2016 MLB Playoffs

[SFGiants58]

1 hour ago, Bucfan56 said:

I'm not really trying to take a side either way but on the Wahoo debate (I can totally see the reasons why people don't like it), but I had kind of an interesting observation on the logo once. 

 

I used to live in the Phoenix area and worked at just about every Lids store out there. Every store I worked at had an inordinate amount of Cleveland Indians Wahoo caps for sale. It was confusing to me for awhile, but after some time I figured out why. It was because there were quite a few large reservations around the area, and a lot of people who lived on the reservations or associated with the reservations would come in and buy Chief Wahoo gear. They liked it because it was something that they felt represented them and it helped them show the pride they had in their culture. 

 

As a white guy, I don't really have a lot of room to comment on minority racial issues or judge if someone else or other groups should or shouldn't feel offended by certain types of symbolism. But it was interesting to me that there were quite a few people out there who were closely tied with Native American culture who took a certain level of pride in having a sports team represent that culture with a logo. 

 

Again, not trying to take a side, just making an observation. 

 

Thank you. No seriously, thank you. The articles and the observations have really broadened my understanding of the issue. I'm still anti-Wahoo from an aesthetic and ethical perspective (I'm white, so maybe I really shouldn't judge on the latter), but I'm happy to know that the issue has its complexities and that there isn't blanket approval or disapproval of Native American mascots and logos from Native American communities. I like learning about these things. I'm just sorry I had to get super argumentative and aggressive for that to happen.

 

Now, to bring this back around, which road uniform will the Dodgers wear tonight?

 

I'm hoping for the "Los Angeles" one.

[GriffinM6]

Chief Wahoo can be done without being racist. Below is San Diego State's logo from 1997-2001.

 

Yes, they made his skin red, which was a mistake, but if they make his skin tone an accurate color, then I have no problem with Cleveland using something like this. The facial design is in no way shaming indigenous people. It's depicting an Aztec warrior looking noble and proud. 

[Ark]

 

@Ice_Cap

 

Yes, but the current version of Chief Wahoo was in their logoset in 1948. So your idea that they haven't won with the current Chief Wahoo, just isn't true.

 

[IceCap]

1 minute ago, Ark said:

Yes, but the current version of Chief Wahoo was in their logoset in 1948. So your idea that they haven't won with the current Chief Wahoo, just isn't true.

He's never been on a World Championship Cleveland Indians uniform. That was my point. 

[Ark]

14 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

He's never been on a World Championship Cleveland Indians uniform. That was my point. 

 

Well ok. But the truth is more complicated than that.

 

They should just win the World Series already so this stops mattering altogether lol

[FGM13]

12 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

He's never been on a World Championship Cleveland Indians uniform. That was my point. 

And even if he has, they've had a really really long stretch of futility behind Wahoo after that anyway.

[infrared41]

21 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

Quote

The "why aren't people as upset over the Fighting Irish" argument is just plain ignorant. It's nothing more than an attempt to justify marginalizing Native Americans. I'll ask this one more time; would any of Chief Wahoos supporters be as adamant in their defense of him under the following scenario?

We're moving this thread to a parallel time-line. In our parallel history, everything is exactly the same except: today's Cleveland baseball team is called the Negroes. In 1914, the team was still called the Spiders. The team decided to change it's name in 1915. The team wanted it's name change to honor Moses Fleetwood Walker who, in our parallel time-line, had played for the Cleveland Spiders. So, to honor Walker, the team decided to go with a name commonly used to describe black people in 1915, the Negroes. In 1946 noted "zany promoter" Bill Veeck purchases the Negroes and commissions a new logo for the team. The new logo is named "Uncle Sambo." (pictured below)

Fast forward to 2012 in our parallel time-line. Remember, everything is exactly the same other than the aforementioned exceptions. OK, Wahoo supporters, using the same "logic" you use with Wahoo, make your case for Uncle Sambo. Good luck.

 

Infrared said it better than I ever could.

 

If you like Little Red Sambo, you're on the wrong side of history.

 

So infrared sees this and then takes a look at his own sig.  Upon viewing his sig, infrared thinks "wow, what a hypocrite I am."  Seriously though, I guess I could have quietly changed my sig and not drawn attention to my own hypocrisy, but that would have been dishonest. Full disclosure, this is the picture I was using in my sig when I saw the quoted post. 

 

 

Anyone who knows me around here knows that I love retro logos. To be honest, I did go back and forth over using the logo in my sig. In the end, retro won out, but it shouldn't have. I've removed the Wahoo picture from my sig and replaced it with the old wishbone C. And I still stand by what I said back in 2012. 

[AstroCree]

I really wish the Dodgers would wear the LA uniforms again. The blue piping on the sleeve makes a big difference because their alternatives feel so unfinished. Same thing with the Red Sox. They need to bring back the red piping on the away uniforms because it also looks unfinished. 

