-time favorites.

Yeah, you're the first to vote for Edmonds, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you were the only one. Out of all the "fringe" guys, though, Edmonds probably has the best case, along w/ maybe Nomar and Wagner.

Interesting you went with the Dodgers for Piazza's cap. Everyone seems to think of him as a Met, although the Dodgers are probably his second most recognizable team.

By the way, just so everyone knows, the cap logos mean nothing. If you want to make it count, I can work that in somehow, but right now, it's just for fun.

[FinsUp1214]

I'll take Bagwell, Griffey, Kent, Mussina, Raines, and Trammell.

And if we're talking caps?

Bagwell - Houston

Griffey - Seattle

Kent - San Francisco

Mussina - Baltimore

Raines - Montreal

Trammell - Detroit

[AnPheitseog]

After debate, I am submitting a blank ballot

[pmoehrin]

Bagwell (Astros)

Griffey (M's)

Hoffman (Padres)

Piazza (Dodgers)

Smith (Cardinals)

Edmonds* (Cardinals)

Trammell (Tigers)

Walker (Rockies)

Bonds (Giants)

Clemens (Red Sox)

*Edmonds is my childhood hero. Am I the only person to vote for him? Probably, and for good reason, although his credentials are better than even I thought they were. That said, I don't consider him a hall of fame player, even though I'd love it if he was. I can be the 2016 CCSLC version of the dude who voted for Darin Erstad, who, strangely enough, is also one of my all-time favorites.

Guys like Edmonds are why I would advocate for a half vote.

I tend to lean yes for him, but really don't have that strong of an opinion whether he gets in or not. He wouldn't be the worst in and he wouldn't be the best name not in. Far from both I would say.

We like to think that's there's this defined line that exists between a HOF player and a non HOFer that's clear and can be very well defined, when in reality it's really a blur.

Everyone knows Babe Ruth is a HOFer. Everyone knows David Eckstein is not. Someone like Fred McGriff I don't think falls entirely into either category.

I think it would allow voters to much better craft what their real opinion is.

[zigzag]

I'd pick:

Piazza

Bagwell

Schilling

Clemens

Bonds

Trammell

Mussina

Kent

McGriff

Walker

[Mac the Knife]

As an Orioles fan, I was always bitter that Mussina left for the Bronx. So i dont know if this is a biased opinion or not, but I don't think he is a HOF caliber pitcher. His stats were good but not great. I never thought he was a dominant pitcher. It's funny that his stats were actually better with the Orioles. I would have said the opposite if you asked me.

Mike Mussina was top five in the league in ERA eight times in his career. That's the same number of times as Bob Gibson.

If you say he didn't seem that dominant of a pitcher, I would say compared to who? Lefty Grove?

These are not the types of HOF debates that should be happening, but when you have voters who think there's only 5 or 6 starters from an era worthy of induction, I could see why people may think that any starting pitcher not named Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux is basically chop liver.

I'm sorry, but I'm also in the "no" category where Mussina's concerned, though it's not an adamant "no." I put him in the same category as Jack Morris and Dave Parker - qualified to be in the Hall of Very Good.

[jrodsep]

Griffey (Mariners)

Martínez (Mariners)

Piazza (Mets)

Bagwell (Astros)

Kent (Giants)

Schilling (Red Sox)

McGriff (Braves)

Raines (Expos)

Hoffman (Padres)

[pmoehrin]

A little surprised that so many people want to put Schilling in as a Red Sox.

No doubt the bloody sock game is what people have in mind with that choice, but '04 was really the only great year he ever had with the Red Sox. He was a far better pitcher with both Philly and Arizona than he ever was with Boston.

My personal choice would be Arizona. With the Phillies I thought he was solid bordering on great, but he went to another level when he became a Diamondback.

In 2001 and 2002 the Diamonbacks featured the two best pitchers in baseball and its those two years that take Schilling from slightly above borderline status to slam dunk status.