DC in Da House w/o a Doubt

2016 MLB Playoffs

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Why on Earth are the Sox wearing their blue alts? It's not even a Friday (even though I think those "rules" should be thrown out the window come October). 

 

Those blue alts (and their red ones, for that matter) would make great batting practice jerseys. As full time alts? They look terrible, especially in comparison to the far superior gray uniforms.

 

Indians do look great with the red brims, red undershirts, and red socks. Wish they had matching batting helmets though.

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53 minutes ago, kroywen said:

Why on Earth are the Sox wearing their blue alts? It's not even a Friday (even though I think those "rules" should be thrown out the window come October). 

 

Those blue alts (and their red ones, for that matter) would make great batting practice jerseys. As full time alts? They look terrible, especially in comparison to the far superior gray uniforms.

 

Indians do look great with the red brims, red undershirts, and red socks. Wish they had matching batting helmets though.

I also wish they had a name and logo that isn't an embarrassment. 

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20 minutes ago, BJ Sands said:

I also wish they had a name and logo that isn't an embarrassment. 

 

The C logo is bad but at least they use the great Chief Wahoo logo on their caps and jerseys.

 

As for their name, what do you have against Cleveland?

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At this point, I'm curious if MLB is enforcing some kind of one alt policy for these games. Some sort of youth outreach type deal, considering kids love the alts? 

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49 minutes ago, Ark said:

 

The C logo is bad but at least they use the great Chief Wahoo logo on their caps and jerseys.

 

As for their name, what do you have against Cleveland?

 

Oh, :censored: that noise.

 

indians-mascot.png

 

Cleveland-Indians.jpg

 

Little Red Sambo is a racist caricature, which you enjoy because its popular to hate on (which is why you enjoy the Rangers rip-off Penguins sweater, navy/copper/red Oilers, and the late-'70's Pirates). Age doesn't make it good, it makes it a relic of a time where it was OK to openly demean Native Americans. On top of all of that, it's simply an ugly cartoon logo with poor line weights, bad attempts at detailing, and a lot of rough qualities that aren't acceptable for modern cartoon logos. How hard is it to drill that into your skull? I dare you to look into life on a Reservation, and still think that Little Red Sambo is a good logo.

 

Oh, BTW, "Indians" is the problem name for some. The block C may be boring, but when the alternative is Little Red Sambo, I'll take it. Heck, there are many concepts that provide excellent alternatives to that racist piece of :censored:.

 

I hope a group of Native Americans protest a game, embarrass the Cleveland team, and the team continues to suffer in attendance until Little Red Sambo is condemned to the dumpster, where it should have gone decades ago.

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The Indians' block C has grown into a solid and unique look for them, imo. It's no more "boring" than the Cubs' and Reds' C, and some other teams' logos.

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My problem with the block C is it's just kind of "there". It doesn't stand out very well (whether it's red on navy or navy on red) and it's rather generic in its design, unlike the Cubs' or Reds' C's which are instantly recognizable. There's probably a million letterman jackets or high school football helmets that have a very similar "C" on them. There's just nothing particularly special about it.

 

I'm all for distancing away from Wahoo, but they really need to do more with a different mark than a "C" that looks like an intern typed out on MS Word in two seconds and asked, "eh, how's that?". I'd have preferred personally the "C" from the old 90's-00's "Cleveland" road script, or even the "I" like their old alt caps. If they HAVE to have the block C, though? At least put a white outline on it and make it a bit more visible.

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The difference between the Cubs and Reds C and the Indians C is that the Cubs and Reds C are legitimately classic and have been used consistently for decades. The Indians used a similar block C for a handful of seasons in the 1910s and in the late 70s and early 80s. The logo they used in the late 70s and early 80s is MUCH better than their current one because it had an outline.

 

bobby_bonds_indians.JPG

 

The C logo they are using right now is extremely boring and basically a fauxback.

 

The Chief Wahoo logo, on the other hand, is instantly recognizable and visually appealing. In fact, it is possibly the first "modern" sports logo. It isn't meant to insult anyone. 

 

What is your opinion on the Notre Dame Fighting Irish and their logo?

 

700px-ndleprechaunsvg.png

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11 minutes ago, Ark said:

The difference between the Cubs and Reds C and the Indians C is that the Cubs and Reds C are legitimately classic and have been used consistently for decades. The Indians used a similar block C for a handful of seasons in the 1910s and in the late 70s and early 80s. The logo they used in the late 70s and early 80s is MUCH better than their current one because it had an outline.

 

The C logo they are using right now is extremely boring and basically a fauxback.

 

The Chief Wahoo logo, on the other hand, is instantly recognizable and visually appealing. In fact, it is possibly the first "modern" sports logo. It isn't meant to insult anyone. 