[rxmc89]

Kenley Jansen's hat has no New Era logo on it.  He must have ripped it off.  Hopefully more players do the same.

[HighCheese]

I love the dodger road alts

every time they wear the los angeles ones, which isnt too often (last 6 road gsmes they wore them ), im disappointed 

 

i love the cleanness of them. I like the lack of blue piping and the larger Dodgers script 

[Ben in LA]

1 minute ago, HighCheese said:

I love the dodger road alts

every time they wear the los angeles ones, which isnt too often (last 6 road gsmes they wore them ), im disappointed 

 

i love the cleanness of them. I like the lack of blue piping and the larger Dodgers script 

Actually it seems as if they wear the alts more than the primaries.  Personally I prefer the Los Angeles script.

[63Bulldogs63]

4 hours ago, rxmc89 said:

Kenley Jansen's hat has no New Era logo on it.  He must have ripped it off.  Hopefully more players do the same.

More than likely he's wearing his regular season cap. I'm pretty sure the patch treatment on these caps is same as recent years, glued on. The new era flag is actually sown on to the caps. New era has made it so retailers can actually glue the patches on to their inventory of stock themselves in recent years.

[Thomas]

10 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

This is the uniform set the Indians wore during their first of two World Series championships.

 

 

 

Hey, look at that! A block "C"!

 

Here's the uniform set they wore during their second and most recent World Series Championship in 1948.

 

 

 

Now let's look at that uniform. Wahoo in his current form doesn't appear anywhere on it. The cap uses a red wishbone "C" outlined in white on a navy background. The sleeve logo is a version of Wahoo, but it's the previous version.

 

So I stand by my initial claim that Chief Wahoo as we currently know him has never been worn by a Cleveland Indians World Championship team. Now if you want to argue that the previous version of Wahoo has some Championship cache, go for it. It's even more of a racist, exaggerated cartoon than the current version though, so that may not be in your best interest.

I don´t see the chief is racist, not then not now. The logo is just a Caricature : 

A caricature is a rendered image showing the features of its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way through sketching, pencil strokes or through other artistic drawings.

In literature, a caricature is a description of a person using exaggeration of some characteristics and oversimplification of others.^[1]

[BJ Sands]

5 hours ago, Thomas said:

I don´t see the chief is racist, not then not now. The logo is just a Caricature : 

A caricature is a rendered image showing the features of its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way through sketching, pencil strokes or through other artistic drawings.

In literature, a caricature is a description of a person using exaggeration of some characteristics and oversimplification of others.^[1]

A smiling, red-faced cartoon/caricature of a Native American isn't racist? You need to relearn history. 

 

I think some people on this board are trapped in a bubble where they can't see how a logo is actually perceived beyond how its design is executed. This seems like one of those times. 

[Thomas]

2 hours ago, BJ Sands said:

A smiling, red-faced cartoon/caricature of a Native American isn't racist? You need to relearn history. 

 

I think some people on this board are trapped in a bubble where they can't see how a logo is actually perceived beyond how its design is executed. This seems like one of those times. 

This Indian is smiling, a friendly looking face. I just read through some history books as you told me to, it looks like many Indians were pretty brutal and savage. They could have chosen to let Chief Wahoo look like a maniac, but they put a smile on his face instead.

They could adjust the color a bit so he wasn't so red, but then it perhaps would not fit the jersey, i don´t know .

[generalshepherd141]

How about them Cubs?

[habsfan1]

From what I've read, the term "Redskin" in definition is considered to some an offensive slang the same way the N-word can be considered offensive to us. I started to see where all of this is coming from. But I also read that the history is quite old, so many people grew up assuming it's just a regular descriptive term without any negative connotations. It seems to be a double-standard, but the protests were not publicized until recently. So now, I'm like wtf?

 

So now some people are against Chief Wahoo because he's colored red. But that's the Indians color scheme.

[AstroCree]

I think the Cardinals are the only team to get away without having any piping on their away uniforms

[Around the Horn]

What is with all the alternates in these games?

 

[twi]

13 hours ago, habsfan1 said:

From what I've read, the term "Redskin" in definition is considered to some an offensive slang the same way the N-word can be considered offensive to us. I started to see where all of this is coming from. But I also read that the history is quite old, so many people grew up assuming it's just a regular descriptive term without any negative connotations. It seems to be a double-standard, but the protests were not publicized until recently. So now, I'm like wtf?

 

So now some people are against Chief Wahoo because he's colored red. But that's the Indians color scheme.

As for whether that term is offensive slang, I've found a good rule of thumb in my 29 years to be "don't say something that you wouldn't say to the person's face." I certainly wouldn't call someone a redskin face to face, so I include it on my personal list of no-goes.