Brian in Boston Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Well, if we're going to play "What if?", we might as well go all out. AFC EAST Baltimore Stars Buffalo Bills New England Patriots New York Jets AFC NORTH Cincinnati Bengals Cleveland Browns Indianapolis Colts Pittsburgh Steelers AFC SOUTH Houston Oilers Jacksonville Bulls Memphis Showboats Miami Dolphins AFC WEST Denver Broncos Kansas City Chiefs Los Angeles Raiders San Diego Chargers NFC EAST Detroit Lions New York Giants Philadelphia Eagles Washington Redskins NFC NORTH Chicago Bears Green Bay Packers St. Louis Cardinals Minnesota Vikings NFC SOUTH Atlanta Falcons Dallas Cowboys New Orleans Saints Tampa Bay Buccaneers NFC WEST Arizona Outlaws Los Angeles Rams San Francisco 49ers Seattle Seahawks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nflmich17 Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Which teams you wish were part the merged in both sports WHA:Winnipeg Jets,New England Whalers,Quebec Nordiques,Edmonton Oilers,Birmingham Bulls,Cincinnati Stingers,Indianapolis Racers ABA:,Denver Nuggets,New York Nets,San Antonio Spurs,Kentucky Colonels.Indiana Pacers,Spirits of St. Louis,Virginia Squires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_prankster Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 36 minutes ago, Nflmich17 said: Which teams you wish were part the merged in both sports WHA:Winnipeg Jets,New England Whalers,Quebec Nordiques,Edmonton Oilers,Birmingham Bulls,Cincinnati Stingers,Indianapolis Racers ABA:,Denver Nuggets,New York Nets,San Antonio Spurs,Kentucky Colonels.Indiana Pacers,Spirits of St. Louis,Virginia Squires Even if all of those teams were able to join the senior circuits, a good portion of them would still relocate later on. The Fictional Story of Austus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nflmich17 Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 I'm saying out of those teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_prankster Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, Nflmich17 said: I'm saying out of those teams It would probably be nice if the Colonels and Squires got to join along with the Nuggets, Spurs, Pacers and Nets. The Fictional Story of Austus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac the Knife Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 At the risk of turning this into a pointless realignment thread, I don't see them going to a 4x4 divisional alignment right away. The suddenness of a merger would cause that to go by the way side for a few years, at least until the first team moved afterward. I'd envision something more along the lines of... AFC Eastern: Baltimore Stars Buffalo Bills Jacksonville Bulls New England Patriots New York Jets Miami Dolphins Central Pittsburgh Steelers Cleveland Browns Cincinnati Bengals Houston Oilers Indianapolis Colts Western Denver Broncos Kansas City Chiefs Los Angeles Raiders San Diego Chargers Seattle Seahawks NFC Eastern Atlanta Falcons Philadelphia Eagles New York Giants Tampa Bay Buccaneers Washington Redskins Central Detroit Lions Green Bay Packers Chicago Bears Memphis Showboats Minnesota Vikings St. Louis Cardinals Western Arizona Outlaws Dallas Cowboys New Orleans Saints Los Angeles Rams San Francisco 49ers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMU Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 All these threads are being merged as they're all essentially talking about the same thing. Let's try not to flood the board with a bunch of similar threads at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_prankster Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 12 minutes ago, LMU said: All these threads are being merged as they're all essentially talking about the same thing. Let's try not to flood the board with a bunch of similar threads at once. Good idea. Thanks. The Fictional Story of Austus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalcowboyfan92 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 What brought this windfall of league merger threads in the first place? Curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwabel Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 6 minutes ago, Dalcowboyfan92 said: What brought this windfall of league merger threads in the first place? Curious. It is not difficult to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustDevil61 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 4 hours ago, Nflmich17 said: So i ask a question what USFL what could live in NFL & someone said merger & take best four teams Jacksonville Bulls,Memphis Showboats,Arizona Outlaws,Baltimore Stars so alignment them in NFL if you have a better alignment idea go hard & post it here. AFC AFC East:New England Patriots,New York Jets,Buffalo Bills,Indianapolis Colts AFC North:Cleveland