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New Helmet enters the NFL


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43 minutes ago, BrianLion said:

As an aside, I don't think you're ever going to eliminate concussions in the NFL with equipment. Unless of course you go through the effort to create some kind of airbag inside a person's head to keep the person's brain from smashing into the side of their skull, which as you can imagine would come with it's own host of problems (good luck being the first guy to test that).  It's always going to be about lessening them to some sort of acceptable degree through the use of equipment improvements.  I think this new helmet might be a step towards that.

 

I agree completely with the first part, but strongly disagree with the second.  If you can't stop the impact of the brain against the skull with equipment improvements (which you can't), then the solution is lessening those impact through rule changes.  Reduce the impact of collisions by reducing their number.

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I wonder whether there's any legitimate way to compare American Football with sports like Rugby and Ausie Rules football.  They wear a lot less padding, but for all I know, they have worse/more frequent incidences of head trauma.

 

Not being a researcher, I don't know, but it seems like there's a comparison to be made between those sports and our football.

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1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

Fair enough.  Or they've bought the spin of those with a financial interest.

 

 

I think you're absolutely correct here.  Which is why I've been saying for years that less equipment, not more or better equipment, is the only real long-term solution.

So rather than concussions and CTE, you want those and scull fractures sounds fun to me

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29 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

I wonder whether there's any legitimate way to compare American Football with sports like Rugby and Ausie Rules football.  They wear a lot less padding, but for all I know, they have worse/more frequent incidences of head trauma.

 

Not being a researcher, I don't know, but it seems like there's a comparison to be made between those sports and our football.

I got one concussion playing 4 years of football, I played rugby one time and got a concussion. It was a cheap shot, blind side hit by a guy away from the ball but still

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55 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

I wonder whether there's any legitimate way to compare American Football with sports like Rugby and Ausie Rules football.  They wear a lot less padding, but for all I know, they have worse/more frequent incidences of head trauma.

 

Not being a researcher, I don't know, but it seems like there's a comparison to be made between those sports and our football.

Or compare traumatic head injuries, deaths, etc. from no helmet days / leather helmet days / first plastic helmets / suspension helmets / etc... 

I'll give you a hint.. They've improved tremendously

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On 5/13/2017 at 8:24 PM, #ConceptLeagues said:

Vic.png

 

The new helmet is aesthetically pleasing. It had a normal-looking facemask and a smooth surface for decals. Can't ask for much more than that these days

 

The rest of the conversation about "the nature of football and concussions" can kindly be taken to the Sports in General forum. 

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1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

Wow.  That's really something.

Again, I'm not sure what exactly you're suggesting, but you're demanding levels of concrete evidence that simply don't or can't exist.. Comparing and reconstructing on-field impacts in a controlled and testable lab setting presents its own share of issues.. Additionally the number of different types of impacts, varying speeds, rotational forces, etc create too many scenarios to produce any DEFINITIVE answer for anything.. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.. You also have to account for different playing conditions, different helmet finishes, different helmet shapes, the different amounts of air each player has pumped into their helmet, each individual's likelihood of getting a concussion, other factors that can be related, such as neck length, neck strength, amount of space in the subarachnoid cavity within the spinal column of each individual, and an entire host of other potential factors on the periphery of the issue.. What affects one might not affect another the same way.. Certain people are more susceptible to brain injury than others.. These factors make it nearly impossible to even test thoroughly, much less provide the "hard evidence" that would be required to satisfy you.. It almost seems as though you're being overly demanding with your request for hard evidence, as you've been completely dismissive of very valid points mentioned by myself as well as others.. You can't take concussions out of football just like you can't take them out of basketball, baseball, yard work, or vacuuming.. Sometimes they're gonna happen, and that doesn't mean granny needs a vicis helmet to unload the dishwasher, it just means that mitigation and limitation are good enough.. Are we there yet? Absolutely not.. Can we get there? Maybe.. Probably won't anytime soon.. But the issues I've noticed and the improvements I would suggest are not ones based on sales or marketability.. They're based on logic, common sense, and a desire to make the game safer for my players.. I've gotten concussions in two different sports (football and wrestling) at the college level, and I work closely with football equipment on a daily basis.. That's the hardest evidence I can provide, but it might be the most concrete evidence that exists..