 

What is your opinion on the Notre Dame Fighting Irish and their logo?

 

 

As for the first bolded point, somebody beat the Indians to it, namely the American Association Milwaukee Brewers

 

When Bill Veeck moved from the Brewers to the Indians, he brought the "modern logo design" with him, and thus Little Red Sambo was born. Had he known that Native Americans were subject to genuinely horrifying treatment from the government and from white people in general, being the progressive person he was, he probably wouldn't have commissioned Little Red Sambo's design.

 

I would also like to acquaint you with the idea of the "inferior other" in cartoons:

 

wwii_posters_safety_security_loose_talk_

cook.jpg

 

These are designs intended to caricature and demean non-white people. Wahoo has a lot in common with them, what with his big teeth, asinine expression, and his stereotypical features (i.e. the feather). He is totally demeaning Native Americans, in the same way that Jim Crow cartoons demean African-Americans, and WWII propaganda demeans the Japanese.

 

As for the second bolded point:

 

On 5/1/2012 at 6:41 PM, infrared41 said:

The "why aren't people as upset over the Fighting Irish" argument is just plain ignorant. It's nothing more than an attempt to justify marginalizing Native Americans. I'll ask this one more time; would any of Chief Wahoos supporters be as adamant in their defense of him under the following scenario?

We're moving this thread to a parallel time-line. In our parallel history, everything is exactly the same except: today's Cleveland baseball team is called the Negroes. In 1914, the team was still called the Spiders. The team decided to change their name in 1915. They wanted their name change to honor Moses Fleetwood Walker who, in our parallel time-line, had played for the Cleveland Spiders. So, to honor Walker, the team decided to go with a name commonly used to describe black people in 1915, the Negroes. In 1946 noted "zany promoter" Bill Veeck purchases the Negroes and commissions a new logo for the team. The new logo is named "Uncle Sambo." (pictured below)

princechawmin.jpg

Fast forward to 2012 in our parallel time-line. Remember, everything is exactly the same other than the aforementioned exceptions. OK, Wahoo supporters, using the same "logic" you use with Wahoo, make your case for Uncle Sambo. Good luck.

 

Infrared said it better than I ever could.

 

If you like Little Red Sambo, you're on the wrong side of history.

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The Indians are wearing Chief Wahoo caps tonight.

 

I thought that logo's usage was fully discountinued on all of their wardrobe and from team's logo sheets basically...

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3 hours ago, FinsUp1214 said:

My problem with the block C is it's just kind of "there". It doesn't stand out very well (whether it's red on navy or navy on red) and it's rather generic in its design, unlike the Cubs' or Reds' C's which are instantly recognizable. There's probably a million letterman jackets or high school football helmets that have a very similar "C" on them. There's just nothing particularly special about it.

 

I'm all for distancing away from Wahoo, but they really need to do more with a different mark than a "C" that looks like an intern typed out on MS Word in two seconds and asked, "eh, how's that?". I'd have preferred personally the "C" from the old 90's-00's "Cleveland" road script, or even the "I" like their old alt caps. If they HAVE to have the block C, though? At least put a white outline on it and make it a bit more visible.

 

3 hours ago, Ark said:

The difference between the Cubs and Reds C and the Indians C is that the Cubs and Reds C are legitimately classic and have been used consistently for decades. The Indians used a similar block C for a handful of seasons in the 1910s and in the late 70s and early 80s. The logo they used in the late 70s and early 80s is MUCH better than their current one because it had an outline.

 

bobby_bonds_indians.JPG

 

The C logo they are using right now is extremely boring and basically a fauxback.

 

The Chief Wahoo logo, on the other hand, is instantly recognizable and visually appealing. In fact, it is possibly the first "modern" sports logo. It isn't meant to insult anyone. 

 

 

That's why I said the Indians' block C has grown into a solid and unique look for them so far, imo. The longer they go with it, the more recognizable it will be. I like it better with no white outline also. Looks clean, sharp, and unique. The white outline is pointless and takes away from the look.

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If Chief Wahoo was truly offensive he would have been removed by now.

 

It seems to me the same as the Washington Redskins: a vocal group of people dislike it and it's a great political talking point, but the great majority of people either like it or don't care. 

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8 minutes ago, Ark said:

If Chief Wahoo was truly offensive he would have been removed by now.

 

It seems to me the same as the Washington Redskins: a vocal group of people dislike it and it's a great political talking point, but the great majority of people either like it or don't care. 

 

Well, why do you think the team is pushing the "block C" right now? Why is Wahoo no longer the primary logo, and why is the "block C" the only logo that shows up on their division championship gear? They are trying to remove Wahoo eventually, but because they built so much of their identity around that racist piece of :censored:, they can't do it in one fell swoop.