Browns,Cincinnati Bengals,Pittsburgh Steelers,Memphis Showboats* AFC South:Miami Dolphins,Kansas City Chiefs,Houston Oilers,Jacksonville Bulls* AFC West:Denver Broncos,Los Angeles Raiders,San Diego Chargers,Seattle Seahawks NFC NFC East:New York Giants,Washington Redskins,Philadelphia Eagles,Dallas Cowboys NFC North:Chicago Bears,Minnesota Vikings,Detroit Lions,Green Bay Packers NFC West:Los Angeles Rams,San Francisco 49ers,St.Louis Cardinals,Arizona Outlaws* NFC South:Tampa Bay Buccaneers,Atlanta Falcons,New Orleans Saints,Baltimore Stars* There's no real easy way to align the top 4 USFL teams into the NFL circa 1986, but I'd keep Kansas City in the AFC West and move Memphis into that division. I'd also have to wonder if moving Seattle to the NFC and sending St. Louis to the NFC South would help. Of course, you can swap Baltimore and Memphis. So this would be how I'd do it: AFC East Buffalo Bills Indianapolis Colts New England Patriots New York Jets North Baltimore Stars* Cincinnati Bengals Cleveland Browns Pittsburgh Steelers South Houston Oilers Jacksonville Bulls* Memphis Showboats* Miami Dolphins West Denver Broncos, Kansas City Chiefs Los Angeles Raiders San Diego Chargers NFC East Dallas Cowboys Philadelphia Eagles NY Giants Washington Redskins North Chicago Bears Detroit Lions Green Bay Packers Minnesota Vikings South Atlanta Falcons New Orleans Saints St. Louis Cardinals Tampa Bay Buccaneers West Arizona Outlaws* Los Angeles Rams San Francisco 49ers Seattle Seahawks (*=from USFL) I'm willing to wager that, so long as everything else in the sports world plays out, Charlotte becomes a hot market for a relocated team and someone winds up there. I'd say the Cardinals are the top possibility, though any of the teams to move in the 1990s could just as easily move. AKA @LanRovr0 on Twitter LED Sig Credits to packerfan21396 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rich Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 On 1/26/2016 at 10:12 PM, Mac the Knife said: You rang? Short answer: it would've been an ABA-NBA style merger with not all teams allowed to join. Longer, more speculative answer: They'd have admitted four teams, tops: Arizona, Baltimore, Jacksonville and Memphis. The Bandits and Stallions ownership was in total disarray by the time of the trial's conclusion. Orlando would be out due to its proximity to Tampa. Portland doesn't get in because Jacksonville would. New Jersey doesn't get in due to its proximity to New York, and due to Donald Trump. Each of the four are cashed out for the equivalent of what an NFL expansion franchise of the era would be valued at (probably around $75 million apiece). Good answer, Mac, but I think it'd be a little different (by the way, this was covered about 4 years ago in a similar thread): http://boards.sportslogos.net/topic/81539-the-what-if-thread/?page=1 What we know at the time of the trial: By the time of the anti-trust trial, there were only nine (9) franchises left, and the USFL had tentative plans to play with only 8 franchises in the fall (the Chicago franchise, owned by Eddie Einhorn, was going to remain on hiatus as they were in 1985). The league was set up thus: Independence Division 1. Arizona Outlaws 2. Jacksonville Bulls(merged with Denver Gold) 3. Orlando Renegades 4. Tampa Bay Bandits Liberty Division 5. Baltimore Stars 6. Birmingham Stallions 7. Memphis Showboats 8. New Jersey Generals(merged with Houston Gamblers) 9. Chicago (franchise owned by Eddie Einhorn on hiatus) Now, as we all know, the jury in the case declared the NFL a "duly adjudicated illegal monopoly," and found that the NFL had willfully acquired and maintained monopoly status through predatory tactics. But, the jury awarded the USFL only one dollar in nominal damages, which was tripled under antitrust law to three dollars. It later emerged that the jury incorrectly assumed that the judge could increase the award. What if the jury did not rely on that incorrect assumption, and in fact decided to award the USFL a considerable amount of money, say something in the realm of $100-200 million, which then automatically trebled to $300-600 million? Let's say for arguments sake that happened. At that standpoint, rather than paying the damages directly to the USFL and allowing them (now flush with cash) to proceed on a fall schedule directly opposite the NFL, the NFL may have brokered a deal to allow a certain number of USFL teams into the league in lieu of paying the league the trebled fines. The New Orleans Saints were sold in 1985 for just over $70 million, so with that as a baseline franchise value, one could assume this could enable the horse-trading to begin. On that, Mac and I are on the same page. I would assume that not all of the nine remaining franchises would get in. Clearly, Tampa Bay and Birmingham, who were on shaky ground anyway, would be offered