That doesn't mean I disagree that the game can be made safer through rule changes, it just means that I truly believe equipment can be improved enough to make an improvement as well.

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53 minutes ago, WavePunter said:

Or compare traumatic head injuries, deaths, etc. from no helmet days / leather helmet days / first plastic helmets / suspension helmets / etc... 

I'll give you a hint.. They've improved tremendously

That would be difficult since that stuff was barely recorded then.  Plus now we have PED-using 300-pounders running 4.4 40s.  It's probably worse now but the comparison may not be fair.

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38 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

That would be difficult since that stuff was barely recorded then.  Plus now we have PED-using 300-pounders running 4.4 40s.  It's probably worse now but the comparison may not be fair.

It's definitely not worse now.. As stated before, it's tremendously better.. 

Also, I wanna see a 300 lber run a 4.4.. 

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4 hours ago, WavePunter said:

Again, I'm not sure what exactly you're suggesting, but you're demanding levels of concrete evidence that simply don't or can't exist.. Comparing and reconstructing on-field impacts in a controlled and testable lab setting presents its own share of issues.. Additionally the number of different types of impacts, varying speeds, rotational forces, etc create too many scenarios to produce any DEFINITIVE answer for anything.. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.. You also have to account for different playing conditions, different helmet finishes, different helmet shapes, the different amounts of air each player has pumped into their helmet, each individual's likelihood of getting a concussion, other factors that can be related, such as neck length, neck strength, amount of space in the subarachnoid cavity within the spinal column of each individual, and an entire host of other potential factors on the periphery of the issue.. What affects one might not affect another the same way.. Certain people are more susceptible to brain injury than others.. These factors make it nearly impossible to even test thoroughly, much less provide the "hard evidence" that would be required to satisfy you.. It almost seems as though you're being overly demanding with your request for hard evidence, as you've been completely dismissive of very valid points mentioned by myself as well as others.. You can't take concussions out of football just like you can't take them out of basketball, baseball, yard work, or vacuuming.. Sometimes they're gonna happen, and that doesn't mean granny needs a vicis helmet to unload the dishwasher, it just means that mitigation and limitation are good enough.. Are we there yet? Absolutely not.. Can we get there? Maybe.. Probably won't anytime soon.. But the issues I've noticed and the improvements I would suggest are not ones based on sales or marketability.. They're based on logic, common sense, and a desire to make the game safer for my players.. I've gotten concussions in two different sports (football and wrestling) at the college level, and I work closely with football equipment on a daily basis.. That's the hardest evidence I can provide, but it might be the most concrete evidence that exists..

That doesn't mean I disagree that the game can be made safer through rule changes, it just means that I truly believe equipment can be improved enough to make an improvement as well.

 

Statements like this exemplify why the service department manager at my local dealership is not the lead R&D engineer running the vehicle safety and crash testing program back at HQ.

 

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7 minutes ago, guest23 said:

 

Statements like this exemplify why the service department manager at my local dealership is not the lead R&D engineer running the vehicle safety and crash testing program back at HQ.

 

The service department manager and the ones who actually perform the service are likely very different people.. The service department manager at the dealership I used to work at knew very little about cars, but was a great people-person and kept things running smoothly, while the GM-certified service techs handled all  the actual service..

I'm a one-man operation, so I personally do all the maintenance and repairs on the equipment.. I also have an extensive athletic career and a degree in biology, so I've got a fairly broad and deep set of credentials to have valid input in this discussion.. I doubt your service manager back at the dealership is as equipped to weigh in on vehicle safety and crash testing programs as I am football helmets.. 

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10 hours ago, WavePunter said:

The service department manager and the ones who actually perform the service are likely very different people.. The service department manager at the dealership I used to work at knew very little about cars, but was a great people-person and kept things running smoothly, while the GM-certified service techs handled all  the actual service..