 

I would think that like the Washington Football Team, a majority of people tend to dislike it, and that majority is only growing. Once again, I dare you to learn about life on Indian Reservations, take a Native American history course, or gain some basic understanding as to why people don't like Little Red Sambo, and they want to see him go away.

 

Get it through your skull that Little Red Sambo is a racist piece of :censored:, and that you are complicit in the oppression of Native Americans if you like it or buy merchandise with it. After spending the better part of 400 years trying to wipe out the Native Americans, maybe it'd be nice to listen to what they have to say about their representation in the media.

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The living conditions on Indian reservations are horrible. But changing a sports name and logo won't change that in any way. 

 

You are worrying about first world problems. Many Native Americans today are in poverty. 

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16 minutes ago, Ark said:

The living conditions on Indian reservations are horrible. But changing a sports name and logo won't change that in any way. 

 

You are worrying about first world problems. Many Native Americans today are in poverty. 

 

It doesn't mean the two goals are mutually exclusive. You can help impoverished Native Americans in real, physical ways (i.e. charities and volunteer work, joining protests of government policy, and educational service), while also worrying about their representation in the media (i.e. sports teams named after them). We can worry about all of these problems at the same time. Not for one second does anybody think that changing a name or logo will alter the current state of Native Americans. But it is a step towards bringing their state to the attention of a largely-unaware public. Sambo went away through the power of advocacy, even though Sambo's disappearance didn't change much for African-Americans.

 

The Indians could use their name as an opportunity to educate the public on Native American history and culture, while having players go out to help on reservations. They can turn their name towards good works, and one good work would be adopting a visual identity that effectively and tastefully uses Native American imagery. Wahoo is about as tasteful as a Jim Crow cartoon. By tastefully adopting Native American imagery with Native American consent (basically what the Spokane Indians did), the Indians can use their advantageous position as a sports team to promote advocacy on behalf of Native Americans. Removing Wahoo and reaching out to the Native American communities would be an excellent goal for the Indians.

 

Mods, I apologize if I've helped to derail this thread while violating the Native American mascot rule.

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16 hours ago, insert name said:

Do the Blue Jays intend on wearing the blue uniforms throughout the entire ride? 

Probably until they lose.  I hope we see some white at home soon even if they return 2-0.

 

Personally, I love the blues for day games, which worked for game 1.  Greys look nice under the lights, & of course their whites would look spectacular even if Rogers Centre was on fire.

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It's important to remember that not everyone agrees with you that Chief Wahoo is racist. It's just simple as that. It wasn't created to be racist, and many people just aren't offended by it.

 

Obviously I don't think the Fighting Irish name and logo are racist. I just used that as an arguing point. But your argument as to why the Indians are racist but the Fighting Irish aren't was basically "because I said so."  It's not up to you what is and isn't racist. Chief Wahoo is a classic and extremely popular logo and will never go away. There are many other ways to help Native Americans without worrying about professional sports logos. 

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40 minutes ago, Ark said:

It's important to remember that not everyone agrees with you that Chief Wahoo is racist. It's just simple as that. It wasn't created to be racist, and many people just aren't offended by it.

 

Obviously I don't think the Fighting Irish name and logo are racist. I just used that as an arguing point. But your argument as to why the Indians are racist but the Fighting Irish aren't was basically "because I said so."  Chief Wahoo is a classic and extremely popular logo and will never go away. There are many other ways to help Native Americans without worrying about professional sports logos. 

 

Oh I know not everybody agrees with me. I just want you to temper your praise of Little Red Sambo, and think critically as to why people would find the logo archaic and disgusting. That's all. Besides, the "Fighting Irish" nickname gained a degree of consent from a largely Catholic (especially Irish Catholic) student body. The Indians have never had that association with actual Native Americans, aside from that largely-apocryphal Sockalexis appropriation.

 

On that bolded point, give it time. Look at all the "block C" merchandise and images around their stadium (which have started to outnumber Wahoo), and see for yourself that Wahoo's days are numbered. Money, or lack thereof, talks.

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Boy I sure am glad this thread turned into chief wahoo chat

 

(I have strong opinions about it but none of you care, just like I don't care about your thoughts on it in this, the MLB playoffs thread)

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40 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

By tastefully adopting Native American imagery with Native American consent (basically what the Spokane Indians did), the Indians can use their advantageous position as a sports team to promote advocacy on behalf of Native Americans. Removing Wahoo and reaching out to the Native American communities would be an excellent goal for the Indians.

 

Pretty much this. Chief Wahoo's time in the spotlight is about to end (and probably should for the best), but the name doesn't necessarily have to go as well. The Spokane Indians do an excellent job at maintaining a well-tolerated identity and it would be great if Cleveland followed suit.

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