financial compensation to fold (especially Tampa Bay, which would have gone head to head with the Buccaneers). Orlando probably would have been offered a similar deal due to them being a 4th Florida franchise and a relatively small market too close to Tampa Bay. Arizona, Memphis, and Jacksonville were new markets for the NFL and likely could have made the jump. Baltimore would be a replacement for the recently departed Colts. Then is the point where Mac and I differ. Einhorn and Trump were the prime movers behind the suit and move to fall; there was no way that they would get left out of the deal to be in the NFL. Chicago would get a second NFL franchise (not named the Blitz; Einhorn had already stated he was going to change the name - http://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/31/sports/einhorn-heads-usfl-team.html). And the NFL owners would have to swallow hard and let Trump's New Jersey Generals in as a third NY-area franchise. Of course the horse trading would include territorial infringements payments to the NY and Chicago franchises and other details. Maybe a financial deal works out like this. Let's say the jury award was halfway between $300 and $600 million - $450 million. Each of the nine franchises would thus be entitled to $50 million without a merger deal. Remaining 6 teams pay $50 million each to 3 teams (Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Birmingham) to go away ($25 million per each remaining team). NFL allows remaining 6 teams into NFL with no "expansion fee". Trump: pays $25 million each to Jets and Giants for infringement. Einhorn: pays $25 million to Bears for territorial infringement. So, Trump gets an NY franchise in the NFL for "going rate" ($75 million cash outlay), Einhorn gets in for less ($50 million outlay) and the other 4 get in for peanuts ($25 million outlay), while the NFL is out NO CASH. Of course, this would have meant an immediate 6 team expansion of the NFL to an unwieldy 34 teams. At the time, the NFL had six divisions, so a quick fix for the first season would probably have been to assign one team to each division as such: AFC: East Buffalo Bills NY Jets New England Patriots Miami Dolphins Indianapolis Colts Baltimore Stars Central Cleveland Browns Pittsburgh Steelers Cincinnati Bengals Houston Oilers Chicago (Fire?) West LA Raiders Seattle Seahawks Denver Broncos San Diego Chargers Kansas City Chiefs Memphis Showboats NFC East Washington Redskins Philadelphia Eagles NY Giants Dallas Cowboys St. Louis Cardinals New Jersey Generals Central Minnesota Vikings Chicago Bears Green Bay Packers Detroit Lions Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jacksonville Bulls West San Francisco 49ers LA Rams Atlanta Falcons New Orleans Saints Arizona Outlaws Over time, the league may have been reconfigured to a 4 division set up with a 4-4-4-5 set up in each conference, but that's another story. What would this have entailed over time? Chronologically, this: 1. St. Louis Cardinals would not have moved to Arizona. Eventually, they may have threatened to move to--- Charlotte. 2. Jim Kelly doesn't play for the Bills; they do not go to 4 Super Bowls. 3. The expansion of 1995 does not occur. This may be the time frame when the Cardinals (if they never get a stadium) move to Charlotte. 4. The Raiders likely move back to Oakland, but the Rams move to St.Louis is much more unlikely. 5. The Browns do not move to Baltimore to become the Ravens, and are not replaced with an expansion/replacement franchise. 6. With a team in Tennessee, the Oilers are unlikely to move to Nashville. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac the Knife Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 25 minutes ago, B-Rich said: Good answer, Mac, but i think it'd be a little different (by the way, this was covered about 4 years ago in a similar thread): http://boards.sportslogos.net/topic/81539-the-what-if-thread/?page=1 What we know at the time of the trial: By the time of the anti-trust trial, there were only nine (9) franchises left, and the USFL had tentative plans to play with only 8 franchises in the fall (the Chicago franchise, owned by Eddie Einhorn, was going to remain on hiatus as they were in 1985). The league was set up thus: Independence Division 1. Arizona Outlaws 2. Jacksonville Bulls(merged with Denver Gold) 3. Orlando Renegades 4. Tampa Bay Bandits Liberty Division 5. Baltimore Stars 6. Birmingham Stallions 7. Memphis Showboats 8. New Jersey Generals(merged with Houston Gamblers) 9. Chicago (franchise owned by Eddie Einhorn on hiatus) Now, as we all know, the jury in the case declared the NFL a "duly adjudicated illegal monopoly," and found that the NFL had willfully acquired and maintained monopoly status through predatory tactics. But, the jury awarded the USFL only one dollar in nominal damages, which was tripled under