I'm a one-man operation, so I personally do all the maintenance and repairs on the equipment.. I also have an extensive athletic career and a degree in biology, so I've got a fairly broad and deep set of credentials to have valid input in this discussion.. I doubt your service manager back at the dealership is as equipped to weigh in on vehicle safety and crash testing programs as I am football helmets.. 

 

You've demonstrated that you're not qualified to speak on the matter given that all of your rationale is based on unproven hypotheses, wild ass assumptions/guesses, and "common sense". There's a reason the brain injury studies are run by neuroscientists, kinesiologists, and engineers that apply actual scientific principles and collect extensive amounts of data on the subject matter as opposed to leaving it to a bunch of equipment managers to solve.

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1 hour ago, guest23 said:

 

You've demonstrated that you're not qualified to speak on the matter given that all of your rationale is based on unproven hypotheses, wild ass assumptions/guesses, and "common sense". There's a reason the brain injury studies are run by neuroscientists, kinesiologists, and engineers that apply actual scientific principles and collect extensive amounts of data on the subject matter as opposed to leaving it to a bunch of equipment managers to solve.

You're correct.. The brain injury studies are conducted by neuroscientists, kinesiologists, and engineers.. But the helmet design process is not conducted by these same individuals.. It is conducted by helmet manufacturers trying to sell products.. And these products sell well.. VERY WELL.. So there's little reason for them to incorporate better-qualified professionals into the process, especially if it will increase their cost of operation and affect their bottom line.. The SpeedFlex is flying off the shelves, and it's not the best helmet.. Why would Riddell want to cut their profit margin by including advanced technology (that they're already claiming they have) that costs them more to design and produce? 

I've never claimed to be an authority on brain injuries.. I've only claimed to be an authority on football helmets.. I've seen and experienced, first hand, the affects of numerous helmet models, various types of padding, proper/improper fit, and even paint finish on a helmet and its wearer.. I've sat through numerous concussion awareness and prevention seminars (for two sports), and I've experienced concussions and their causes first hand.. Again, I'm no authority on brain injuries, but I am absolutely certain that legitimate advancements can be made in equipment..

Noticing that a helmet's "advanced technology" is absent from the front pad, where it is most needed, is not a wild ass assumption or guess.. Noticing that matte finish paints cause more friction and (in a very limited study) more concussions is also not a wild ass assumption or guess.. And the knowledge that reducing the severity of impacts will reduce the severity of brain injuries is not an unproven hypothesis.. 

I've made it clear that no helmet can prevent concussions, but the helmets we have can absolutely be improved.. If you choose to discount my rationale, experience, evidence, and opinions, that's ok.. But it doesn't make it any less true.

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There seems to be two distinct discussions going on here. One concerns new NFL helmets (actual helmet models, not helmet design) and the other concerns the NFL brian damage debate and the roll helmet technology plays in that.

 

Both discussions are fine, and no one's crossed any lines. 

The thread itself was just devoid of any actual design discussion. So it's been moved from "Sports Logos" to "Sports in General."

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I'm glad this popped back up because this weekend I was floating on a pool raft made out of very thick foam rubber and I thought "why don't they just make football helmets out of this?"

 

IF the issue is that hard shells only serve to create concussions by causing the brain sloshing around in the skull due to centralized impact contact then why not use a softer material to dissipate the impact over the two helmets

 

This basically, but almost twice as thick thick and with some kind of facial protection

s-l300.jpg

 

This would also be applied to shoulder pads, which are also hard, but they're only hard because they have to be to protect from the other players' helmets. 

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I would argue (and have attempted to do so) that the biggest threat of concussions is not at all related to helmets but rather two bodies running into each other at full force (tackles, blocking, etc.).  Head-to-head contact was a big culprit maybe 15 years ago, but I feel the NFL's rule changes are helping the cause as players are not leading with their helmets and using them as weapons anymore.

 

Having said that, while the soft helmet would not solve that issue, I like it and think it would help improve safety overall.  Players would be apprehensive to play at full speed, and they may brace themselves for hits accordingly.  As mentioned previously, players think they're invincible.  There is a prominent writer on Packers.com who says that he'd recommend playing without facemasks to eliminate that effect.

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