antitrust law to three dollars. It later emerged that the jury incorrectly assumed that the judge could increase the award. What if the jury did not rely on that incorrect assumption, and in fact decided to award the USFL a considerable amount of money, say something in the realm of $100-200 million, which then automatically trebled to $300-600 million? Let's say for arguments sake that happened. At that standpoint, rather than paying the damages directly to the USFL and allowing them (now flush with cash) to proceed on a fall schedule directly opposite the NFL, the NFL may have brokered a deal to allow a certain number of USFL teams into the league in lieu of paying the league the trebled fines. The New Orleans Saints were sold in 1985 for just over $70 million, so with that as a baseline franchise value, one could assume this could enable the horse-trading to begin. On that, Mac and I are on the same page. I would assume that not all of the nine remaining franchises would get in. Clearly, Tampa Bay and Birmingham, who were on shaky ground anyway, would be be offered financial compensation to fold (especially Tampa Bay, which would have gone head to head with the Buccaneers). Orlando probably would have been offered a similar deal due to them being a 4th Florida franchise and a relatively small market too close to Tampa Bay. Arizona, Memphis, and Jacksonville were new markets for the NFL and likely could have made the jump. Baltimore would be a replacement for the recently departed Colts. Then is the point where Mac and I differ. Einhorn and Trump were the prime movers behind the suit and move to fall, there was no way that they would get left out of the deal to be in the NFL. Chicago would get a second NFL franchise (not named the Blitz; Einhorn had already stated he was going to change the name - http://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/31/sports/einhorn-heads-usfl-team.html). And the NFL owners would have to swallow hard and let Trump's New Jersey Generals in as a third NY-area franchise. Of course the horse trading would include territorial infringements payments to the NY and Chicago franchises and other details. Maybe a financial deal works out like this. Let's say the jury award was halfway between $300 and $600 million - $450 million. Each of the nine franchises would thus be entitled to $50 million without a merger deal. Remaining 6 teams pay $50 million each to 3 teams (Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Birmingham) to go away ($25 million per each remaining team). NFL allows remaining 6 teams into NFL with no "expansion fee". Trump: pays $25 million each to Jets and Giants for infringement. Einhorn: pays $25 million to Bears for territorial infringement. So, Trump gets an NY franchise in the NFL for "going rate" ($75 million cash outlay), Einhorn gets in for less ($50 million outlay) and the other 4 get in for peanuts ($25 million outlay), while the NFL is out NO CASH. Of course, this would have meant an immediate 6 team expansion of the NFL to an unwieldy 34 teams. At the time, the NFL had six divisions, so a quick fix for the first season would probably have been to assign one team to each division as such: AFC: East Buffalo Bills NY Jets New England Patriots Miami Dolphins Indianapolis Colts Baltimore Stars Central Cleveland Browns Pittsburgh Steelers Cincinnati Bengals Houston Oilers Chicago (Fire?) West LA Raiders Seattle Seahawks Denver Broncos San Diego Chargers Kansas City Chiefs Memphis Showboats NFC East Washington Redskins Philadelphia Eagles NY Giants Dallas Cowboys St. Louis Cardinals New Jersey Generals Central Minnesota Vikings Chicago Bears Green Bay Packers Detroit Lions Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jacksonville Bulls West San Francisco 49ers LA Rams Atlanta Falcons New Orleans Saints Arizona Outlaws Over time, the league may have been reconfigured to a 4 division set up with a 4-4-4-5 set up in each conference, but that's another story. What would this have entailed over time? Chronologically, this: 1. St. Louis Cardinals would not have moved to Arizona. Eventually, they may have threatened to move to--- Charlotte. 2. Jim Kelly doesn't play for the Bills; they do not go to 4 Super Bowls. 3. The expansion of 1995 does not occur. This may be the time frame when the Cardinals (if they never get a stadium) move to Charlotte. 4. The Raiders likely move back to Oakland, but the Rams move to St.Louis is much more unlikely. 5. The Browns do not move to Baltimore to become the Ravens, and are not replaced with an expansion/replacement franchise. 6. With a team in Tennessee, the Oilers are unlikely to move to Nashville. Yeah, we disagree - there's no way the Generals or "Blitz II: Electric Boogaloo" get in. Trump might, might have been given first right of refusal to buy the Jets or the Giants if they were ever to come up for sale, but Einhorn would've been shut out if for no other reason than he never had real skin in the USFL game (i.e., didn't lose real money). If there were another team I could've envisioned in an NFL/USFL merger, oddly it would have been the Oakland Invaders - had Tad Taube thought a merger a realistic possibility, I suspect he'd have kept them alive long enough to do such a deal... and I could easily see Oakland taking Jacksonville's slot as the "4th team" in such a merger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_prankster Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 2 hours ago, B-Rich said: Good answer, Mac, but i think it'd be a little different (by the way, this was covered about 4 years ago in a similar thread): http://boards.sportslogos.net/topic/81539-the-what-if-thread/?page=1 What we know at the time of the trial: By the time of the anti-trust trial, there were only nine (9) franchises left, and the USFL had tentative plans to play with only 8 franchises in the fall (the Chicago franchise, owned by Eddie Einhorn, was going to remain on hiatus as they were in 1985). The league was set up thus: Independence Division 1. Arizona Outlaws 2. Jacksonville Bulls(merged with Denver Gold) 3. Orlando Renegades 4. Tampa Bay Bandits Liberty Division 5. Baltimore Stars 6. Birmingham Stallions 7. Memphis Showboats 8. New Jersey Generals(merged with Houston Gamblers) 9. Chicago (franchise owned by Eddie Einhorn on hiatus) Now, as we all know, the jury in the case declared the NFL a "duly adjudicated illegal monopoly," and found that the NFL had willfully acquired and maintained monopoly status through predatory tactics. But, the jury awarded the USFL only one dollar in nominal damages, which was tripled under antitrust law to three dollars. It later emerged that the jury incorrectly assumed that the judge could increase the award. What if the jury did not rely on that incorrect assumption, and in fact decided to award the USFL a considerable amount of money, say something in the realm of $100-200 million, which then automatically trebled to $300-600 million? Let's say for arguments sake that happened. At that standpoint, rather than paying the damages directly to the USFL and allowing them (now flush with cash) to proceed on a fall schedule directly opposite the NFL, the NFL may have brokered a deal to allow a certain number of USFL teams into the league in lieu of paying the league the trebled fines. The New Orleans Saints were sold in 1985 for just over $70 million, so with that as a baseline franchise value, one could assume this could enable the horse-trading to begin. On that, Mac and I are on the same page. I would assume that not all of the nine remaining franchises would get in. Clearly, Tampa Bay and Birmingham, who were on shaky ground anyway, would be be offered financial compensation to fold (especially Tampa Bay, which would have gone head to head with the Buccaneers). Orlando probably would have been offered a similar deal due to them being a 4th Florida franchise and a relatively small market too close to Tampa Bay. Arizona, Memphis, and Jacksonville were new markets for the NFL and likely could have made the jump. Baltimore would be a replacement for the recently departed Colts. Then is the point where Mac and I differ. Einhorn and Trump were the prime movers behind the suit and move to fall, there was no way that they would get left out of the deal to be in the NFL. Chicago would get a second NFL franchise (not named the Blitz; Einhorn had already stated he was going to change the name - http://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/31/sports/einhorn-heads-usfl-team.html). And the NFL owners would have to swallow hard and let Trump's New Jersey Generals in as a third NY-area franchise. Of course the horse trading would include territorial infringements payments to the NY and Chicago franchises and other details. Maybe a financial deal works out like this. Let's say the jury award was halfway between $300 and $600 million - $450 million. Each of the nine franchises would thus be entitled to $50 million without a merger deal. Remaining 6 teams pay $50 million each to 3 teams (Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Birmingham) to go away ($25 million per each remaining team). NFL allows remaining 6 teams into NFL with no "expansion fee". Trump: pays $25 million each to Jets and Giants for infringement. Einhorn: pays $25 million to Bears for territorial infringement. So, Trump gets an NY franchise in the NFL for "going rate" ($75 million cash outlay), Einhorn gets in for less ($50 million outlay) and the other 4 get in for peanuts ($25 million outlay), while the NFL is out NO CASH. Of course, this would have meant an immediate 6 team expansion of the NFL to an unwieldy 34 teams. At the time, the NFL had six divisions, so a quick fix for the first season would probably have been to assign one team to each division as such: AFC: East Buffalo Bills NY Jets New England Patriots Miami Dolphins Indianapolis Colts Baltimore Stars Central Cleveland Browns Pittsburgh Steelers Cincinnati Bengals Houston Oilers Chicago (Fire?) West LA Raiders Seattle Seahawks Denver Broncos San Diego Chargers Kansas City Chiefs Memphis Showboats NFC East Washington Redskins Philadelphia Eagles NY Giants Dallas Cowboys St. Louis Cardinals New Jersey Generals Central Minnesota Vikings Chicago Bears Green Bay Packers Detroit Lions Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jacksonville Bulls West San Francisco 49ers LA Rams Atlanta Falcons New Orleans Saints Arizona Outlaws Over time, the league may have been reconfigured to a 4 division set up with a 4-4-4-5 set up in each conference, but that's another story. What would this have entailed over time? Chronologically, this: 1. St. Louis Cardinals would not have moved to Arizona. Eventually, they may have threatened to move to--- Charlotte. 2. Jim Kelly doesn't play for the Bills; they do not go to 4 Super Bowls. 3. The expansion of 1995 does not occur. This may be the time frame when the Cardinals (if they never get a stadium) move to Charlotte. 4. The Raiders likely move back to Oakland, but the Rams move to St.Louis is much more unlikely. 5. The Browns do not move to Baltimore to become the Ravens, and are not replaced with an expansion/replacement franchise. 6. With a team in Tennessee, the Oilers are unlikely to move to Nashville. In this scenario, what would become of Kurt Warner and Jay Gruden? The Fictional Story of Austus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykotyk Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I think the idea of 'top 4' USFL teams into the NFL is a bit off. The USFL won their case against the NFL. If the jury had listed any substantial monetary damages (which they thought the judge could do on their own) which would've been tripled under anti-trust law, the NFL wouldn't have had any leverage in a merger. In fact, the NFL would be begging for a merger and some sort of deferred payments and expansion fees in lieu of payments owed. The four stragglers who many here don't think would make it in the NFL easily could've found financial support given they were, via the outcome of the court case, either substantial monies owed by the NFL, or leverage into a lucrative spot in said league. The team with a lien on it? Easily could've had that satisfied with a spot in the NFL assured. And with a merger, those eight USFL teams would've had pulled a lot of rank against the NFL's 30 teams. They would, after all, be holding the monetary award over the NFL's head the entire time they negotiated their entrance into the league. They'd have gotten exactly what they wanted. Divisional alignment/placement, scheduling, etc. And no where could th NFL or it's teams argue "but we have rules" after a federal judge telling them their rules constituted anti-trust violations. They'd have had to relent. Even three teams at Giants Stadium. The Giants and Jets would've had to have just accepted it. They fight, they're back at square one in federal court with a decision already against them and the league. And territorial rights probably would've been thrown out just as easily as other anti-trust measures the NFL relied on back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac the Knife Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 That would have depended solely on the amount of the jury award, Sykotyk. Unless the jury award tops a billion (after trebling) would the USFL's members had that kind of leverage. Otherwise, each of the then-28 NFL clubs could have simply borrowed sufficient funds to pay the judgment off, allayed against future revenues, and wished the USFL good luck in competing against it. It would've hurt them like hell and put the USFL in a great position to supplant the NFL actually, but there's just no way the NFL completely buckles to the USFL like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykotyk Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 11 hours ago, Mac the Knife said: That would have depended solely on the amount of the jury award, Sykotyk. Unless the jury award tops a billion (after trebling) would the USFL's members had that kind of leverage. Otherwise, each of the then-28 NFL clubs could have simply borrowed sufficient funds to pay the judgment off, allayed against future revenues, and wished the USFL good luck in competing against it. It would've hurt them like hell and put the USFL in a great position to supplant the NFL actually, but there's just no way the NFL completely buckles to the USFL like that. Obviously. Let's say the jury awarded $200 million in damages. That's $600 million in late 80s recession money. That's a huge financial hit to the NFL. There's no way they'd have leverage. The USFL would get what they wanted, all eight active members (and since I forgot about Chicago still being shelved, through them in). The NFL might negotiate with 5 teams (a majority) to let them in and bump Trump and the Generals, but then we'd be right back where we started. NFL using their monopoly power to crush competition. They wouldn't win that second lawsuit, either. In fact, it would be much, much worse. In the late 80s, the NFL was nothing like it was today. It wasn't until the ubiquitous nature of VCRs and the advent of the personal computer in every home that we finally had a second form of outside entertainment entering homes that started to constrict viewership of traditional live television. The only thing that's held strong has been live sports. Which is why the NFL has skyrocketed in rights fees. It's in the prime demographic, for several hour chunks at a time and almost entirely viewed live. That wasn't the case in the 80s. The NFL didn't have the pull it did today. They piggybacked on so many MLB stadiums and the multi-use facility trend. The Patriots played in decrepit Foxboro Stadium. The Browns still played in aging Municipal Stadium. The Bears in ancient Soldier Field. A good number played in multi-use facilities: Altanta-Fulton County Stadium, Veterans Stadium, Riverfront Stadium, Three Rivers Stadium, Busch Stadium, Astrodome, Kingdome, Candlestick Park, Jack Murphy Stadium, and RFK Stadium (baseball use with the old Senators, though they vacated in the 70s). The 'high end' NFL stadiums were the Metrodome (though built for two sports, if you've been there, it's a football stadium first, baseball second in design, similar to Joe Robbie/ProPlayer/Dolphins/SunLife Stadium, and somewhat close to Mile High Stadium). Also, the Pontiac Silverdome, Superdome, Texas Stadium, Giants Stadium, Rich Stadium/Ralph Wilson Stadium, and Arrowhead Stadium. Lambeau Field was a joke, and they played games in Milwaukee frequently (at a baseball stadium). The Colts in the Hoosier/RCA Dome weren't really ever built for NFL, but it is built with football as the primary design idea. It was small. One of those stadiums built without a tenant already lined up, it was used to draw a team away. Similar to the baseball stadium in St. Petersburg (that's been by many names now) trying to draw the White Sox away, which failed. Until they finally got the Devil Rays. Just go back and look at the money the NFL had in the early mid-80s through mid-90s. The RCA Dome's naming rights were $10 million for ten years. And that was before the rights-fee explosion with the advent of the Fox Network that let the networks play against eachother. Cleveland Browns Stadium in 1999 opened for the cost of $200 million. Sure, the stadium was pared down a bit to get it designed and built quickly (the lack of escalators, for years, was a joke). But, that's the type of money being discussed. If the NFL, in 1985 had to pay out half a billion, there's no way lenders would be happy handing over that kind of cash to the NFL to give to their competition, whose primary goal would be the eventual demise of the NFL. Could you imagine a USFL in 1985 with half a billion between 8 or 9 teams? They would have their pick of any player they wanted. They already were drawing away some NFL level talent. With half a billion, investors would flock to them. There could be TEAMS that jump from NFL to USFL knowing they're on a potential sinking ship. The NFL had only been about 16 years from the NFL-AFL merger. It's not like the original AFL teams would have that much pride in the NFL after what they tried doing to them in the early 60s. And, a USFL flush with cash could easily entice some of the 'lesser' teams to jump. Being this is back before the days of a salary cap. Good teams were the ones with more fans and more money. So, the NFL would've bent over and let the USFL have their way. Any of their teams that wanted would be admitted. No matter how ridiculous or troublesome to current members. The Buccaneers might have sought a merger with the Bandits. Or, one of them relocated (as the market isn't nearly big enough for two teams, even in the 80s and those prices). But, at the end of it, the NFL wouldn't have had a leg to stand on facing a half billion judgement against them. The USFL would've probably had their way with the NFL and still be owed a deferred payment over a decade or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy! Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 22 hours ago, Mac the Knife said: Yeah, we disagree - there's no way the Generals or "Blitz II: Electric Boogaloo" get in. Trump might, might have been given first right of refusal to buy the Jets or the Giants if they were ever to come up for sale, but Einhorn would've been shut out if for no other reason than he never had real skin in the USFL game (i.e., didn't lose real money). If there were another team I could've envisioned in an NFL/USFL merger, oddly it would have been the Oakland Invaders - had Tad Taube thought a merger a realistic possibility, I suspect he'd have kept them alive long enough to do such a deal... and I could easily see Oakland taking Jacksonville's slot as the "4th team" in such a merger. Agreed. This sounds like a more reasonable argument. To think that more than four USFL teams would have gotten into the NFL is silly. "I secretly hope people like that hydroplane into a wall." - Dennis "Big Sexy" Ittner POTD - 7/3/14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykotyk Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 But, what leverage would the NFL have had? The idea that 'only four' would make it is ignoring the REASON why the the USFL team would have been admitted to the NFL. The NFL thought very little of the USFL, even when they were stealing a few of their players. These weren't teams the NFL felt necessary to add, at that time. Especially the primary culprit of 'let's compete with them until they let us in' the way the Generals were run. They wouldn't have let any team in before Trump's team. Where would the expansion money come from? The only way the USFL gets into the NFL was if they had a giant dollar figure to hold over the NFL's head. And all members of the USFL (including Chicago who I didn't realize were still officially hanging on, despite not planning to play the first fall schedule) would have wanted in. The value of getting into the NFL, en masse, would've been worth more than probably the expansion fee charged and the potential profit they could make over the years in exchange for them to 'look the other way' about the NFL's anti-competitive nature now they're part of it. The NBA/ABA deal, that you might forget, was fostered by 'buying off' the lesser teams with annual percentage of the television rights fees. Paid for BY the ABA teams that did get admitted into the NBA. I doubt the four USFL teams would hand over a chunk of their NFL television revenue to get into a league that owes them millions. Now, the NFL as a whole could broker a deal to exchange money owed to a team to let them in. But, you'd think if they overlooked the primary reason they wanted to compete with the NFL in the first place, they're going to face another lawsuit. Again for using their monopoly position to absorb the competition and continue to be anti-competitive in the face of the judgement. They would lose. There's no way they wouldn't lose unless those teams agreed to be treated differently than the teams getting a spot in the league and annual revenue/profits by being part of the NFL. Which is why the ABA teams that don't exist were offered buyouts, some including annual payments every year from television rights fees in exchange for not participating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMtexan09 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 My thought is this that if USFL teams were invited to merged with NFL like right now. I would say this is because of cities who could/might be the best options if relocation of NFL/USFL teams actually did right now. It would be like this in my own imagination. NFC NFC EAST Washington Redskins New York Giants Philadelphia Eagles Dallas Cowboys Orlando Renegades - Play at Citrus Bowl Stadium (61,348) NFC SOUTH Atlanta Falcons Carolina Panthers Tampa Bay Buccaneers New Orleans Saints Memphis Showboats - Play at Liberty Bowl (62,380) NFC NORTH Green Bay Packers Detroit Lions Minnesota Vikings Chicago Bears St. Louis Bulls - Play at Edward Jones Dome (66,000) (relocated from Jacksonville and replaced Rams) NFC WEST Seattle Seahawks Arizona Cardinals San Francisco 49ers Los Angeles Rams Las Vegas Outlaws - Play at Sam Boyd Stadium (40,000) (relocated from Arizona) AFC AFC EAST New England Patriots Miami Dolphins Buffalo Bills New York Jets New Jersey Generals - Play at High Point Solutions Stadium (52,454) AFC SOUTH Houston Texans Tennessee Titans Indianapolis Colts Jacksonville Jaguars Birmingham Stallions - Play at Legion Field Stadium (71,594) AFC NORTH Baltimore Ravens Pittsburgh Steelers Cleveland Browns Cincinnati Bengals Virginia Federals - Play at Scott Stadium (61,500) (relocated from Washington DC but still close to DC anyway) AFC WEST Los Angeles Chargers San Diego Raiders Kansas City Chiefs Denver Broncos Oakland Invaders - Play at O,co Stadium (56,057) (replaced Raiders) That's what I can really see these teams to play in specific areas. California got 5 teams (Luckiest State) gee. But that is my imagination anyway. FEAR THE FROG! LET'S GO TCU!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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